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Climate Change from CO2 - it's Hard to Refute the Actual Data

Check your zealotry. I believe the 21st century solar/GCR climate paradigm is replacing the 19th century AGW climate paradigm. You and your fellow AGW believers will join the Earth-centrists, the phrenologists, the eugenicists and creationists (among so many others) in the collection of curiosities.

NB: Don't forget phlogiston!

I had to look up "phlogiston"....you seem to think there was something wrong with the concept as a scientific theory...It explained a great deal. It was a solid scientific theory until further evidence indicated that it was inaccurate. That's how science works. It's the strength of science that hypotheses and theories can be altered or overturned as new information becomes available.

You are NOT bringing new evidence to the table...you present concepts which lack scientific rigor in determining their validity. Science quacks do that sort of thing...charlatans. Magic potions, arcane "cures" for cancer in Mexico. Suggesting government conspiracy theories, like Roswell NM. A smart person will dismiss them all for what they are....BS. That's you and your political movement.
 
Do you have any source material which does not come from a biased, non-peer-reviewed blog web site? Give us something from a University research department, NASA or some other credible scientific source....Otherwise I will not read it...

Of course you won't. It's not part of the approved catechism. You exhibit great discomfort when you are led beyond it.

International Journal of Atmospheric Sciences
Volume 2017 (2017), Article ID 9251034, 30 pages
https://doi.org/10.1155/2017/9251034[FONT=&quot]Research Article[/FONT]
[h=2]Radiation Transfer Calculations and Assessment of Global Warming by CO2[/h][FONT=&quot]Hermann Harde[/FONT]
Experimental Physics and Materials Science, Helmut-Schmidt-University, Holstenhofweg 85, 22043 Hamburg, Germany
Correspondence should be addressed to Hermann Harde
Received 29 June 2016; Revised 3 October 2016; Accepted 1 November 2016; Published 20 March 2017
Academic Editor: Bin Yu
Copyright © 2017 Hermann Harde. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
[h=4]Abstract[/h]
We present detailed line-by-line radiation transfer calculations, which were performed under different atmospheric conditions for the most important greenhouse gases water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, and ozone. Particularly cloud effects, surface temperature variations, and humidity changes as well as molecular lineshape effects are investigated to examine their specific influence on some basic climatologic parameters like the radiative forcing, the long wave absorptivity, and back-radiation as a function of an increasing CO2concentration in the atmosphere. These calculations are used to assess the CO2 global warming by means of an advanced two-layer climate model and to disclose some larger discrepancies in calculating the climate sensitivity. Including solar and cloud effects as well as all relevant feedback processes our simulations give an equilibrium climate sensitivity of

= 0.7°C (temperature increase at doubled CO2) and a solar sensitivity of

= 0.17°C (at 0.1% increase of the total solar irradiance). Then CO2 contributes 40% and the Sun 60% to global warming over the last century.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
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I had to look up "phlogiston"....you seem to think there was something wrong with the concept as a scientific theory...It explained a great deal. It was a solid scientific theory until further evidence indicated that it was inaccurate. That's how science works. It's the strength of science that hypotheses and theories can be altered or overturned as new information becomes available.

You are NOT bringing new evidence to the table...you present concepts which lack scientific rigor in determining their validity. Science quacks do that sort of thing...charlatans. Magic potions, arcane "cures" for cancer in Mexico. Suggesting government conspiracy theories, like Roswell NM. A smart person will dismiss them all for what they are....BS. That's you and your political movement.

Sorry, but the solar/GCR hypothesis and research have been published in leading journals. Your second paragraph includes nothing ever cited in any post of mine. Please stick to the facts.

Your defense of phlogiston will one day be used to describe AGW.
 
The IPCC was already busted for its peer review process by an independent investigation. For using un-peer reviewed papers and distorting conclusions in others.

I see that you failed to address anything meaningful though.

You would be dead before you saw a real global warming event.
There should be Investigations and there have been.

https://cei.org/news-letters-cei-planet/un-report-blasted-one-its-own-authors

Old but proves the point.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/feb/02/hacked-climate-emails-flaws-peer-review

Again proves the point. Not that you will acknowledge that here is a ton of corruption in climate science to the point it is no longer science but politics. Zealots rarely do acknowledge this fact.

The only people accusing mainstream science of corruption are politically active scientists and ideologues. Richard Lindzen, Patrick Michaels cases in point as mentioned in your "news" articles....why not present material from actual scientific organizations? And again, if the fraud is real, where are the prosecutions?

If I were a research scientist, I wouldn't give the sceptics any of my time or share anything with them either. They are known to use it to advance their political agenda.
All they do is cast aspersions in order to create doubt...and accuse the scientists of fraud.....never proving anything out side their own echo chamber.
 
Sorry, but the solar/GCR hypothesis and research have been published in leading journals. Your second paragraph includes nothing ever cited in any post of mine. Please stick to the facts.

Your defense of phlogiston will one day be used to describe AGW.

Not as a viable alternative explanation for AGW they haven't. You cite people and concepts which are exactly what my second paragraph is about. Your citations lack credibility since they do not originate from a well vetted scientific source.

I have no idea whether or not your last sentence will come to pass or not...I rather doubt it given the mountains of evidence, but you never know....I don't have a crystal ball like you.
 
Not as a viable alternative explanation for AGW they haven't. You cite people and concepts which are exactly what my second paragraph is about. Your citations lack credibility since they do not originate from a well vetted scientific source.

I have no idea whether or not your last sentence will come to pass or not...I rather doubt it given the mountains of evidence, but you never know....I don't have a crystal ball like you.

Hmmm. Svensmark has been published by the UK's Royal Astronomical Society and Oxford University among others. Shaviv has been published by the Institute for Advanced Study among others.
 
The only people accusing mainstream science of corruption are politically active scientists and ideologues. Richard Lindzen, Patrick Michaels cases in point as mentioned in your "news" articles....why not present material from actual scientific organizations? And again, if the fraud is real, where are the prosecutions?

they are some of the top climatologists in their field. They even did work for the IPCC what are you talking about? They are scientists and they have published papers. You are doing as i expected though congrats.

If I were a research scientist, I wouldn't give the sceptics any of my time or share anything with them either. They are known to use it to advance their political agenda.
All they do is cast aspersions in order to create doubt...and accuse the scientists of fraud.....never proving anything out side their own echo chamber.

Thanks for proving everything that is wrong with climate science. Your mentality is the exact reason why we should take a closer look.
again you are doing the exact thing i predicted you would do even when confronted with facts that the IPCC is being dishonest in what it publishes.
this coming from people that WORKED WITH the IPCC.
 
I had to look up "phlogiston"....you seem to think there was something wrong with the concept as a scientific theory...It explained a great deal. It was a solid scientific theory until further evidence indicated that it was inaccurate. That's how science works. It's the strength of science that hypotheses and theories can be altered or overturned as new information becomes available.

Global warming is a viable theory with the right conditions. In fact it was based on what caused the atmospheric conditions on Venus. then again venus has a co2 composition of about 97%. While on earth it is less than 1%.
at 3%-5% we are all dead but then again that would required about 100x more co2 in our atmosphere than we have now. you would never see a global warming event.

You are NOT bringing new evidence to the table...you present concepts which lack scientific rigor in determining their validity. Science quacks do that sort of thing...charlatans. Magic potions, arcane "cures" for cancer in Mexico. Suggesting government conspiracy theories, like Roswell NM. A smart person will dismiss them all for what they are....BS. That's you and your political movement.

yes that is exactly what you are doing but your zealotry has blinded you to anything remotely scientific.
 
Do you have any source material which does not come from a biased, non-peer-reviewed blog web site? Give us something from a University research department, NASA or some other credible scientific source....Otherwise I will not read it...

...why not present material from actual scientific organizations? ...

If I were a research scientist, I wouldn't give the sceptics any of my time or share anything with them either. They are known to use it to advance their political agenda.
All they do is cast aspersions in order to create doubt...and accuse the scientists of fraud.....never proving anything out side their own echo chamber.

...Your citations lack credibility since they do not originate from a well vetted scientific source.

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...That's how science works. It's the strength of science that hypotheses and theories can be altered or overturned as new information becomes available.

...

Yeah, but you would have no way of knowing.
 
Global warming is a viable theory with the right conditions. In fact it was based on what caused the atmospheric conditions on Venus. then again venus has a co2 composition of about 97%. While on earth it is less than 1%.
at 3%-5% we are all dead but then again that would required about 100x more co2 in our atmosphere than we have now. you would never see a global warming event.



yes that is exactly what you are doing but your zealotry has blinded you to anything remotely scientific.

Venus actually has more than 36,000 time the CO2 in an atmospheric column. Not only is CO2 at 96.5%, but the atmosphere is 92 bar.
 
Why is this still being discussed? I go back to what John McCain said, that the recommendations for dealing with human caused climate change are probably good for other reasons. If this is an international delusion of all the countries of the world and most of the scientists who have apparently written scores of peer-reviewed articles, skeptics should come up with powerful evidence to counter what is out there, get it reviewed and convince the world to... what? Burn more fossil fuels? Change mileage standards on cars? Imprison Al Gore?

What policy proposals would those who disagree with the prevailing science propose?
 
Why is this still being discussed? I go back to what John McCain said, that the recommendations for dealing with human caused climate change are probably good for other reasons. If this is an international delusion of all the countries of the world and most of the scientists who have apparently written scores of peer-reviewed articles, skeptics should come up with powerful evidence to counter what is out there, get it reviewed and convince the world to... what? Burn more fossil fuels? Change mileage standards on cars? Imprison Al Gore?

What policy proposals would those who disagree with the prevailing science propose?

It's "still being discussed" because the recommendations are feckless and wasteful. As Bjorn Lomborg has demonstrated, even if all recommendations of the Paris Accord were fully implemented, the difference in 2100 would be negligible.
 
This post is all over the map, including a seemingly unrelated Wikipedia link. Maybe you can enlighten me on that one. You provide no link for your statement that scientific organizations are at odds with one another. From all my background research, I believe they are remarkably close to one another, when it comes to AGW and the models and predictions. And to address your other topic, these scientific organizations unanimously agree that the warming that we're experiencing is unprecedented, and that CO2 is a "significant" factor in the warming. As for historical CO2, from thousands of years ago, I already addressed - the data is questionable from an accuracy standpoint, and from a viewpoint that we don't understand all the historical circumstances.

There is an interesting FAQ video on the NASA website, which I linked earlier. Did you look at it? It explores whether warming precedes CO2 concentration, or whether CO2 concentration increases precedes warming. The answer, according to this Climatologist is "BOTH". This may help to answer your question.

I was working on a computer that did not have the links that my home computer has.

Here is a comparison of the data tracks adjusted by the research teams to reflect the global climate they believe is correct over the recent past.

Please recall that if the billions of dollars are spent by the nations world wide in the prescribed ways to correct Global Warming, the impact of that expenditure will produce a predicted reduction in the total warming of about 1/10th of a degree.

However, the disagreement between the experts exceeds that wished for result right now. The various rates of change expose a constantly expanding range of disagreement.

If the experts cannot agree on what the actual data was or is, how much trust can we place in their predictions regarding what it will be?


Wood for Trees: Interactive Graphs

<snip>


trend


<snip>
 
Why is this still being discussed? I go back to what John McCain said, that the recommendations for dealing with human caused climate change are probably good for other reasons. If this is an international delusion of all the countries of the world and most of the scientists who have apparently written scores of peer-reviewed articles, skeptics should come up with powerful evidence to counter what is out there, get it reviewed and convince the world to... what? Burn more fossil fuels? Change mileage standards on cars? Imprison Al Gore?

What policy proposals would those who disagree with the prevailing science propose?

Try this from The Economist. And remember they support the Paris Accord.

The dirty truth about climate change

. . . . The Paris agreement assumes, in effect, that the world will find ways to suck CO[SUB]2[/SUB] out of the air. That is because, in any realistic scenario, emissions cannot be cut fast enough to keep the total stock of greenhouse gases sufficiently small to limit the rise in temperature successfully. But there is barely any public discussion of how to bring about the extra “negative emissions” needed to reduce the stock of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] (and even less about the more radical idea of lowering the temperature by blocking out sunlight). Unless that changes, the promise of limiting the harm of climate change is almost certain to be broken. . . .
 
Oh, but according to Shaviv the impact would only have been a cooling of about 0.1C degrees. Nonsense.

What science actually thinks is that a general cooling of about 0.5C - 1.0C occurs due to such major eruptions. Pinatubo produced -0.6C in 1991 - 1992.

Coincident Maunder Minimum like solar activity punctuated by incidences of such volcanism results in Little Ice Age conditions with a somewhat prolonged period of generally cool conditions (-0.5C) unevenly distributed across the globe.

As a part of the overall climate system, any volcano seems to pack a pretty good punch.

Pinatubo was a 6 in the VEI Scale.

1991 was a pretty hot year.


 
Try this from The Economist. And remember they support the Paris Accord.

The dirty truth about climate change

. . . . The Paris agreement assumes, in effect, that the world will find ways to suck CO[SUB]2[/SUB] out of the air. That is because, in any realistic scenario, emissions cannot be cut fast enough to keep the total stock of greenhouse gases sufficiently small to limit the rise in temperature successfully. But there is barely any public discussion of how to bring about the extra “negative emissions” needed to reduce the stock of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] (and even less about the more radical idea of lowering the temperature by blocking out sunlight). Unless that changes, the promise of limiting the harm of climate change is almost certain to be broken. . . .

So this is some sort of mass delusion that has affected the majority of scientists and all the governments of the world? Ok, so what should we do? Most of the proposals I have seen are useful policies for reasons other than controlling climate. What steps that we have taken should be reversed and how will that make things better?
 
So this is some sort of mass delusion that has affected the majority of scientists and all the governments of the world? Ok, so what should we do? Most of the proposals I have seen are useful policies for reasons other than controlling climate. What steps that we have taken should be reversed and how will that make things better?

Why are they useful? Efforts to control pollution don't require "climate change overhead" and are in fact retarded by association with AGW advocacy.
 
So this is some sort of mass delusion that has affected the majority of scientists and all the governments of the world? Ok, so what should we do? Most of the proposals I have seen are useful policies for reasons other than controlling climate. What steps that we have taken should be reversed and how will that make things better?

Btw, not a delusion of any sort. Just a choice of symbolism over substance.

[h=3]Paris climate promises will reduce temperatures by ... - Bjorn Lomborg[/h]www.lomborg.com/press-release-research-reveals-negligible-impact-of-paris-climate-...



A new peer-reviewed paper by Dr. Bjorn Lomborg published in the Global Policy journal measures the actual impact of all significant climate promises made ahead of the Paris climate summit. Governments have publicly outlined their post-2020 climate commitments in the build-up to the December's meeting.
 
Why is this still being discussed? I go back to what John McCain said, that the recommendations for dealing with human caused climate change are probably good for other reasons. If this is an international delusion of all the countries of the world and most of the scientists who have apparently written scores of peer-reviewed articles, skeptics should come up with powerful evidence to counter what is out there, get it reviewed and convince the world to... what? Burn more fossil fuels? Change mileage standards on cars? Imprison Al Gore?

What policy proposals would those who disagree with the prevailing science propose?

All the lesser developed countries in the world are getting money from all the already developed countries in the world so they're on board.
China said maybe by 2030 they'll try to hold CO2 emissions steady so that's the extent of their participation.
Russia said it depends on how much CO2 their forests can eat so that's the extent of their participation.
India said to take a hike so that's the extent of their participation.
But the USA President, besides being a sucker, loved any excuse for more power unto himself, committed to an almost 30% reduction.
Ah ... good plan.
 
Why is this still being discussed? I go back to what John McCain said, that the recommendations for dealing with human caused climate change are probably good for other reasons. If this is an international delusion of all the countries of the world and most of the scientists who have apparently written scores of peer-reviewed articles, skeptics should come up with powerful evidence to counter what is out there, get it reviewed and convince the world to... what? Burn more fossil fuels? Change mileage standards on cars? Imprison Al Gore?

What policy proposals would those who disagree with the prevailing science propose?

I admit that "imprison Al Gore" suggestion is intriguing.
Do you have a charge in mind?
I don't think it's illegal to have a head that grows much larger while the face stays the same size.
Perhaps something about acquiring inordinate wealth since he left office?
There again, his defense that there's a sucker to take advantage of born every minute is kinda solid.
 
So far no one has responded with any suggestions as to what the US should stop doing. That third world countries are on board is good, as they presumably need to develop, and our taking steps to help them do it more safely is probably a good thing. China is reducing emissions, if only to keep too many people from choking to death... Trump, or so I hear, is friendly with Russia, so he could get off his ass and convince them to change course, and what a surprise, our regular allies seem to be on board.

On the other hand, skeptics, if you insist, get some Koch money, do some studies that turn the foolish tide of emissions controls, submit articles for peer review, send stuff weekly to Science and Scientific American mags and picket them if they don’t consider your work, organize the grass roots to demonstrate at the climate conferences in favor of more coal. Read Saul Alinsky for tips on strategy. Otherwise we’re doomed. We on the left, having done civil rights and anti-war stuff for decades, could also provide technical assistance. For a price, naturally. After all, as Don Barzini said, “we are not communists,” despite what you may have heard.
 
How do you know that the journalist writing the book didn't just pull the sensationa material from scientists, t sell books...

There is no past correlation of CO2 to temperature. The correlation is temperature to CO2. Warmer ocean waters hold less CO2, so the atmosphere holds more. Colder ocean waters hold more CO2, so the atmosphere has less. That is why O2 levels change from around 160 ppm to around 290 ppm throughout the proxy history we have in ice core samples. Older samples yet, have the earth as having even higher CO2 levels, as the oceans held even less under the hottest times of the earth.

More misleading statements, which are at best half-truths. The video entitled, "Is there any merit to the studies that show that historical carbon dioxide levels lag behind temperature, and don't lead them?", is at this link.

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/
 
More misleading statements, which are at best half-truths. The video entitled, "Is there any merit to the studies that show that historical carbon dioxide levels lag behind temperature, and don't lead them?", is at this link.

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/

Why do you guys struggle to miss simple points?

When we came out of the ice age, the average CO2 atmospheric levels changed from about 170 ppm to about 280 ppm. This is a natural 65% increase, in response to around a 6 degree global increase. Now keep in mind, we are still warming naturally too. A near linear response if CO2 was driven another 1 degree would be around 390 ppm, but it is far from that simple. The average temperature doesn't drive it, rather the gradient of the temperature changes from pole to pole do. More on that later. The additional 110 ppm increase is the ECS after several hundred years, as it takes several hundred of years for most the ocean to circulate. In the last hundred years, I will venture to guess that the warming has caused around 20 ppm increase, and that without our influence, we would see around 300 ppm, rising to near 400 ppm around the year 3,000.

Before mankind was emitting CO2, the oceans would source CO2 in the equatorial areas and sink it in the polar regions. This has to do with how much a gas can be dissolved into a liquid, which changes with temperature. The average 280 ppm we have seen over the last 8,000 years or so is because the sourcing and sinking were in long term equilibrium. When the oceans were colder during the ice ages, the oceans simply held more gas in its equilibrium. That's why the average was around 170 ppm in the atmosphere. We still see sourcing and sinking the same way, the balance is just different.

CO2 does not warm the oceans very much at all, and the mass imbalance between the atmosphere and ocean has the ocean controlling atmospheric heat at the contact areas rather than the atmosphere controlling ocean heat. Now added CO2 in the atmosphere does speed up the ocean sourcing and slow down the ocean sinking however, the radiant energy from CO2 is warming the first few microns of water depth, and this "skin" thickness is where the CO2 exchange happens. The radiant exchange process is faster than convection temperature mixing, and most this energy is effectively reflected back away. However, it does increase the sourcing in the equatorial areas and decrease the sinking in the polar areas. The oceans source about 90 GtC annually, and we source about 10 GtC. The numbers varies a little from paper to paper, but not by much. The oceans turn around and sink about 92 GtC, which is showing the atmosphere levels are above equilibrium state for the SST (sea surface temperate.) The biosphere also sinks some of the excess CO2, but the net result is the atmospheric levels are increasing.

The sun is the driving force behind ocean warming, and how CO2 responds, and most of its response is linear to radiant changes, not logarithmic. It is simply a matter of physics, where one calorie (4.186 joules or watt-seconds) of energy warms one gram of pure water by one degree. We see the nonlinear responses at the surface, not to the depths that sunlight penetrates the oceans. It takes time for these changes from the solar flux to be seen at the surface, and with the ocean circulation, we have water emerging from the southern hemisphere that hasn't been to the surface in around 500 years, and in the norther hemisphere, water diving deep not be be seen for another approximate 500 years. There are so many variables to this.

As the waters start out cold in the south, then likely absorbs CO2 until they travel north far enough to be in balance. This really depends on what happened chemically in the deep oceans. Then at some point, as they get warmer and warmer, they start emitting CO2, and hold the least CO2 in the equatorial areas. Then as they travel farther north and start cooling again, they start absorbing CO2 again. This is something that is likely not linear, and what I stated about 1 degree equating to a change from 280 ppm to 390 ppm is likely in error. The average temperature isn't what matters, and isn't linear to the equilibrium process. It is the changes of exchange in the warmer vs. the cooler areas that matter. Here is a quick graph to illustrate:



I'm not a good technical writer at all, so I hope this is helpful just the same.
 
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