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Toyota's hydrogen fuel cell trucks put to work in Port of LA pilot

dirtpoorchris

dirtpoorchris

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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-apos-hydrogen-fuel-cell-134511822.html

[FONT=&quot]Toyota has hydrogen fuel cell transport trucks that generate no local emissions, and that have 670 horsepower and an 80,000 lb total weight capacity. The powertrain includes two of Toyota's Mirai fuel cells, and a 12kWh battery charged by the cells. Toyota is now running a concept version of the truck along [/FONT]pilot routes[FONT=&quot] that run around 200 miles per day, moving good between depots in the Port of LA and Long Beach.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The pilot is designed to help Toyota see what the impact of frequent cycling of its fuel cell system will do to the packs, as they'll be refueled often to run the short haul trips.[/FONT]
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Awwwwesome. Hope it works. Why not farm the oceanwater for easy fuel would just take a few crazy people to tune the electrolosis extractors extremely.
 
Hydrogen fuel cell technology is great, except that we do not have the infrastructure to handle it.
I see several steps between where we are and a real hydrogen economy.
Steam reformation is a process where hydrogen can be stripped off of normal liquid fuels.
This is still an emerging technology, but allowing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles without the need to change to a hydrogen
infrastructure could speed adoption by several decades.
 
longview said:
Hydrogen fuel cell technology is great, except that we do not have the infrastructure to handle it.
I see several steps between where we are and a real hydrogen economy.
...
Click to expand...

Different technology, but an example of what can be done.
Tesla appears to making the "build it and they will come" commercial model, which is very bold compared to most companies.

Tesla currently working on 3 new factories, will build a new one for Model Y, 10-20 gigafactories total

My boss owns one. They've built their own charge stations scattered around the city and state, in other company's parking lots.

I add the following mostly to piss you off:
Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies

Thanks Obama!
 
longview said:
Hydrogen fuel cell technology is great, except that we do not have the infrastructure to handle it.
I see several steps between where we are and a real hydrogen economy.
Steam reformation is a process where hydrogen can be stripped off of normal liquid fuels.
This is still an emerging technology, but allowing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles without the need to change to a hydrogen
infrastructure could speed adoption by several decades.
Click to expand...

I have been a huge fan of this technology for a long time.
i like it better than electric.

there are issues with this like anything else.

1. infrastructure.
2. refueling time (just as bad as electric) you can get to 80%-90% pretty fast it is that last 10-20% that takes forever to fill.
if i am driving someone i don't have time to waste 1 hour refueling. i want to gas and go.

3. it is still expensive to drive one.
 
CletusWilbury said:
Different technology, but an example of what can be done.
Tesla appears to making the "build it and they will come" commercial model, which is very bold compared to most companies.

Tesla currently working on 3 new factories, will build a new one for Model Y, 10-20 gigafactories total

My boss owns one. They've built their own charge stations scattered around the city and state, in other company's parking lots.

I add the following mostly to piss you off:
Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies

Thanks Obama!
Click to expand...
I wonder what the model 3 will cost, and the life of the battery pack?
I think the technology that will win, will be the one which requires the least changes in infrastructure and what people are used to.
 
ludin said:
I have been a huge fan of this technology for a long time.
i like it better than electric.

there are issues with this like anything else.

1. infrastructure.
2. refueling time (just as bad as electric) you can get to 80%-90% pretty fast it is that last 10-20% that takes forever to fill.
if i am driving someone i don't have time to waste 1 hour refueling. i want to gas and go.

3. it is still expensive to drive one.
Click to expand...
That is why I think carrying the fuel as conventional liquid hydrocarbon, with a reformer will be the likely winning combination.
Combine that with man made carbon neutral hydrocarbon fuels, and we can move forward without major changes in infrastructure.
In addition the man made fuel is a drop in replacement for fuels used in today's cars, trucks and jets.
 
CletusWilbury said:
Different technology, but an example of what can be done.
Tesla appears to making the "build it and they will come" commercial model, which is very bold compared to most companies.

Tesla currently working on 3 new factories, will build a new one for Model Y, 10-20 gigafactories total

My boss owns one. They've built their own charge stations scattered around the city and state, in other company's parking lots.

I add the following mostly to piss you off:
Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies

Thanks Obama!
Click to expand...

Musk just laid off 700.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-apos-hydrogen-fuel-cell-134511822.html



Awwwwesome. Hope it works. Why not farm the oceanwater for easy fuel would just take a few crazy people to tune the electrolosis extractors extremely.
Click to expand...

I think it's a good way to test the technology. You have to assume that they've tested the cell pack regeneration in a lab environment first, and that this is the actual field test. The article doesn't say. There are probably issues, related to more extreme temperatures, which are avoided, with a Southern California route. Baby steps first!
 
Media_Truth said:
I think it's a good way to test the technology. You have to assume that they've tested the cell pack regeneration in a lab environment first, and that this is the actual field test. The article doesn't say. There are probably issues, related to more extreme temperatures, which are avoided, with a Southern California route. Baby steps first!
Click to expand...

The key is gonna be perfect mechanical extraction with perfect exchanger technology and ZERO catalysts. Unless the catylist happens to be dirt cheap common substance. I mean we need big giant 40 feet tanks designed to draw every inch of liquid sorta like oil refineries. We can easily put hydrogen at every gas station. Easier than oil. Once we realize it.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
The key is gonna be perfect mechanical extraction with perfect exchanger technology and ZERO catalysts. Unless the catylist happens to be dirt cheap common substance. I mean we need big giant 40 feet tanks designed to draw every inch of liquid sorta like oil refineries. We can easily put hydrogen at every gas station. Easier than oil. Once we realize it.
Click to expand...
I think the effort and expense to change out the infrastructure will be more involved.
Stations know how to handle liquid hydrocarbon fuels, high pressure hydrogen is something different.
https://insideevs.com/california-ap...ng-stations-2-8-million-ev-charging-stations/
FirstElement Fuel, Inc. was awarded $2,902,000 to construct two 100 percent renewable refueling stations in Los Angeles
Click to expand...
It is good to see that the early stations only need a $1.45million subsidy each to set up a hydrogen pump.
I do think hydrogen will be the eventual winner, but think that will occur at stage 3 or so, in about 50 years.
 
longview said:
That is why I think carrying the fuel as conventional liquid hydrocarbon, with a reformer will be the likely winning combination.
Combine that with man made carbon neutral hydrocarbon fuels, and we can move forward without major changes in infrastructure.
In addition the man made fuel is a drop in replacement for fuels used in today's cars, trucks and jets.
Click to expand...

it will take years and years and years to switch fuel economies. hell it took almost 90 years to switch from leaded to unleaded gas.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-apos-hydrogen-fuel-cell-134511822.html



Awwwwesome. Hope it works. Why not farm the oceanwater for easy fuel would just take a few crazy people to tune the electrolosis extractors extremely.
Click to expand...

Hydrogen is the most logical fuel for transportation in the future. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, so much so that futurists imagine future deep space craft having scoops to collect it and use it as their rocket fuel.

The beauty of hydrogen fuel cells is that the exhaust is nothing more than pure water.

Problem here on Earth is that hydrogen is always firmly stuck something else and is rather difficult to separate in an energy efficient and effective manner.

Your post mentions electrolysis of water to extract the hydrogen. My suspicion is that it takes more energy in the electrolysis of water to free the hydrogen than the hydrogen will return in energy in the form of fuel (basic laws of thermodynamics, you can never get ahead)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficiency

trblmkr said:
But won't we just use up all the seawater?
Hydrogen is dangerous. Remember that blimp thingy?
What good is 200 miles a day?
OK, I tried. Some one else will have to come up with a down side to this.
Click to expand...

I think I might have above. No worries about 'using up all the seawater', its returned as water as exhaust from the fuel cell, so no water is lost, and is returned to the environment.

I can think of winter traffic jams in downtown NYC. All the hydrogen cars and trucks exhausting water vapor only to ice up the roads, causing accidents.
 
ludin said:
it will take years and years and years to switch fuel economies. hell it took almost 90 years to switch from leaded to unleaded gas.
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Quite true. All the current gas stations would have to convert at least one of their storage tanks and pumps to deal with the hydrogen fuel.
 
ludin said:
it will take years and years and years to switch fuel economies. hell it took almost 90 years to switch from leaded to unleaded gas.
Click to expand...
I think the switch to unleaded was accomplished in less than a 15 years. From 1970 to 1985.
http://web.mit.edu/ckolstad/www/Newell.pdf
I think the next steps will be simpler.
Soon, the price of oil will make it more profitable for refineries to make their own feedstock, (about $90 a barrel)
They can choose to make the fuel carbon neutral, and may even be a easier decision.
With CO2 off the table of consideration, the path to whatever energy carrying methodology finally wins will be on a level playing field.
 
eohrnberger said:
Quite true. All the current gas stations would have to convert at least one of their storage tanks and pumps to deal with the hydrogen fuel.
Click to expand...

It isn't even just that. you have to have special tanks and fueling systems.
next hydrogen fueling stations have the same issue that electric has.

ok wow they got the refueling time down to 3-5 minutes. it was upwards of a half hour.
 
ludin said:
It isn't even just that. you have to have special tanks and fueling systems.
next hydrogen fueling stations have the same issue that electric has.

ok wow they got the refueling time down to 3-5 minutes. it was upwards of a half hour.
Click to expand...

The hydrogen fueling model is the same as the current fueling model, a few minutes of a stop. To recharge batteries isn't.
 
eohrnberger said:
The hydrogen fueling model is the same as the current fueling model, a few minutes of a stop. To recharge batteries isn't.
Click to expand...

Only because the technology to do so has improved.
I know a few years ago it was about the same time as electric.

it was pretty fast up to the last 10-20% then it slowed down.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
The key is gonna be perfect mechanical extraction with perfect exchanger technology and ZERO catalysts. Unless the catylist happens to be dirt cheap common substance. I mean we need big giant 40 feet tanks designed to draw every inch of liquid sorta like oil refineries. We can easily put hydrogen at every gas station. Easier than oil. Once we realize it.
Click to expand...

There are still a number of safety obstacles. This article is upbeat about hydrogen, but it mentions electrical safety in addition to the following:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/sfm/pr...e Fuels/FuelCellHydrogenFuelVehicleSafety.pdf
a) Parking of the vehicle
Parking a hydrogen vehicle or other gas-fueled vehicle in an enclosed structure is a
serious safety concern as it can lead to a buildup of the gas. Hydrogen’s tendency to rise and
disperse rapidly makes this the only situation in which small leaks can create extremely
dangerous situations.
b) Emission
As noted above, liquid hydrogen tanks always emit small quantities of hydrogen if it is
not oxidized or burned off in a controlled manner. All hydrogen-containing fuel systems have a
great propensity for at least small leaks due to the pressure of the gaseous hydrogen and the
small size of the individual molecules. Because of the high dispersion rate of hydrogen, small
leaks would likely pose a problem only in small individual garages. Safety concerns in larger
private or public parking garages will be more of an issue if and when the number of hydrogenfueled
vehicles rises dramatically. Without major changes to parking structures or installation of
continuous ventilation even in private, individual garages, hydrogen detectors will be essential to
protecting all enclosed environments in which hydrogen will be present.
 
ludin said:
I have been a huge fan of this technology for a long time.
i like it better than electric.

there are issues with this like anything else.

1. infrastructure.
2. refueling time (just as bad as electric) you can get to 80%-90% pretty fast it is that last 10-20% that takes forever to fill.
if i am driving someone i don't have time to waste 1 hour refueling. i want to gas and go.

3. it is still expensive to drive one.
Click to expand...


the moron in chief could fix the infrastructure issue but he decided to pander to coal.
 
trblmkr said:
Ooh, Ooh, I thought of one. It's Toyota!
Click to expand...

Well, there's also Ballard Fuel Cells, up here in Canada. If I remember right, they've sold some stuff to the US military.
 
ludin said:
it will take years and years and years to switch fuel economies. hell it took almost 90 years to switch from leaded to unleaded gas.
Click to expand...

What? That happened in my lifetime. I was driving when unleaded gas first became available. And that stuff takes exponential less time with each change. It didn't take half of 90 years to go from steam to gas cars.
Fuel technologies are changing now. The economics will keep up or be left behind, up to them. If you own oil company stock, better flog it and buy into fuel cells or electric now, before it's too late.
 
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