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The West is on fire [W:86]

Isn't Columbia River Gorge just a part of the millions upon millions of acres of federal lands that have been part of the the federal government land grab out West over the last century? It would be interesting to learn out of all the fires occurring, how many started on federal lands and spread to homeowners whose properties butt up to them.

I recall a beetle infestation in Montana which involved forests of trees dying. Did the feds go in and clean up all the dead so as not to leave them for tinder? How about removing excessive vegetation around the trees in the forests that can easily turn into tinder during dry spells? Can't the Federal government afford bush hogs? They scarfed all the lands from states and now they can't take care of them?

No timber cos. went in and cleaned up all the dead, just as they did in a lot of areas. The wood went to chips for paper, MDF, OSB, etc. Good logging practices would keep these forests healthy, but we won't see that happen, since there are some very ignorant people in high places who think that trees are more important than forests. Expect these stands to end up over-grown and infested again in about 20-30 years.
 
No timber cos. went in and cleaned up all the dead, just as they did in a lot of areas. The wood went to chips for paper, MDF, OSB, etc. Good logging practices would keep these forests healthy, but we won't see that happen, since there are some very ignorant people in high places who think that trees are more important than forests. Expect these stands to end up over-grown and infested again in about 20-30 years.

So true.

With the right balance in regulations, we can maintain a healthy forests, wildlife in our forests, and profit in timber.

It would be nice to see home construction prices become affordable again with cheaper timber.
 
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It wasn't discovered then, it was already known. And the tree is a lodgepole pine.

We can build all the firebreaks we want, they're marginal at best and utterly useless when the wind picks up.

IMO what we need to do as a country to lessen the impact on people is quit subsidizing risky behavior. Build in a forest, you assume the risk. Build in a floodplain, you assume the risk. We're not going to fight the fires to save your structures and we're not going provide low cost flood insurance so you can rebuild in the same floodplain so act accordingly.

Yep. Pinus contorta (so named for the way the twin needles twist around each other). I first heard that back the '70's when my dad was brush-piling.
 
Our nephew is a smokejumper based in Boise. He's been deployed to Oregon for some time now. Interestingly, he and his team have had a lot of down time because the fires are too big. Smokejumpers and their aircraft are held back for quick deployment to new, small fires. He's been doing a lot of drills and equipment checks.

They've pretty much abandoned the Chetco Bar fire. It's in such rough and remote country that they've pretty much decided to let the fall rains take care of it. Not a lot help to the thousands of people in Medford, Ashland, etc. suffering from the intense smoke. We've had a lot of days here in Cent. Oregon where visibility was less than 1/2 mile from the fires in the Cascades.
 
According to scientists, warmer forests from climate change are causing the pine beetle to flourish. Couple that with a longer, hotter arid season in the Mountain West, and the result is more extreme wildfires. Notice that I didn't say more wildfires. Due to education, publicity, and awareness, the number of wildfires is not on the rise. However, the extremity of wildfires is getting worse and worse. Here is a link to the pine beetle and climate change:

Climate Change Sends Beetles Into Overdrive | Science | AAAS

Call it the beetle baby boom. Climate change could be throwing common tree killers called mountain pine beetles into a reproductive frenzy. A new study suggests that some beetles living in Colorado, which normally reproduce just once annually, now churn out an extra generation of new bugs each year. And that could further devastate the region's forests.

Climate change my ass. WPB can only fly about 15-20', after that they fall to the ground and are easy pickings for birds. Without smart logging practices, the density of the forests increases to the point that almost every tree is within that 15-20' range. With smart logging practices (thinning, slash piling, jack-pot burns, harvest and replanting), that spacing gets maintained, leading to healthier forests that yield more timber. More timber means lower building costs, means more affordable housing, means less logging in 3rd world nations where they use bulldozers instead of chainsaws and re-planting is rare.
 
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Colombia River Gorge, just one of 137 large wildfires currently raging across the West.



and it's burning up the Forest Service's budget as well:

usfs-budget.jpg





Fires and fire prevention must become more of a priority.

Do you agree? Why or why not?

read more here



My sympathies for the people in the region, having lost more than a few million hectares of forest this season here, my heart goes out to individuals. BC spent 400 % of its annual firefighting budget.

We have firefighters from British Columbia in Oregon, Washington and California in an un-official reciprosity that has gone on since the '30's.

But this time I am NOT filled with pride and awe and many Canadians are asking why we should even be there. We got very little help in our fires, your president is trying to screw us over NAFTA and there is a growing "**** Canada" attitude since his election.

Harsh to say this, but it's hard to send firefighters into harms way for a country that's screwing us on lumber tariffs.
 
Yes, it can be done responsibly.

The logging industry in the Northwest has been under attack by environmentalists as link as I can remember. It used to be a thriving business, now we import most out wood. Environmentalism has done so much damage by improper consideration for balance. We needed to move into sensible regulations that continued to provide wood, and mitigated any natural damage.

Logging roads used to be used for firefighting. Now they are overgrown and useless.

LOGGERS used to be used for fire-fighting. If you bought a timber sale, part of the contract was a clause that said if a fire breaks within a certain proximity to the sale, they can come and get your crew. Some folks loved this, since it paid well, others hated it due to the risk. But the difference between the "professional" fire-fighters of today (a mix of inexperienced young people with a handful of damned good pros) and the professional loggers back then is the difference between having a guy who uses a chainsaw 3 months a years vs. a guy who practically sleeps with his. I watched a "professional" fire-fighter try to drop a tree one time when I was younger and was honestly afraid for his life and was making damn sure that I was well past where that tree could have fallen, since he had ZERO control over it.
 
My sympathies for the people in the region, having lost more than a few million hectares of forest this season here, my heart goes out to individuals. BC spent 400 % of its annual firefighting budget.

We have firefighters from British Columbia in Oregon, Washington and California in an un-official reciprosity that has gone on since the '30's.

But this time I am NOT filled with pride and awe and many Canadians are asking why we should even be there. We got very little help in our fires, your president is trying to screw us over NAFTA and there is a growing "**** Canada" attitude since his election.

Harsh to say this, but it's hard to send firefighters into harms way for a country that's screwing us on lumber tariffs.

We've had fire fighters from Georgia, Kentucky and Puerto Rico (just to name a few).
 
My sympathies for the people in the region, having lost more than a few million hectares of forest this season here, my heart goes out to individuals. BC spent 400 % of its annual firefighting budget.

We have firefighters from British Columbia in Oregon, Washington and California in an un-official reciprosity that has gone on since the '30's.

But this time I am NOT filled with pride and awe and many Canadians are asking why we should even be there. We got very little help in our fires, your president is trying to screw us over NAFTA and there is a growing "**** Canada" attitude since his election.

Harsh to say this, but it's hard to send firefighters into harms way for a country that's screwing us on lumber tariffs.

Remember, a majority of Americans didn't vote for Trump, and he will only be in office until 2020, if that long.
 
Climate change my ass. WPB can only fly about 15-20', after that they fall to the ground and are easy pickings for birds. Without smart logging practices, the density of the forests increases to the point that almost every tree is within that 15-20' range. With smart logging practices (thinning, slash piling, jack-pot burns, harvest and replanting), that spacing gets maintained, leading to healthier forests that yield more timber. More timber means lower building costs, means more affordable housing, means less logging in 3rd world nations where they use bulldozers instead of chainsaws and re-planting is rare.

Besides, the Pine Beetle problem was later shown not to be AGW related. Of course, the lying pundits aren't going to retract their words.
 
Remember, a majority of Americans didn't vote for Trump, and he will only be in office until 2020, if that long.



Yes, but our loggers are losing their jobs today.

The Canadian industry lost 12,000 jobs under Bush while the only benefit to the US was the shareholders of the multinationals that own American mills could have a few points more profit and the cost of building new homes soared, until '08 that is. Even then, we opened our doors to Americans flying, caught under the nationwide shut down in 911. No president has ever officially thanked Canadians for that.

Friendship only goes so far. I am not the only one who has grown weary, fed up, and angry with the likes of Obama, Clinton, Trump et al impacting on our lives with lies, and I am considered by colleagues to be rather pro-American. So maybe you need to learn what its like not to have Canadian waterbombers fighting your fires. Maybe all those retail jobs along the border have to go away. (The last time, pre NAFTA, over 100 people lost their livelihood in ONE MALL in Blaine, Washington.

It has been a great 150 years with few problems. But things are different now. We are not friends anymore according to diplomats; Trump needs a win and a big one and the only possibility he has is to tank the NAFTA talks.

So...we are at war. And this time most agree it will mean an end to the peace we have had, it will mean an end to the "longest undefended border in the world". You see, what Americans don't understand is that trade goes two ways, and what's at stake is the second largest trading partnership in the wold involving about $300 billion a year, or about $1 billion a day.

And the mood of the country is very much in tune with "**** Trump."
 
Yes, but our loggers are losing their jobs today.

The Canadian industry lost 12,000 jobs under Bush while the only benefit to the US was the shareholders of the multinationals that own American mills could have a few points more profit and the cost of building new homes soared, until '08 that is. Even then, we opened our doors to Americans flying, caught under the nationwide shut down in 911. No president has ever officially thanked Canadians for that.

Friendship only goes so far. I am not the only one who has grown weary, fed up, and angry with the likes of Obama, Clinton, Trump et al impacting on our lives with lies, and I am considered by colleagues to be rather pro-American. So maybe you need to learn what its like not to have Canadian waterbombers fighting your fires. Maybe all those retail jobs along the border have to go away. (The last time, pre NAFTA, over 100 people lost their livelihood in ONE MALL in Blaine, Washington.

It has been a great 150 years with few problems. But things are different now. We are not friends anymore according to diplomats; Trump needs a win and a big one and the only possibility he has is to tank the NAFTA talks.

So...we are at war. And this time most agree it will mean an end to the peace we have had, it will mean an end to the "longest undefended border in the world". You see, what Americans don't understand is that trade goes two ways, and what's at stake is the second largest trading partnership in the wold involving about $300 billion a year, or about $1 billion a day.

And the mood of the country is very much in tune with "**** Trump."

Canada has a positive trade balance with the US.

Canada is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $544.0 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $266.0 billion; goods imports totaled $278.1 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Canada was $12.1 billion in 2016.

[h=3]Canada | United States Trade Representative[/h]
https://ustr.gov › americas › canada









[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]



[/COLOR]
 
Canada has a positive trade balance with the US.

Canada is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $544.0 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $266.0 billion; goods imports totaled $278.1 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Canada was $12.1 billion in 2016.

[h=3]Canada | United States Trade Representative[/h]
https://ustr.gov › americas › canada









[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]



[/COLOR]



And what happens to that surplus when you remove oil and gas, which is sold to the US under market value?
 
Canada has a positive trade balance with the US.

Canada is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $544.0 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $266.0 billion; goods imports totaled $278.1 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Canada was $12.1 billion in 2016.

[h=3]Canada | United States Trade Representative[/h]
https://ustr.gov › americas › canada

I'm not concerned with a 12.1 billion trade difference. It isn't that much, and it's only a 4.5% imbalance. Its nothing compared to the 2016 census bureau numbers of $384.7 billion trade deficit with China and the $74.4 billion with Japan. We have a $116.5 billion deficit with Mexico, but since they are a land bordering nation, I'm OK with that.
 
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And what happens to that surplus when you remove oil and gas, which is sold to the US under market value?

I dunno... Is the oil and gas industry there so generous that they're willing to sell their product at a loss?
or is it just more costly to ship it to Europe?

I was in Canada recently. Saw gas being advertised at $1.35 a liter. That works out to over $5 a gallon, vs. about $3 here in taxifornia, and less in states with lower taxes.
 

[h=1]Inoculating forests against forest fires[/h]From the UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO Fighting fires before they spark University of New Mexico research could impact forest management around the world With warm, dry summers comes a deadly caveat for the western United States: wildfires. Scientists say the hot, dry climates found west of the Mississippi, along with decades of fire suppression efforts, are…
Continue reading →
 

[h=1]Inoculating forests against forest fires[/h]From the UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO Fighting fires before they spark University of New Mexico research could impact forest management around the world With warm, dry summers comes a deadly caveat for the western United States: wildfires. Scientists say the hot, dry climates found west of the Mississippi, along with decades of fire suppression efforts, are…
Continue reading →

More nothingness from the High Schooler, Watts. If actually analyzed, the article can be construed to state that AGW is making wildfires worse. However, we know that isn't the intent with the biased Watts. The fact is that temperatures are 1.2 deg F higher, on average, and this can extend the hot, dry wildfire season. There are actually less wildfires in recent years, a testament to the educational efforts of Regional Fire Information centers. I live in the Mountain West, and there are many warnings and suggestions. All this said, the firefires that do ignite are much worse than they used to be, burning more out of control, with more acreage involved. AGW contribution to wildfires may be the most significant problem posed by climate change - even more than flooding, etc.
 
More nothingness from the High Schooler, Watts. If actually analyzed, the article can be construed to state that AGW is making wildfires worse. However, we know that isn't the intent with the biased Watts. The fact is that temperatures are 1.2 deg F higher, on average, and this can extend the hot, dry wildfire season. There are actually less wildfires in recent years, a testament to the educational efforts of Regional Fire Information centers. I live in the Mountain West, and there are many warnings and suggestions. All this said, the firefires that do ignite are much worse than they used to be, burning more out of control, with more acreage involved. AGW contribution to wildfires may be the most significant problem posed by climate change - even more than flooding, etc.

###​
The paper:​
Prioritizing forest fuels treatments based on the probability of high-severity fire restores adaptive capacity in Sierran forests
Abstract
In frequent fire forests of the western United States, a legacy of fire suppression coupled with increases in fire weather severity have altered fire regimes and vegetation dynamics. When coupled with projected climate change, these conditions have the potential to lead to vegetation type change and altered carbon (C) dynamics. In the Sierra Nevada, fuels reduction approaches that include mechanical thinning followed by regular prescribed fire are one approach to restore the ability of the ecosystem to tolerate episodic fire and still sequester C. Yet, the spatial extent of the area requiring treatment makes widespread treatment implementation unlikely. We sought to determine if a priori knowledge of where uncharacteristic wildfire is most probable could be used to optimize the placement of fuels treatments in a Sierra Nevada watershed. We developed two treatment placement strategies: the naive strategy, based on treating all operationally available area and the optimized strategy, which only treated areas where crown-killing fires were most probable. We ran forecast simulations using projected climate data through 2,100 to determine how the treatments differed in terms of C sequestration, fire severity, and C emissions relative to a no-management scenario. We found that in both the short (20 years) and long (100 years) term, both management scenarios increased C stability, reduced burn severity, and consequently emitted less C as a result of wildfires than no-management. Across all metrics, both scenarios performed the same, but the optimized treatment required significantly less C removal (naive=0.42 Tg C, optimized=0.25 Tg C) to achieve the same treatment efficacy. Given the extent of western forests in need of fire restoration, efficiently allocating treatments is a critical task if we are going to restore adaptive capacity in frequent-fire forests.
 
More nothingness from the High Schooler, Watts. If actually analyzed, the article can be construed to state that AGW is making wildfires worse. However, we know that isn't the intent with the biased Watts. The fact is that temperatures are 1.2 deg F higher, on average, and this can extend the hot, dry wildfire season. There are actually less wildfires in recent years, a testament to the educational efforts of Regional Fire Information centers. I live in the Mountain West, and there are many warnings and suggestions. All this said, the firefires that do ignite are much worse than they used to be, burning more out of control, with more acreage involved. AGW contribution to wildfires may be the most significant problem posed by climate change - even more than flooding, etc.

Our nephew is an Idaho smoke jumper. He'd say you don't know what you're talking about.
 
Our nephew is an Idaho smoke jumper. He'd say you don't know what you're talking about.

and he'd be right.

Decades of fire suppression have resulted in overgrown forests that are prone to big, hot fires. The obvious solution is just what the article you posted is all about: clear the brush through mechanical thinning and prescribed burns.

Were governments to be rational, the fire fighters would have year around jobs, fighting fires in the summer and preventing them in the winter. Eventually, there would be less and less need for pouring money and other resources into fighting huge, destructive fires.

But, alas, rationalism and governments seem incompatible.


and it's not just the western US. Check out this guy in Portugal, trying to fight a wild fire with a garden hose (a bit like fighting bears with a BB gun):

171018-iberian-wildfires-mc_9abdc1b5d84d52112ade78ab81fee979.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg
 
and he'd be right.

Decades of fire suppression have resulted in overgrown forests that are prone to big, hot fires. The obvious solution is just what the article you posted is all about: clear the brush through mechanical thinning and prescribed burns.

Were governments to be rational, the fire fighters would have year around jobs, fighting fires in the summer and preventing them in the winter. Eventually, there would be less and less need for pouring money and other resources into fighting huge, destructive fires.

But, alas, rationalism and governments seem incompatible.


and it's not just the western US. Check out this guy in Portugal, trying to fight a wild fire with a garden hose (a bit like fighting bears with a BB gun):

171018-iberian-wildfires-mc_9abdc1b5d84d52112ade78ab81fee979.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg

Hey...

Can't be cutting any firebreaks like we use to...

The liberals and econutz won't allow such damage to the forests.
 
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