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El Niño is gone, but it's still the hottest July ever recorded

That's pretty much a straw man argument and not the issue.

From the IPCC's AR4 Report Chapter 8.6.2.3

In the idealised situation that the climate response to a doubling of atmospheric
CO2 consisted of a uniform temperature change only, with no feedbacks operating
(but allowing for the enhanced radiative cooling resulting from the temperature
increase), the global warming from GCMs would be around 1.2°C
(Hansen et al., 1984; Bony et al., 2006)​

The issue is the feed backs and do they add up to a catastrophic disaster?

Define "Catastrophic Disaster" please. How many people would need to die. On Jan 12, 2010, 314,000 were killed in the Haiti earthquake. 19,000 were killed in the Japan earthquake/tsunami. Many other similar disasters.
https://weather.com/news/news/deadliest-natural-disasters-20131112#/2

While I am in no way saying these are related to Global Warming, perhaps you can tell me if these qualify as "Catastrophic Disasters".

No one can say whether or not AGW was a factor in these disasters. However, most climate scientists believe that AGW will increase the probability of natural disasters. A 2-3 deg C rise in temperature will undoubtedly cause issues. We are already at a 1 deg C rise, since 1950.
When you see staggering death tolls from natural disasters in the hundreds of thousands, it demonstrates what we will be facing, if probabilities increase.
 
However, most climate scientists believe that AGW will increase the probability of natural disasters.
Not true.

Please post link the relevant studies.

A 2-3 deg C rise in temperature will undoubtedly cause issues.
How do yo know? Are you really that arrogant?

We are already at a 1 deg C rise, since 1950.
Not true. 1 F maybe, but not 1 C.

When you see staggering death tolls from natural disasters in the hundreds of thousands, it demonstrates what we will be facing, if probabilities increase.
Yes, as population density increases, the death tolls of a given size disaster will increase too.
 
Define "Catastrophic Disaster" please. How many people would need to die.
Your definition

On Jan 12, 2010, 314,000 were killed in the Haiti earthquake.
19,000 were killed in the Japan earthquake/tsunami.
Many other similar disasters.
https://weather.com/news/news/deadliest-natural-disasters-20131112#/2

While I am in no way saying these are related to Global Warming, perhaps
you can tell me if these qualify as "Catastrophic Disasters".​
will do.

No one can say whether or not AGW was a factor in these disasters.

Really? You can't rule out AGW from earthquakes?
I really shouldn't bother with an attempt to respond.

However, most climate scientists believe that AGW will increase the probability of natural disasters.

Which side of your mouth are you talking out of? the one that says,
"While I am in no way saying these are related to Global Warming"
or the other side that says, "However, most climate scientists believe
that AGW will increase the probability of natural disasters."

A 2-3 deg C rise in temperature will undoubtedly cause issues.
We are already at a 1 deg C rise, since 1950.
Yes, the average temperature is up around a degree since the 1800s.
Most of that is due to an increase in the minimums. And that's what
the IPCC said would happen:

Temperature Extremes
It is very likely that heat waves will be more intense, more frequent and longer lasting in a future warmer climate. Cold episodes are projected to decrease significantly in a future warmer climate. Almost everywhere, daily minimum temperatures are projected to increase faster than daily maximum temperatures, leading to a decrease in diurnal temperature range. Decreases in frost days are projected to occur almost everywhere in the middle and high latitudes, with a comparable increase in growing season length.

Mean Precipitation
For a future warmer climate, the current generation of models indicates that precipitation generally increases in the areas of regional tropical precipitation maxima (such as the monsoon regimes) and over the tropical Pacific in particular, with general decreases in the subtropics, and increases at high latitudes as a consequence of a general intensification of the global hydrological cycle. Globally averaged mean water vapour, evaporation and precipitation are projected to increase.

Climate Change 2007: Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis

The warming will occur at night, in the winter and higher latitudes.
Day time, summer time and the tropics - not so much.

When you see staggering death tolls from natural disasters in the hundreds of thousands,
it demonstrates what we will be facing, if probabilities increase.
That's right, you guys are claiming "Climate Change"/"Global Warming" will be a catastrophic disaster.

I don't see that in the IPCC link above.

Warmer nights, warmer winters, warmer Arctic, more precipitation, fewer violent storms,
increased biological production, longer growing seasons, more arable land - You know what?
That's a pretty long list of positive effects of a warmer world. What's going to cause these
"staggering death tolls ... in the hundreds of thousands" that you are talking about?

The biggest scare you guys have is sea level. And you guys claim if we stop burning fossil
fuels sea level will stop going up. You guys are nuts.
 
Your definition

On Jan 12, 2010, 314,000 were killed in the Haiti earthquake.
19,000 were killed in the Japan earthquake/tsunami.
Many other similar disasters.
https://weather.com/news/news/deadliest-natural-disasters-20131112#/2

While I am in no way saying these are related to Global Warming, perhaps
you can tell me if these qualify as "Catastrophic Disasters".​
will do.

Really? You can't rule out AGW from earthquakes?
I really shouldn't bother with an attempt to respond.

The biggest scare you guys have is sea level. And you guys claim if we stop burning fossil
fuels sea level will stop going up. You guys are nuts.

Thanks for your links to reliable information. I detect a very angry tone. One thing, I didn't say that "Climate Change/Global Warming will lead to catastrophic disaster". I said that the probability of more extreme weather increases. The weather could get better. If you roll the dice, sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. If the probabilities increase against you, you will lose more than you win. But you could still win. Capeche? From your last link:

For a future warmer climate, the current generation of models indicates that precipitation generally increases in the areas of regional tropical precipitation maxima (such as the monsoon regimes) and over the tropical Pacific in particular, with general decreases in the subtropics, and increases at high latitudes as a consequence of a general intensification of the global hydrological cycle. Globally averaged mean water vapour, evaporation and precipitation are projected to increase.

And more probability of Earthquakes is certainly not out of the question.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/feb/26/why-climate-change-shake-earth

The signs are that this is already happening. In the detached US state of Alaska, where climate change has propelled temperatures upwards by more than 3C in the last half century, the glaciers are melting at a staggering rate, some losing up to 1km in thickness in the last 100 years. The reduction in weight on the crust beneath is allowing faults contained therein to slide more easily, promoting increased earthquake activity in recent decades. The permafrost that helps hold the state's mountain peaks together is also thawing rapidly, leading to a rise in the number of giant rock and ice avalanches. In fact, in mountainous areas around the world, landslide activity is on the up; a reaction both to a general ramping-up of global temperatures and to the increasingly frequent summer heatwaves.

Yes, and I agree that sea level rise is inevitable. "Nuts"? Not sure if it will affect the nut harvest :) It stands to reason, that the higher temperatures rise, the more sea level will rise. I hope we can agree on that. Why then, do you consider it unreasonable to say that the more man-made CO2 we put in the atmosphere, the more the temperatures will rise? And the more fossil fuels we burn, the more CO2 will be trapped in the atmosphere. It's direct cause and effect:

Increased Fossil Fuel Burning ---> Increased CO2 in the Atmosphere ---> Increased Warming
 
The Guardian.

LOL...

LOL...

LOL...
 
...Yes, and I agree that sea level rise is inevitable.
Yes, it's been going up for a long time

It stands to reason, that the higher temperatures rise, the more sea level will rise.
I hope we can agree on that.
You guys seem to believe that the oceans will warm all the way to the bottom, but yes,
when water warms up it increases in volume to the tune of about 0.000214 per degree.

The IPCC's AR5 report tells us in FAQ 3.1|
Is the Ocean Warming?
"In the upper 75 m of the ocean, the global average warming trend
has been 0.11 [0.09 to 0.13]°C per decade over this time [1971-2010].
That trend generally lessens from the surface to mid-depth, reducing
to about 0.04°C per decade by 200 m, and to less than 0.02°C per decade
by 500 m."

Run the numbers on that and you get about two inches per century.

Why then, do you consider it unreasonable to say that the more man-made
CO2 we put in the atmosphere, the more the temperatures will rise?
Did I say that? It's true that the more you add the less the effect. It's logarithmic

And the more fossil fuels we burn, the more CO2 will be trapped in the atmosphere.
Yes, Sort of, the more CO2 the more places green plants can grow and the more CO2
they will take out. I would think the models factor that in, but then you never know.

It's direct cause and effect: Increased Fossil Fuel Burning ---> Increased CO2 in the Atmosphere ---> Increased Warming

I don't disagree that there's warming. You guys need to make the case that it's a
catastrophic disaster requiring an extraordinary sacrifice - the precautionary principle
and the rest of the stuff from your side. You've been at it for over thirty years, and
it's just not happening. Winters are warmer, longer growing seasons more rain ....
See the list in my previous post.

You guys seem to think that if you can prove CO2 causes warming that wins the argument.
And then you refer to that fact as a problem. You need to define the "Problem". You need
to demonstrate that backing off on CO2 emissions will solve the "Problem" You need to say
how you're going to enforce world-wide compliance to reducing CO2 emissions.

Politicians on your side of things jump to the regulations and enforcement without ever
demonstrating that there's a problem.

I'm off to see the Great American Eclipse & Traffic Jam. Back late Monday night
 
The Guardian.

LOL...

LOL...

LOL...

The Guardian undoubtedly has scientific sources behind it's claims, but I'm not going to waste my time looking them up for you. After all, you are the self-proclaimed expert, who knows more than NASA, the IPCC, etc. And you're so incredible, that it's all in your head, and you never cite a source.
 
This seems to be the gist of your argument:

I don't disagree that there's warming. You guys need to make the case that it's a
catastrophic disaster requiring an extraordinary sacrifice - the precautionary principle
and the rest of the stuff from your side. You've been at it for over thirty years, and
it's just not happening. Winters are warmer, longer growing seasons more rain ....
See the list in my previous post.


What is this extraordinary sacrifice? I have these energy sources in my backyard. I'm connected to the grid, so I can get power any time, with the flip of a switch. I run a surplus every month, and get a check at the end of the year. No sacrifice, other than I make money, instead of spending money.

As far as these supposed benefits from global warming, there may be in some areas. Since nobody can prove that any of the disasters that I mentioned earlier are caused by AGW (only probabilities), one can choose to hide their head in the sand, and ignore science. In summary, nothing that happens will convince you, because catastrophic disasters are written off, one after another, and you can cite benefits elsewhere. SolarWind_CloseUp.JPG
 
This seems like a good time to ask you something you've never been able to answer.
If CO2 is the overriding climate driver and CO2 has been increasing unabated, how could anything overwhelm it enough to have resulted in the warming pause since 2000?

You are joking of course. Most all of the warmest years in human history have happened since 2000. You must know that.

Top10YearsGlobally_2015_UPDATEDSEPT232015_web1_660_371_s_c1_c_c.jpg
 
This seems to be the gist of your argument:

I don't disagree that there's warming. You guys need to make the case that it's a
catastrophic disaster requiring an extraordinary sacrifice - the precautionary principle
and the rest of the stuff from your side. You've been at it for over thirty years, and
it's just not happening. Winters are warmer, longer growing seasons more rain ....
See the list in my previous post.


What is this extraordinary sacrifice? I have these energy sources in my backyard. I'm connected to the grid, so I can get power any time, with the flip of a switch. I run a surplus every month, and get a check at the end of the year. No sacrifice, other than I make money, instead of spending money.

As far as these supposed benefits from global warming, there may be in some areas. Since nobody can prove that any of the disasters that I mentioned earlier are caused by AGW (only probabilities), one can choose to hide their head in the sand, and ignore science. In summary, nothing that happens will convince you, because catastrophic disasters are written off, one after another, and you can cite benefits elsewhere. View attachment 67221584

So you use the electric company's wires to sell your product to the electric company's customers, and all you need is a backyard windmill to do it. Wow! Government regulations are a wonderful thing.

Your little windmill aside, the extraordinary sacrifice will involve attempting to run the world economy on wind and solar power. Smelting metal, producing glass, ceramics, cement, and other processes aren't going to happen with solar and wind. You left-wingers have no concept of reality. Maybe that's a straw man and maybe not.

What about transportation? Are trucks, trains, ships and aircraft for Gods sake going run on batteries?

What about heating and air conditioning?

How much of the economy outside residential do you think can run on renewables?
 
This seems to be the gist of your argument:

I don't disagree that there's warming. You guys need to make the case that it's a
catastrophic disaster requiring an extraordinary sacrifice - the precautionary principle
and the rest of the stuff from your side. You've been at it for over thirty years, and
it's just not happening. Winters are warmer, longer growing seasons more rain ....
See the list in my previous post.


What is this extraordinary sacrifice? I have these energy sources in my backyard. I'm connected to the grid, so I can get power any time, with the flip of a switch. I run a surplus every month, and get a check at the end of the year. No sacrifice, other than I make money, instead of spending money.

As far as these supposed benefits from global warming, there may be in some areas. Since nobody can prove that any of the disasters that I mentioned earlier are caused by AGW (only probabilities), one can choose to hide their head in the sand, and ignore science. In summary, nothing that happens will convince you, because catastrophic disasters are written off, one after another, and you can cite benefits elsewhere. View attachment 67221584

I'm back from dinner. I mulled over your participation in the electrical utility business:

What an outrageous sweet deal your back yard windmill is. You don't have to pay a stinking dime to deliver your product, you in effect, steal your competitor's customer list, your product is inferior (not 27-7-365), I'm guessing your windmill isn't insured, when lightning knocks out the power your purloined customers don't call you, they call your competitor. What kind regulatory regulations did you have to meet to perform as a state regulated utility besides none?
 
So you use the electric company's wires to sell your product to the electric company's customers, and all you need is a backyard windmill to do it. Wow! Government regulations are a wonderful thing.

Your little windmill aside, the extraordinary sacrifice will involve attempting to run the world economy on wind and solar power. Smelting metal, producing glass, ceramics, cement, and other processes aren't going to happen with solar and wind. You left-wingers have no concept of reality. Maybe that's a straw man and maybe not.

What about transportation? Are trucks, trains, ships and aircraft for Gods sake going run on batteries?

What about heating and air conditioning?

How much of the economy outside residential do you think can run on renewables?

It's called transition. And it will take a very long time. As far as my personal solar and wind, your anger and hate seem unwarranted.
 
It's called transition. And it will take a very long time. As far as my personal solar and wind, your anger and hate seem unwarranted.

Shoe's on the other foot, it's the left-wingers that hate capitalism and its corporations. Figuring out a way to steal from them or cripple them, like the Gieco ads say, if you're a leftist, it's what you do.
 
I'm off to see the Great American Eclipse & Traffic Jam. Back late Monday night

I'm not bothering with the hassle with traffic. I saw the one that went across norther Oregon back in '79. That one was right over where I lived. This one, I have to drive several miles south.

I'll bet Lincoln City of the coastline is packed!
 
The Guardian undoubtedly has scientific sources behind it's claims, but I'm not going to waste my time looking them up for you. After all, you are the self-proclaimed expert, who knows more than NASA, the IPCC, etc. And you're so incredible, that it's all in your head, and you never cite a source.

The Guardian is very often wrong.
 
Shoe's on the other foot, it's the left-wingers that hate capitalism and its corporations. Figuring out a way to steal from them or cripple them, like the Gieco ads say, if you're a leftist, it's what you do.

I would definitely fall into your category. Except not so much corporations, but the 1%ers. More accurately, probably the 0.1%ers. I believe that most of them are in it for themselves, and don't really care about much else, other than retaining their wealth. In Matthew 19:24, Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I believe that they have set up a number of political organizations, in an attempt to slant public opinion and legislation in their favor. You are correct. In general, I don't trust them.
 
Here ya go

Another way to illustrate it

climate-forcing-download1-2016.png
I was looking at this graph and it implies data that is not in evidence.
The graph says that CO2 caused radiative forcing of roughly 1.6 Wm-2 between 1979 and 2015.
For an increase is CO2 levels between 337 and 401 ppm.
The problem with that is it would mean the radiative forcing for 2XCO2 would have to be,
1.6/ln (401/337)=9.20, 9.20* ln(2)=6.37 Wm-2, and no one is saying the 2XCO2 radiative forcing number is anywhere near that high.
The 2XCO2 number has been dropping as it is an estimate, and is now about 3.71 Wm-2.
 
I'm not bothering with the hassle with traffic. I saw the one that went across norther Oregon back in '79. That one was right over where I lived. This one, I have to drive several miles south.

I'll bet Lincoln City of the coastline is packed!

We saw the one that went right up the East Coast in 1970.

Weather will likely be not favorable. Last night the forecast was partly cloudy Not so now )-:
 
I am amused by those who righteously link to some large website or massive document as their source for whatever they are arguing.
But if you ask them to please reference the area on that website or quote the paragraphs of the document that support their argument,
they can't do it if their lives depended on it.

Pretty much fits the definition of a Bible Thumper.
 
We saw the one that went right up the East Coast in 1970.

Weather will likely be not favorable. Last night the forecast was partly cloudy Not so now )-:

Weather was great! Well OK, nearly 90° and really humid, but the astronomical event was unobscured
 
Weather was great! Well OK, nearly 90° and really humid, but the astronomical event was unobscured

You think it was an eclipse?

Have you surveyed every single astronomer to determine if the moon moving in front of the sun was the explanation?

Are you just going to believe the pundits?
 
Here ya go

4111813993_66d16e78de.jpg



Another way to illustrate it

climate-forcing-download1-2016.png

A show of hands please.

How many people realize just how ridiculous both those charts are when not using a zero baseline reference?

Forcing since 1750 is bad enough, but that AGGI is an absolute joke in that it does not portray reality, rather shows an exaggerated influence suggesting more warning than factual.

Besides missing a zero reference, it would e nice to have H2O represented too.
 
We saw the one that went right up the East Coast in 1970.

Weather will likely be not favorable. Last night the forecast was partly cloudy Not so now )-:

True. One of my coworkers went to the coast, and most people must have thought the same. He has a great view, but there weren't very many people.

Madras has fires around it. I didn't hear how many were affected by smoke. I wonder how many careless eclipse chaser caused how many fires...
 
Why do so few people understand that the organization try to scare with unworthy indexes like RE, GWP, and AGGI should be ignored?
 
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