• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Fastest Growing Energy Job Market is Renewables

Lord of Planar said:
Which means they are causing other types of power to throttle more, and maintain unused capacity.
Click to expand...

Not as much as you might think. Predictability. And turbines and boilers can run at partial capacity.
 
Media_Truth said:
Not as much as you might think. Predictability. And turbines and boilers can run at partial capacity.
Click to expand...

You miss the point.

More throttling of the other power sources makes it more expensive per unit sold also.
 
Lord of Planar said:
You miss the point.

More throttling of the other power sources makes it more expensive per unit sold also.
Click to expand...

I worked with boilers and turbines throughout my career. These aren't automobiles. You don't throttle them. It is best to run boilers and turbines fully loaded, and it is best not to start additional machines, if they are not needed. Added solar capacity, especially during peak hours, will prevent additional machines from starting. On the other hand, if there is no current solar or wind capacity, additional machines may have to start up. It's a trade-off, however the peak hours are the critical hours to Utilities, so the trade-off works in the favor of solar, but not as much with wind.

Capeche?
 
Media_Truth said:
I worked with boilers and turbines throughout my career. These aren't automobiles. You don't throttle them. It is best to run boilers and turbines fully loaded, and it is best not to start additional machines, if they are not needed. Added solar capacity, especially during peak hours, will prevent additional machines from starting. On the other hand, if there is no current solar or wind capacity, additional machines may have to start up. It's a trade-off, however the peak hours are the critical hours to Utilities, so the trade-off works in the favor of solar, but not as much with wind.

Capeche?
Click to expand...

I think the overall point is that you have to maintain those peaking and off hours machines
for when the alternate power is unavailable.
The capacity of those plants had best equal the grid's full load.
The plants need to be ready anytime the alternate supply decreases.
These types of plants are not cheap to maintain.
 
longview said:
I think the overall point is that you have to maintain those peaking and off hours machines
for when the alternate power is unavailable.
The capacity of those plants had best equal the grid's full load.
The plants need to be ready anytime the alternate supply decreases.
These types of plants are not cheap to maintain.
Click to expand...

The OP didn't talk about machine maintenance. He talked about "throttling". Utilities must size for peak load, regardless of renewables. Hydro is great for this. Pumped water storage is great for this. It's a relatively old technology. The Taum Sauk, MO facility was built in 1960.

https://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/dams/2_43_Rogers.pdf

The Taum Sauk Pumped Storage Powerplant was constructed between 1960-63 to store water for generation during peak daytime
power demands.

Many Utilities charge large Corporate industrial customers a higher rate, during peak hours. I worked for a Fortune 500 company, as a Controls Engineer. We did a large number of projects and changes to curtail usage during peak hours, as a cost-saving measure.

There are many strategies that Utilities utilize to meet peak load. A smart Utility is encouraging customers to install Photovoltaic systems, because they are peak load producers, when peak load is most needed - hot sunny days. So, the argument against renewables, in this regard, is a total falsehood.
 
Renae said:
Lol. You drink of the koolaide.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Coal is much less than that. The statement even claims it is the authors opinion.

I wonder what Lazar Rozenblat's credentials are? His site is effectively a personal blog.
 
Media_Truth said:
I worked with boilers and turbines throughout my career. These aren't automobiles. You don't throttle them. It is best to run boilers and turbines fully loaded, and it is best not to start additional machines, if they are not needed. Added solar capacity, especially during peak hours, will prevent additional machines from starting. On the other hand, if there is no current solar or wind capacity, additional machines may have to start up. It's a trade-off, however the peak hours are the critical hours to Utilities, so the trade-off works in the favor of solar, but not as much with wind.

Capeche?
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand completely.
You are making the energy cos more for lack of utilization.
 
Media_Truth said:
The OP didn't talk about machine maintenance. He talked about "throttling". Utilities must size for peak load, regardless of renewables. Hydro is great for this. Pumped water storage is great for this. It's a relatively old technology. The Taum Sauk, MO facility was built in 1960.

https://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/dams/2_43_Rogers.pdf

The Taum Sauk Pumped Storage Powerplant was constructed between 1960-63 to store water for generation during peak daytime
power demands.

Many Utilities charge large Corporate industrial customers a higher rate, during peak hours. I worked for a Fortune 500 company, as a Controls Engineer. We did a large number of projects and changes to curtail usage during peak hours, as a cost-saving measure.

There are many strategies that Utilities utilize to meet peak load. A smart Utility is encouraging customers to install Photovoltaic systems, because they are peak load producers, when peak load is most needed - hot sunny days. So, the argument against renewables, in this regard, is a total falsehood.
Click to expand...
Your link is about the failure of a pumped water facility, but is interesting none the less.
 
longview said:
Your link is about the failure of a pumped water facility, but is interesting none the less.
Click to expand...

Actually this pumped water facility was recently reopened and is back in operation. It was an expensive proposition, as is often the case, with cutting-edge technology. This was cutting-edge in the 1960s. As is the case with a lot of concrete structures, they don't last very long. Many structural engineers are starting to question the usage of concrete for certain services.

This link provides more information on pumped-water-storage:

|
Pumped storage hydroelectric projects have been providing energy storage capacity and transmission grid ancillary benefits in the United States (U.S.) and Europe since the 1920s. Today, the 40 pumped- storage projects operating in the U.S. (shown in Figure 2) provide more than 20 GW, or nearly 2 percent, of the capacity of the electrical supply system (Energy Information Admin, 2007). Table 1 below presents a table of PSH capacities world-wide by country. In 2009, the world’s pumped hydroelectric storage generating capacity was over 100 GW.
...
In the U.S., the existing 38 pumped hydroelectric facilities can store just over 2 percent of the country’s electrical generating capacity. That share is small compared with Europe’s (nearly 5%) and Japan’s (about 10%). But the industry plans to build reservoirs close to existing power plants. Enough projects are being considered to double capacity. (Scientific American 2012)
 
Media_Truth said:
Actually this pumped water facility was recently reopened and is back in operation. It was an expensive proposition, as is often the case, with cutting-edge technology. This was cutting-edge in the 1960s. As is the case with a lot of concrete structures, they don't last very long. Many structural engineers are starting to question the usage of concrete for certain services.

This link provides more information on pumped-water-storage:

|
Pumped storage hydroelectric projects have been providing energy storage capacity and transmission grid ancillary benefits in the United States (U.S.) and Europe since the 1920s. Today, the 40 pumped- storage projects operating in the U.S. (shown in Figure 2) provide more than 20 GW, or nearly 2 percent, of the capacity of the electrical supply system (Energy Information Admin, 2007). Table 1 below presents a table of PSH capacities world-wide by country. In 2009, the world’s pumped hydroelectric storage generating capacity was over 100 GW.
...
In the U.S., the existing 38 pumped hydroelectric facilities can store just over 2 percent of the country’s electrical generating capacity. That share is small compared with Europe’s (nearly 5%) and Japan’s (about 10%). But the industry plans to build reservoirs close to existing power plants. Enough projects are being considered to double capacity. (Scientific American 2012)
Click to expand...
What do you think of repurposing old coal sites where they removed a mountain top for coal? Use these used up sites for water storage?
 
Lord of Planar said:
What do you think of repurposing old coal sites where they removed a mountain top for coal? Use these used up sites for water storage?
Click to expand...

I'd certainly be open to the prospect. Of course, there would have to be a lot of analysis, to determine site suitability.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Its not a bad idea. It just has limitations.
Click to expand...
I was wondering what the minimum head height would be to be effective?
In many flat parts of the country land fills are built up into hills about 200 feet high,
the artificial elevation, could be useful.
 
longview said:
I was wondering what the minimum head height would be to be effective?
In many flat parts of the country land fills are built up into hills about 200 feet high,
the artificial elevation, could be useful.
Click to expand...

That would be unstable, and the area settles over time.
 
Lord of Planar said:
That would be unstable, and the area settles over time.
Click to expand...
That is what I was thinking, but for flat land, it might be the only option for pumped water storage.
I saw one in Germany that used a deep empty mine, but that to has limited geography.
I think we must solve energy storage, for the alternatives currently available to be efficient.
 
longview said:
That is what I was thinking, but for flat land, it might be the only option for pumped water storage.
I saw one in Germany that used a deep empty mine, but that to has limited geography.
I think we must solve energy storage, for the alternatives currently available to be efficient.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting scenario. I've always thought that pumped water storage would require mountains and/or hills. However, an underground application, pumping up to sea level, would theoretically work just as well.
 
Media_Truth said:
That's an interesting scenario. I've always thought that pumped water storage would require mountains and/or hills. However, an underground application, pumping up to sea level, would theoretically work just as well.
Click to expand...
But just like the lake, it requires a lot of volume.
 
longview said:
But just like the lake, it requires a lot of volume.
Click to expand...

There could also be logistical problems, during times of high rainfall. Typically lower elevations tend to act as floodplains.
 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...icans-are-moving-to-the-burbs-buying-big-suvs

Millennials are finally starting their own baby boom and heading for the suburbs in big sport utility vehicles, much like their parents did.
Americans aged about 18 to 34 have become the largest group of homebuyers, and almost half live in the suburbs, according to Zillow Groupdata. As they shop for bigger homes to accommodate growing families, they’re upsizing their vehicles to match. U.S. industry sales of large SUVs have jumped 11 percent in the first half of the year, Ford Motor Co.estimates, compared with increases of 9 percent for midsize and 4 percent for small SUVs.
“We do see that demographic group driving larger sport utility sales as they acquire homes, create families and gain some wealth,” said Michelle Krebs, an analyst at car-shopping website Autotrader. “They started with compact sport utilities and now, with families, they’re moving up.”. . . .
 
Jack Hays said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...icans-are-moving-to-the-burbs-buying-big-suvs

Millennials are finally starting their own baby boom and heading for the suburbs in big sport utility vehicles, much like their parents did.
Americans aged about 18 to 34 have become the largest group of homebuyers, and almost half live in the suburbs, according to Zillow Groupdata. As they shop for bigger homes to accommodate growing families, they’re upsizing their vehicles to match. U.S. industry sales of large SUVs have jumped 11 percent in the first half of the year, Ford Motor Co.estimates, compared with increases of 9 percent for midsize and 4 percent for small SUVs.
“We do see that demographic group driving larger sport utility sales as they acquire homes, create families and gain some wealth,” said Michelle Krebs, an analyst at car-shopping website Autotrader. “They started with compact sport utilities and now, with families, they’re moving up.”. . . .
Click to expand...

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

It was encouraging to read that some millennials actually have jobs, are getting married and starting families! Hope springs anew that that not all of that age group are spending time protesting one thing or another - they're actually acting like adults determined to succeed in life! I've got three in my family, all with college degrees - two in the IT field and one in medicine, and I'm very proud of them! :happy:
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

It was encouraging to read that some millennials actually have jobs, are getting married and starting families! Hope springs anew that that not all of that age group are spending time protesting one thing or another - they're actually acting like adults determined to succeed in life! I've got three in my family, all with college degrees - two in the IT field and one in medicine, and I'm very proud of them! :happy:
Click to expand...

Greetings, Polgara.:2wave:

Well done.:mrgreen:
 
Fracking
[h=1]Cabot Oil & Gas Goes on Offensive Against Fracking Nuisance Lawsuits[/h]Guest post by David Middleton AUG 22, 2017 David Blackmon , CONTRIBUTOR Cabot Oil And Gas Declines To Play Sue And Settle There is a great, overriding bias in corporate America that favors entering into settlement agreements in litigation rather than engage in the trial process. The oil and natural gas industry is no exception to…
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom