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Solar Has Some Serious Environmental Problems; But it Feels So Virtuous

Hari Seldon said:
What do you suggest when we run out of oil?
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Alternate energy, like wind and solar have duty cycle issues that will require a grid level energy dump .
when the percentage of the supply gets near 50%, there will be large seasonal swings in over supply.
With millions of solar rooftops out there generating power, the base load can only go down to zero.
when that happens, the surplus power will need a place to be dumped, least it damage the grids.
Oil refineries, can use all of the surplus, and store it is fuel products.
The efficiency is 70%, but the power had to go somewhere or be lost as heat.
 
katzgar said:
there are several new types of panels coming down the stream so need for backwards looking hysteria.
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I personally favor exploring & employing all types of energy since fossil fuels won't last forever, but climate alarmists should stay away from accusing others of hysteria.
 
[h=1]Eclipseocalypse – Electrics Brace for Solar Darkness[/h]When the sun goes dark, California will lose the equivalent of five nuclear power plants of power. Martin Rosenberg | Jun 29, 2017 The Energy Times California is bracing for a significant loss of electric power as its fast-growing fleet of solar electric panels plunge into darkness during a major solar eclipse on August…
Continue reading →
 
Jack Hays said:
[h=1]Eclipseocalypse – Electrics Brace for Solar Darkness[/h]When the sun goes dark, California will lose the equivalent of five nuclear power plants of power. Martin Rosenberg | Jun 29, 2017 The Energy Times California is bracing for a significant loss of electric power as its fast-growing fleet of solar electric panels plunge into darkness during a major solar eclipse on August…
Continue reading →
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I think this is but a small glimpse of the types of grid control problems in our future.
just because we have lots of solar, does not mean we do not need power plants standing at the ready if needed.
Energy storage is the answer, but it will not be a simple problem.
 
longview said:
Alternate energy, like wind and solar have duty cycle issues that will require a grid level energy dump .
when the percentage of the supply gets near 50%, there will be large seasonal swings in over supply.
With millions of solar rooftops out there generating power, the base load can only go down to zero.
when that happens, the surplus power will need a place to be dumped, least it damage the grids.
Oil refineries, can use all of the surplus, and store it is fuel products.
The efficiency is 70%, but the power had to go somewhere or be lost as heat.
Click to expand...

Hundreds of megwatts batteries farms for one thing.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/10/14879246/elon-musk-tesla-battery-farm-australia-blackouts

Elon Musk has promised to solve ongoing power problems in the state of South Australia by committing to build a 100MW battery storage farm, and promising that if he couldn’t provide the system within 100 days, he would give it to the state for free.
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BillRM said:
Hundreds of megwatts batteries farms for one thing.
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Batteries will need to see some real improvements in both density and price, I was thinking of using the energy
Storage method evolved by nature, hydrocarbons!


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energy-sources-and-its-conservation-82-638.jpg
 
longview said:
Alternate energy, like wind and solar have duty cycle issues that will require a grid level energy dump .
when the percentage of the supply gets near 50%, there will be large seasonal swings in over supply.
With millions of solar rooftops out there generating power, the base load can only go down to zero.
when that happens, the surplus power will need a place to be dumped, least it damage the grids.
Click to expand...


Having noticed a tendency for you to get facts like this wrong I decided to do some looking and see if power grids with PV really need or might need energy dumps. And what do ya know... I couldn't find anything.

Inverters that convert DC to AC for home use and feeding into the grid are designed to disconnect if power levels get too high or too low. And while these disconnections can cause other problems they don't require the dumping of electricity when there is an overabundance of solar power.

Here is an interesting article that talks about the current and future state of inverters:
Can Smarter Solar Inverters Save the Grid? - IEEE Spectrum

longview said:
Oil refineries, can use all of the surplus, and store it is fuel products.
The efficiency is 70%, but the power had to go somewhere or be lost as heat.
Click to expand...

From what I have just learned about our power grid I doubt highly that this is true. At least not until the grid gets some major upgrades. And we all know that it is going to take years, if not decades, before any refineries that can do something like this are up and running.
 
Jack Hays said:
[h=1]Eclipseocalypse – Electrics Brace for Solar Darkness[/h]When the sun goes dark, California will lose the equivalent of five nuclear power plants of power. Martin Rosenberg | Jun 29, 2017 The Energy Times California is bracing for a significant loss of electric power as its fast-growing fleet of solar electric panels plunge into darkness during a major solar eclipse on August…
Continue reading →
Click to expand...

"Eclipseocalypse"?!? Sounds pretty scary!

But when I actually skip The shortened WUWT cut and paste and actually read the original article it doesn't sound so bad.

Does this mean you and WUWT are alarmists?
 
Buzz said:
"Eclipseocalypse"?!? Sounds pretty scary!

But when I actually skip The shortened WUWT cut and paste and actually read the original article it doesn't sound so bad.

Does this mean you and WUWT are alarmists?
Click to expand...

Just another data point.
 
longview said:
Batteries will need to see some real improvements in both density and price, I was thinking of using the energy
Storage method evolved by nature, hydrocarbons!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

There is flywheel technology. Being used for load leveling now.

And there stored hydro. Where excess energy is used to pump water uphill.

A recent development has the potential to increase charge/discharge cycles by orders of magnitude. As much as a hundred thousand cycles. Whi h would mean you might move you pack to a new car when the old one runs out.
 
beefheart said:
He should have been able to figure it out..but..no.
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Maybe he did it purposely?

Words have meaning...

How you use them, and seeing how others use and mislead people with them is an interesting insight to have. Or to see the reactions from people who misunderstand.
 
Buzz said:
Having noticed a tendency for you to get facts like this wrong I decided to do some looking and see if power grids with PV really need or might need energy dumps. And what do ya know... I couldn't find anything.

Inverters that convert DC to AC for home use and feeding into the grid are designed to disconnect if power levels get too high or too low. And while these disconnections can cause other problems they don't require the dumping of electricity when there is an overabundance of solar power.

Here is an interesting article that talks about the current and future state of inverters:
Can Smarter Solar Inverters Save the Grid? - IEEE Spectrum



From what I have just learned about our power grid I doubt highly that this is true. At least not until the grid gets some major upgrades. And we all know that it is going to take years, if not decades, before any refineries that can do something like this are up and running.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the good IEEE article that points out some of the issues I am talking about.
The power they’re injecting into distribution lines is causing voltage- and frequency-control problems that threaten to destabilize the grid. While this is not yet a major problem, it could become one as distributed solar systems proliferate.
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I can assure you that dump loads are very real and used on off grid systems, when the supply exceeds the demand.
Introduction to Diversion Loads / Dump Loads
The difference between those and the grid, is size! at some point the entire grid could have a similar problem.
As to the refineries being able to get the necessary power, most refineries are already co generator facilities.
Cogeneration | ExxonMobil
The grid to carry the co generation power out of the refineries, would also support power flowing the other way.
When Audi/sunfire started researching power to fuel, they bought an old refinery,
the process is similar to olefin cracking.
https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/ne...-project-e-diesel-air-water-green-electricity
 
What if...? said:
There is flywheel technology. Being used for load leveling now.

And there stored hydro. Where excess energy is used to pump water uphill.

A recent development has the potential to increase charge/discharge cycles by orders of magnitude. As much as a hundred thousand cycles. Whi h would mean you might move you pack to a new car when the old one runs out.
Click to expand...
I am confident Human ingenuity will solve the problem, but is just may not be batteries,
unless some major improvements happen.
The reason I favor hydrocarbon storage, is the demand and the infrastructure, are already in place.
The refineries store the surplus and create liquid fuel. The liquid fuel is carbon neutral, and is sold through
existing channels. CO2 emission go down, and the process is sustainable.
We will likely find something better like fuel cell electrics, but they cane be developed at their own pace.
 
petroleum
[h=1]“The World Keeps Not Running Out of Oil”[/h]Guest post by David Middleton The World Keeps Not Running Out of Oil July 2017 By David Brown, Explorer Correspondent The world has anticipated the “rapid exhaustion” of crude oil supplies for at least 100 years. Will it go on being close to running out of crude for the next 100? “Peak Oil” — the…
 
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