• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Solar Costs Are Hitting Jaw-Dropping Lows in Every Region of the World

Ttp #150

Safe for birds? Good question.

Will mammals ever stop being road-kill?
The amount of time automobiles have been killing deer is too short in evolutionary terms to turn out a more favorable result.
But there's a glimmer of hope.

You know how lobster traps work?
It's a funnel made of netting.
The lobsters can find their way in, but they can't find their way out ...

UNTIL !!

a few years ago I read an article that documented a lobster that got into a lobster trap, and then escaped from it.
It might have been a fluke.

BUT !!

It may also have been a documented step in evolutionary development of lobsters.
Raptors aren't accustomed to keeping a wary eye for dangers while they're looking for a place to stop for lunch, because they're the top of their food chain.
But perhaps like the lobsters mentioned above, birds will learn to be wary, and survive wind-turbines. (& maybe deer avoiding Hyundais?)
 
d #152

Thanks totally. I deeply appreciate the insight.
" the show is over. " d #152
Click to expand...
For whom?

I ride a Yamaha XT-250 motorcycle, and had the misfortune to park it with the light on.
Hours later I got back to it, and the battery was dead enough to not do anything.
No light bulb filament would even glow.

But we used a rope to tow it up to about 30 MPH, and I eased the clutch out in 5th gear.
It fired right up.

More puzzling, motorcycle batteries are small, and this bike is a 2009.
The battery is OEM, and it's still going fine. I have been keeping a 3 stage charger on it over the Winter.
But I'd assumed I'd have had to replace it by now.

This motorcycle has no kick-start. It's electric, or walk.
==================

I've read that deeply discharging a flat plate batt. can warp a plate and short a cell.
Then instead of a 12v batt. you've got a 10v battery. Not good.
 
sear said:
Yes.
Any wind obstruction does that. A tree, a building, even a utility pole.
But the affect is quite limited, quite localized, and almost always de minimis.
Click to expand...
I agree the effect is minor, but in low precipitation years upwind, the precipitation will be even lower as the slightly higher pressure changes the tripping point.

sear said:
Yes.
The historic trend is in the opposite direction. I'd expect that trend to continue for wind turbines, just as it has for PV.
Click to expand...

I have been involved with both the engineering and maintenance aspect of various types of complex systems since the early 80's. I am very, very confident that the maintenance cost of these windmills as they age will make them too costly to use, especially as other power generation decreases in cost like solar.
 
sear said:
d #152

Thanks totally. I deeply appreciate the insight.

For whom?

I ride a Yamaha XT-250 motorcycle, and had the misfortune to park it with the light on.
Hours later I got back to it, and the battery was dead enough to not do anything.
No light bulb filament would even glow.

But we used a rope to tow it up to about 30 MPH, and I eased the clutch out in 5th gear.
It fired right up.

More puzzling, motorcycle batteries are small, and this bike is a 2009.
The battery is OEM, and it's still going fine. I have been keeping a 3 stage charger on it over the Winter.
But I'd assumed I'd have had to replace it by now.

This motorcycle has no kick-start. It's electric, or walk.
==================

I've read that deeply discharging a flat plate batt. can warp a plate and short a cell.
Then instead of a 12v batt. you've got a 10v battery. Not good.
Click to expand...

New car batteries have a very high failure rate when subjected to such things, but that's because most of them are trying to pull 600 or more cold cranking amps from a relatively small package. their plates are thinner and more closely spaced And in the past, the plated would be almost an inch above the bottom. Now the plates sit much closer to the bottom making it easier for contaminates to make them fail.

You likely have a battery with wider spaced plates and plenty of room below the plates, or a gel battery.

A quick search shows the original battery is a Sealed AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat). I believe that is a gel battery.
 
" I am very, very confident that the maintenance cost of these windmills as they age will make them too costly to use, " LP #154
Click to expand...
Me too.
But that's quite different from the evolving technology of wind turbines in general.

60 years ago car engines needed periodic "tune-ups", typically "points, plugs, & condenser".
They needed frequent oil changes, and much more.
Back then most car owners / drivers were on a first name basis with their car mechanic.

I drive a 2016 Honda Civic. It's got almost 5,000 miles on it.

279257748f6a711694873dd617a8bad39602b5f.JPG

The only thing I've done to it so far is check the oil, the TP, put gasoline in it, and install the 3 instruments.
The only maintenance is vacuuming and cleaning the windows.

That's the way technology works.
I expect the same of wind turbine technology.

OF COURSE the ancient ones are going to get more expensive to maintain.

BUT !!

As the technology is refined, I expect these machines to get more robust, more efficient, and lower maintenance.

If they design future generations of wind turbines to be less reliable and require more maintenance I'd be beyond astounded.
 
PS
"the original battery is a Sealed AGM" LP #156
Click to expand...
For the 2009 Yamaha XT-250?

I had no idea!
NO WONDER it's lasting so long!

By my count it's 9 years so far.

I've considered just replacing it anyway.
But the longer it goes, the more curious I get about how much longer it'll go.

======================

I bought a used tractor. When I replaced the battery I installed the very largest battery that would fit in the compartment.
Long term that's the best bet for several reasons.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Besides the birds, wind increases the upwind barometric pressure and lowers the downwind barometric pressure. this has an effect of the climate. Rainfall if one of the things that vary with barometric pressure.

Also, these are monstrous contraption that require expensive maintenance. The first 5-10 years,m they should be relatively maintenance free, but when they start requiring major repairs, their operational costs will escalate very significantly.


I can't speak for elsewhere, but BPA has made remarkable strides so the young salmon can go through the turbines unharmed, and the fish ladders are well placed so the adult spawning salmon can return in very significant numbers.

Dams are not a problem with fish any more. Sea lions are another story. Just this recent decade, sea lions found the fish ladders are a good concentration of food.

Sea Lions Continue Salmon Feast At Bonneville Dam . News | OPB
Click to expand...

Really reaching for that elusive argument? Let's talk about strip mining entire mountains and removing the habitat for a number of species. Let's talk about all the oil spills that have ruined marine habitat in the Gulf, and arctic habitat in Alaska. Let's talk about refinery mishaps that have resulted in huge fresh-water fish kills. Let's talk about coal tailing ponds. You people are an absolute joke. If you want to start talking about eco-destruction and wildlife, you better start looking right into the mirror.
 
Media_Truth said:
Really reaching for that elusive argument? Let's talk about strip mining entire mountains and removing the habitat for a number of species. Let's talk about all the oil spills that have ruined marine habitat in the Gulf, and arctic habitat in Alaska. Let's talk about refinery mishaps that have resulted in huge fresh-water fish kills. Let's talk about coal tailing ponds. You people are an absolute joke. If you want to start talking about eco-destruction and wildlife, you better start looking right into the mirror.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to defend coal the same way.

They do much better with coal than in the past, but I will sill be happy when we can do away with it. It just isn't time to do so yet.
 
beefheart said:
Water. We get about 11 inches of rain each year...but, we get water from the Colorado River and from snow pack in the mountains...and most importantly, the state has lots of water regulations, which is why we are able to handle dought years better than California.
Click to expand...

Until California sucks the Colorado River dry. It is doing its best. I understand parts of Mexico that used to have a river don't because of the upstream pumping in the US.
 
backpacker said:
Until California sucks the Colorado River dry. It is doing its best. I understand parts of Mexico that used to have a river don't because of the upstream pumping in the US.
Click to expand...

Urban legend. The only documented water delivery delinquencies are from Mexico to the US.


[h=3]U.S.-Mexico Water Sharing - Federation of American Scientists[/h]https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R43312.pdf



Mar 2, 2017 - that arise during application of binational water treaties. ... the Colorado River basin) may play in U.S.-Mexican water sharing. ..... Mexican border, especially during dry conditions. ..... 34Because a properly enacted treaty is the “Supreme Law of the Land,” the power to enter into an agreement required.
 
backpacker said:
Until California sucks the Colorado River dry. It is doing its best. I understand parts of Mexico that used to have a river don't because of the upstream pumping in the US.
Click to expand...

We have a big chunk of it..they can't take any more than they have. AZ changed a lot of regulations a few decades back that has really saved us from water shortages...plus, we try not to waste it (some better than others)
 
beefheart said:
We have a big chunk of it..they can't take any more than they have. AZ changed a lot of regulations a few decades back that has really saved us from water shortages...plus, we try not to waste it (some better than others)
Click to expand...
I visited one of my graduate students a few decades ago in Phoenix.
He told me he had to pay an extra fee
to keep a grass lawn. (He also said it kept his house about 10 degrees cooler.)
The other people I knew out there all had desertscape yards.
 
Jack Hays said:
Urban legend. The only documented water delivery delinquencies are from Mexico to the US.


[h=3]U.S.-Mexico Water Sharing - Federation of American Scientists[/h]https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R43312.pdf



Mar 2, 2017 - that arise during application of binational water treaties. ... the Colorado River basin) may play in U.S.-Mexican water sharing. ..... Mexican border, especially during dry conditions. ..... 34Because a properly enacted treaty is the “Supreme Law of the Land,” the power to enter into an agreement required.
Click to expand...

Well as long as someone on the internet says its true

https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0521/p3s1.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/13/us/mighty-rio-grande-now-a-trickle-under-siege.html
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom