Renewable Troubles in Australia

soylentgreen said:

Yet I can read article after article, both on the net and in books and magazines of the agreement that it will reduce in cost as technology improves and is more efficient. Very few are saying the technology has peaked and it will not get better.

Yet the technology for non renewables has hit stumbling blocks. Low emission coal technology costs as much as running coal fire plants as they are now. And they have yet to invest money in any research.

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The technology for things like wind power cannot get much more efficient. For example, they are already close enough to 100% inverter efficiency that the extra 2% theoretically possible is insignificant. Blade shapes and sized also will yield minor improvements, but have you actually ever works and maintained sophisticated machinery?

Solar power is where we have our best chance at cost efficiency in the future.

longview said:

I think Coal is likely at the tail end of what it can do, but can take advantage of the newer combined cycle
technology from natural gas. I think coal will die because of the logistics of moving around a bulky fuel.
The technology in the mechanical portion of windmills if very likely hardened steel bearings, that are near a century old.
They can use modern material science to make the surfaces harder and smoother, but the weight likely means
it is still a bearing surface.
Solar seems to be the real winner in the cost and maintenance area.
I was trying to figure out what the prorated cost of the electricity would be, on a real example system.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1892...system-with-sma-and-40x-solarworld-340-panels
$19,287 (say $25 K with installation) produces 1,885 Kwh per month.
1885 times 12 months times 20 years= 452,400 Kwh.
$25,000/ 425,400Kwh = $.0552 per Kwh.
It would be kind of difficult to beat that unless you have a live stream behind your home!

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The technology will improve. The real question is, will the politics keep up. In australia while the main power suppliers claim big profits the government will back them over renewable energy. The link presented in the op is very biased in favour of the government.

Jack Hays said:

I don't seem to be the dogmatic cultist in this exchange.:roll:

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Well you are the one just presenting link after link. And as "interesting" as they are it does start to get a bit like someone just quoting bits from the bible. And just as meaningless in practice.

Lord of Planar said:

The technology for things like wind power cannot get much more efficient. For example, they are already close enough to 100% inverter efficiency that the extra 2% theoretically possible is insignificant. Blade shapes and sized also will yield minor improvements, but have you actually ever works and maintained sophisticated machinery?

Solar power is where we have our best chance at cost efficiency in the future.

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Australia is a country with a lot of sunlight. Where as new zealand has good wind currents to get efficiency from wind mills. Apparently ohio does not get enough sun light to do solar. It depends on where you are as to what might work best.

soylentgreen said:

Well you are the one just presenting link after link. And as "interesting" as they are it does start to get a bit like someone just quoting bits from the bible. And just as meaningless in practice.

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I prefer to let the data speak for themselves. It's the best counter to green propaganda.

soylentgreen said:

Australia is a country with a lot of sunlight. Where as new zealand has good wind currents to get efficiency from wind mills. Apparently ohio does not get enough sun light to do solar. It depends on where you are as to what might work best.

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Just the same, I will contend wind power is not the way to go. It will be too costly.

[h=2]Shocking electricity price rises coming in Australia: Not a failure of energy policy but a complete “success”[/h]
The numbers are breathtaking. On the east coast of Australia (which means most households in the nation) they are looking at 15 – 20% increases next month on electricity bills which are already at bleeding point.
Get a grip on these numbers:
Charis Chang, News.com –
POWER prices are set to rocket after three major retailers announced increases of up to 20 per cent and $600 a year for the average customer in some states.
Origin, EnergyAustralia and AGL have all announced price increases for electricity and gas starting from July 1.
Small businesses may be the hardest hit, especially Origin customers in South Australia, which will see prices rise by a whopping $1453 a year when increases to gas and electricity bills are combined.
The biggest increase for residential customers will be for AGL customers in ACT, who will pay an extra $579 a year for a combined electricity and gas rise.
In NSW, residential EnergyAustralia customers will see electricity prices increase by up to 19.6 per cent. Origin Energy customers will get a 16.1 per cent rise.
The price hikes will take effect from July 1.
Many are blaming a “failure of energy policy”, but miss the point entirely — this is not failure but success. The aim of those energy policies was to close down coal fired stations and it worked. The Renewable Energy Target, the carbon tax, and other anti “carbon” policies did what they were supposed to do and forced the closure of both the Port Augusta power stations and Hazelwood (which supplied as much as 5% of Australia’s electricity). That left us dependent on gas instead of having the flexibility to ignore the current gas price outlandish cost.
NSW and SA customers walloped:
Keep reading →

Jack Hays said:

[h=2]Shocking electricity price rises coming in Australia: Not a failure of energy policy but a complete “success”[/h]
The numbers are breathtaking. On the east coast of Australia (which means most households in the nation) they are looking at 15 – 20% increases next month on electricity bills which are already at bleeding point.
Get a grip on these numbers:
Charis Chang, News.com –
POWER prices are set to rocket after three major retailers announced increases of up to 20 per cent and $600 a year for the average customer in some states.
Origin, EnergyAustralia and AGL have all announced price increases for electricity and gas starting from July 1.
Small businesses may be the hardest hit, especially Origin customers in South Australia, which will see prices rise by a whopping $1453 a year when increases to gas and electricity bills are combined.
The biggest increase for residential customers will be for AGL customers in ACT, who will pay an extra $579 a year for a combined electricity and gas rise.
In NSW, residential EnergyAustralia customers will see electricity prices increase by up to 19.6 per cent. Origin Energy customers will get a 16.1 per cent rise.
The price hikes will take effect from July 1.
Many are blaming a “failure of energy policy”, but miss the point entirely — this is not failure but success. The aim of those energy policies was to close down coal fired stations and it worked. The Renewable Energy Target, the carbon tax, and other anti “carbon” policies did what they were supposed to do and forced the closure of both the Port Augusta power stations and Hazelwood (which supplied as much as 5% of Australia’s electricity). That left us dependent on gas instead of having the flexibility to ignore the current gas price outlandish cost.
NSW and SA customers walloped:
Keep reading →

Click to expand...

This sounds like if comes from the "it's not a defect, it is a feature, department"!

Jack Hays said:

I prefer to let the data speak for themselves. It's the best counter to green propaganda.

Click to expand...

It is a pity then that you have no data, just pseudo science. It really is no longer the case that you can even offer faith to support you.

Lord of Planar said:

Just the same, I will contend wind power is not the way to go. It will be too costly.

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It is but one way to go. Ans as i have said, the current thinking is that there is much more to advance in these methods and very few who speculate that all that can be done has been.

soylentgreen said:

It is but one way to go. Ans as i have said, the current thinking is that there is much more to advance in these methods and very few who speculate that all that can be done has been.

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Although apparently enough has been done to leverage solar power as the way to go for the KY Coal Museum:


Kentucky Coal Mining Museum switches to solar power | Fox News


FoxNews.com - Breaking News | Latest News | Current News...

Apr 06, 2017 · The Kentucky Coal Mining Museum is switching to ... Kentucky Coal Mining Museum switches to solar ... solar power. The museum in Benham began ...
.

Kentucky's Coal Museum To Be Powered by Solar Energy - CityLab


https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/04/kentucky-coal-museum-solar...

... Kentucky's Coal Museum Will Now Be Powered By Solar. ... coal and solar and all the ... CityLab has reported that in 2015, the solar energy industry grew 12 ...
.

Kentucky Coal Museum shifts to solar power - Courier-Journal


The Courier-Journal...

Video embedded · Kentucky Coal Museum shifts to solar power Inside the Kentucky Coal Museum, visitors can peruse plenty of memorabilia on mining and the commonwealth's coal camps. But ...
.

The Kentucky Coal Mining Museum Will Be Powered by Solar ...


https://futurism.com/the-kentucky-coal-mining-museum-will-be...

The Kentucky Coal Mining Museum Will Be Powered by ... for its power. The Kentucky Coal Mining Museum ... this coal mining museum to solar energy will ...
.

The Kentucky Coal Museum is Powered by… Solar?! | Solar ...


solartribune.com/the-kentucky-coal-museum-is-powered-by-solar

The Kentucky Coal Museum is Powered by… Solar?! ... even there in the heart of coal country. The project includes 20 solar panels installed by Bluegrass Solar, ...
.

To save money, Kentucky Coal Museum turns to solar panels


https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/04/kentucky-coal-museum-is...

To save money, Kentucky Coal Museum turns to solar panels ... The Kentucky Coal Museum is ... The solar installation on the coal museum will generate 60 kW of power ...
.

The Coal Museum Switches To Solar : NPR


www.npr.org/2017/04/07/522968575

Apr 07, 2017 · The Kentucky Coal Museum depicts "the lives that ... The Coal Museum Switches To Solar. ... And WYMT reports the museum gets its power from solar ...

soylentgreen said:

It is a pity then that you have no data, just pseudo science. It really is no longer the case that you can even offer faith to support you.

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The electricity prices in #32 look pretty real.

LowDown said:

They are out to prove that there's no such thing as affordable renewable energy in Australia. Electricity is now 100% to 260% higher in cost since 2015 depending on which state you consider. They put a lot of wind and solar in and gave it top priority. Coal plants backed up the renewables, as must be the case since the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow all the time, but since coal plants can't turn on and off depending on when the sun shines and the wind blows they lose a lot of money keeping the plants hot. The government refused to subsidize this, so then some of the coal plants went out of business unexpectedly suddenly all over Australia. Huge shortages, blackouts and brownouts, were the result, and the price of electricity went up like a rocket. So now the government wants to force the coal plants to stay on line regardless how much money those companies and their shareholders lose.

I suppose that due to the increasing unreliability of the grid people are going to want to install generators, diesel, gasoline, or natural gas powered, in their homes and businesses, which would be ironic.

Link | Daily Telegraph

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This is an opinion piece written by someone who used to be in the previous government. One must take what she says with a grain of salt.

Meanwhile, Large Corporations Are Driving America’s Renewable Energy Boom. And They’re Just Getting Started

RetiredUSN said:

The USA would be in the same boat if the liberals had their way. They have no clue as to a slow easing over to green/renewable.

Click to expand...

Shhhh! Don't tell WalMart.

Target is now the U.S. company that produces the most solar power at its facilities, beating out Walmart for the first time, according to a new report looking at corporate solar power usage in the United States.Other companies with large installations of onsite solar panels include Prologis, Apple, Costco, Kohl's, and IKEA, says a report released on Wednesday by the solar group the Solar Energy Industries Association.

Click to expand...

Jack Hays said:

[h=2]Shocking electricity price rises coming in Australia: Not a failure of energy policy but a complete “success”[/h]
The numbers are breathtaking. On the east coast of Australia (which means most households in the nation) they are looking at 15 – 20% increases next month on electricity bills which are already at bleeding point.
Get a grip on these numbers:
Charis Chang, News.com –
POWER prices are set to rocket after three major retailers announced increases of up to 20 per cent and $600 a year for the average customer in some states.
Origin, EnergyAustralia and AGL have all announced price increases for electricity and gas starting from July 1.
Small businesses may be the hardest hit, especially Origin customers in South Australia, which will see prices rise by a whopping $1453 a year when increases to gas and electricity bills are combined.
The biggest increase for residential customers will be for AGL customers in ACT, who will pay an extra $579 a year for a combined electricity and gas rise.
In NSW, residential EnergyAustralia customers will see electricity prices increase by up to 19.6 per cent. Origin Energy customers will get a 16.1 per cent rise.
The price hikes will take effect from July 1.
Many are blaming a “failure of energy policy”, but miss the point entirely — this is not failure but success. The aim of those energy policies was to close down coal fired stations and it worked. The Renewable Energy Target, the carbon tax, and other anti “carbon” policies did what they were supposed to do and forced the closure of both the Port Augusta power stations and Hazelwood (which supplied as much as 5% of Australia’s electricity). That left us dependent on gas instead of having the flexibility to ignore the current gas price outlandish cost.
NSW and SA customers walloped:
Keep reading →

Click to expand...

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

OMG! And the residents of Australia are just entering their Winter season! Government propaganda about AGW is one thing, but reality should take center stage when the July utility bills start arriving! How many families can afford a $600 to $1400 yearly increase in their utility bills? Unbelievable! :shock:

Jack Hays said:

The electricity prices in #32 look pretty real.

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Yes, they do reflect well the greed of the supply companies and the massive profits they were delivering. Your article is a good example of the current corruption levels in the australian government. That that were the first developed nation to stop using carbon tax a few years ago. That big business companies can make massive profits without any concern.

polgara said:

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

OMG! And the residents of Australia are just entering their Winter season! Government propaganda about AGW is one thing, but reality should take center stage when the July utility bills start arriving! How many families can afford a $600 to $1400 yearly increase in their utility bills? Unbelievable! :shock:

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You have never been to australia. The winters are the best part. It is summers when you get the heat waves and air conditioning is running at max 24/7.

soylentgreen said:

Yes, they do reflect well the greed of the supply companies and the massive profits they were delivering. Your article is a good example of the current corruption levels in the australian government. That that were the first developed nation to stop using carbon tax a few years ago. That big business companies can make massive profits without any concern.

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That doesn't seem to be the view of commenters who read the post. Here's one:

TdeF
June 22, 2017 at 4:56 pm · Reply
You have to think even the socialists and especially the socialists are aghast at their impost on ordinary people. They are the oppressors. For what?
Soak the rich has always been the policy of the left of politics and the high salaried media and university elites.
Endless ‘government’ money which is nothing more than stealing. Now they are facing the fact that the people they are supposedly supporting are the ones who cannot heat or cool their homes at any price. These are people who do not even pay tax and 80% of people are tax negative, receiving more than they pay in tax. They are all hit hard.
Then Labor is killing jobs. The whole car industry. The smelting industry (Steel, Aluminum and more). Glass manufacturers. Whole cities based on metals like Whyalla, Newcastle, Port Pirie, Portland and many more.
Everyone out of work. No one paying taxes. No one can afford to pay the electricity bills and all due to the socialist Green energy.
Blame the greedy capitalists, the failure of the market, international gas cartels, greedy corporate executives, except everyone knows that is not true.
The only jobs booming are the Green public service jobs which are driving Queensland into bankruptcy, borrowing billions overseas to pay wages of people who do nothing. Even they will have trouble cooling their homes.
There will be no disposable income, no holidays, no jobs, no Christmas presents or birthdays in Turnbull’s new Australia. He is looking to his next big UN job and keeping his cash overseas. Shorten too has never had a real job in his life. These are our new self serving politicians. They could not care less, as long as the world is saved from plant food. Now voters have a choice between disaster and more disaster. Peter Slipper, Craig Thomson, Julia Gillard, Kevin Rudd, Stephen Conroy, Nicole Roxon, Julie Bishop, Brownyn Bishop, Jaqui Lambie, Bill Shorten and Malcolm Turnbull. All conviction politicians doing their best for the voters supported by their ABC.

polgara said:

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

OMG! And the residents of Australia are just entering their Winter season! Government propaganda about AGW is one thing, but reality should take center stage when the July utility bills start arriving! How many families can afford a $600 to $1400 yearly increase in their utility bills? Unbelievable! :shock:

Click to expand...

This is where green sustainability at today's level of technology hits the hard place. It costs more and will mean lower living standards for especially the less privileged. Luckily the aussis are rich.

soylentgreen said:

Yes, they do reflect well the greed of the supply companies and the massive profits they were delivering. Your article is a good example of the current corruption levels in the australian government. That that were the first developed nation to stop using carbon tax a few years ago. That big business companies can make massive profits without any concern.

Click to expand...

Before you can say the utilities have massive profits, you have to know the difference between the wholesale and retail rate,
ans well as the maintenance cost the utility pays per unit.
If the price is increasing it could simply mean their cost has increased.
I think if prices are increasing it may be because the price the utilities must pay for solar surplus power is higher than
the price they pay for wholesale power, this increases the cost of goods sold of the electricity.
https://www.australiansolarquotes.com.au/solar-power-rebates/solar-feed-in-tariff/
https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-ma...cs/annual-volume-weighted-average-spot-prices
It looks like the feed in tariffs (the price paid for surplus solar electricity) is between 5 – 50c per kWh,
while the wholesale rate is between 2.2 and 12.5c per kWh.
Anytime the feed in tariff rate exceeds the wholesale rate, the difference must be made up in higher charges to
non feed in tariff customers, or something has to be cut back, ether personnel, maintenance, or profits.

soylentgreen said:

Your article is nothing more than the usual full of **** ranting of a climate change denier. Complete lies nothing else.

When your article says, " They put a lot of wind and solar in and gave it top priority. " Who is " they", certainly not the government.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/03/australian-electricity-prices-have-doubled-since-the-carbon-tax-was-abandoned/


This is not about renewable energy it is instead about how climate change deniers are nothing more than the lackeys of those who will create excessive profits for their own greed.
Comparing Australia's electricity charges to other countries shows why competition isn't working


This thread is just another example of the pathetic lack of intelligence in your cherry picked crap to deny climate change

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The absolute lowness of the lies in the OP show me that they are getting desperate. Heat records are being broken all over the world and the time is running out to do something. It is interesting that Australia was picked for this latest lie. They broke 205 heat records in their 2016/2017 summer that is ending now.

Summer heat broke 205 records and more extreme weather is to come, Climate Council of Australia reports - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

iguanaman said:

The absolute lowness of the lies in the OP show me that they are getting desperate. Heat records are being broken all over the world and the time is running out to do something. It is interesting that Australia was picked for this latest lie. They broke 205 heat records in their 2016/2017 summer that is ending now.

Summer heat broke 205 records and more extreme weather is to come, Climate Council of Australia reports - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Click to expand...

[h=2]If only Yes Minister had done the global warming thing (oh look…!)[/h]
Excellent comedy, if you haven’t already seen this. (Adapted from the Stage Play “Yes Prime Minister”)

Yes Prime Minister Global Warming etc Part 1 from Aris Motas on Vimeo.
Part II

Yes Prime Minister Global Warming etc Part 2 from Aris Motas on Vimeo.
Written by Antony Jay and Johnathan Lynn. BBC.
h/t Waxing Gibberish and Friends of Science on Facebook.

soylentgreen said:

You have never been to australia. The winters are the best part. It is summers when you get the heat waves and air conditioning is running at max 24/7.

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I have been to Brisbane, capitol of Queensland, and also visited many people living on large farms in the area, but only during their "Spring" season, which is our early Fall. I have kangaroo and other refrigerator magnets that I got there, and I also bought some beautiful fire opals while there to be made into some gorgeous jewelry for me to wear! :thumbs:

It's a very long trip from NE Ohio, but I intend to go back one day - there's so much that I didn't have time to see - Ayers Rock for one! :yes: One unusual thing was seeing that water circles counter-clockwise when going down the drain, exactly opposite from what it does here! You guys just enjoy being different, right? :lamo

longview said:

Before you can say the utilities have massive profits, you have to know the difference between the wholesale and retail rate,
ans well as the maintenance cost the utility pays per unit.
If the price is increasing it could simply mean their cost has increased.
I think if prices are increasing it may be because the price the utilities must pay for solar surplus power is higher than
the price they pay for wholesale power, this increases the cost of goods sold of the electricity.
https://www.australiansolarquotes.com.au/solar-power-rebates/solar-feed-in-tariff/
https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-ma...cs/annual-volume-weighted-average-spot-prices
It looks like the feed in tariffs (the price paid for surplus solar electricity) is between 5 – 50c per kWh,
while the wholesale rate is between 2.2 and 12.5c per kWh.
Anytime the feed in tariff rate exceeds the wholesale rate, the difference must be made up in higher charges to
non feed in tariff customers, or something has to be cut back, ether personnel, maintenance, or profits.

Click to expand...

And after you have looked at all those things and still must come to the conclusion that the rise in cost is due to corruption while the attention being focused on renewable energy is an excuse not the reason why such corruption occurs. One of the many charges of corruption that is being done is;
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jess-hill/power-corrupts

Since 2009, the electricity networks that own and manage our “poles and wires” have quietly spent $45 billion on the most expensive project this country has ever seen. Allowed to run virtually unchecked, they’ve spent vast sums on infrastructure we don’t need, and have charged it all to us, with an additional fee attached. The spending was approved by a federal regulator, and yet the federal government didn’t even note it until it was well underway.

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soylentgreen said:

And after you have looked at all those things and still must come to the conclusion that the rise in cost is due to corruption while the attention being focused on renewable energy is an excuse not the reason why such corruption occurs. One of the many charges of corruption that is being done is;
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jess-hill/power-corrupts

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I am not saying the Utilities are nice people,(they are not in the US, and I suspect are not in Australia),
but they have real costs, and adding in feed in tariffs to those cost, must be fed back to the customers.
As to what they spend on improving the grid, you have to ask yourself, how often are you willing to go without power,
and for how long?