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58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warming -

Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

A lot of the modern world was built by government investing in technologies before their commercial benefits became clear to the free market: airplanes, rockets, satellites, nuclear power, lasers, satellites, solid state, cancer and genetics research, etc... Even now, governments around the world are investing in some very bizarre cutting edge technology whose commercial uses are not at all clear right now: light the giant particle collider research being done at places like CERN in Switzerland or the FermiLab here in the US. If the Dept of Energy doesn't fund this, no private corporation in their right mind would fund it right now. The technology is too immature, its applications too unclear at this time. Only once the technology becomes mature will it be ready for the free market.

The free market is a very powerful tool, no question. But it is not the answer to everything. I could never understand this almost religious faith of conservatives in the free market. It goes beyond just seeing it as a useful tool, as a means to an end. It is an end to itself, something which if worshipped obediently and blindly enough, has omnipotence to grace us with everything. We just must believe and have faith, right?
I am all for basic research, and it is a viable role for government.
There is however a big difference between say funding fusion research and dictating that 10% of all fuels will contain corn ethanol.
The solar tax credits were great for encouraging early adopters, but the prices are now such that solar can stand on it's own.
The only think the government needs to do to advance home solar, is to unify the grid attach rules,
so the utilities do not loose money with each solar addition (which is a real problem).
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

You may be overreacting.

Not overreacting at all. The herd closed ranks for protection. The explanation you cited reminded me of something out of Koestler's Darkness at Noon.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

Not overreacting at all. The herd closed ranks for protection. The explanation you cited reminded me of something out of Koestler's Darkness at Noon.

You may know that Gregor Mendel was an Austrian monk who first came up with the basic laws of dominant and recessive inheritance in genetics with his research on plants. It was later found out that some of his research was a little "fudged", to make it look more convincing. Does that mean we should now dispense with all modern genetics and look for some new "paradigm"?

The "climategate" was not even that big a deal as that. It was some private communications which were hacked into, filtered and taken out of context, to make it seem like some "scandal". It wasn't. Scientists are allowed to express personal opinions in their private correspondence. It's not a crime.

"Eight committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct.[15] However, the reports called on the scientists to avoid any such allegations in the future by taking steps to regain public confidence in their work, for example by opening up access to their supporting data, processing methods and software, and by promptly honouring freedom of information requests.[16] The scientific consensus that global warming is occurring as a result of human activity remained unchanged throughout the investigations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy
[17]

You are just really, really wanting it to be something it's not.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

link 1: Was mostly positive with questions about the IPCC ideas of globally pricing carbon.
No, it was a straw-man attack on Krugman for promoting solar energy.


link 2: 2011 6 years old!
Why does the publication date matter? Is it not relevant that conservatives have been hostile to renewables and conservation since the 80s? (Reminder: Reagan yanked Carter's solar panels from the White House roof.) It's an attack on teaching solar power in schools, and another instance of conservatives attacking renewables.


link 3: Correctly states that requiring renewable energy purchases, disrupts market forces.
It's an attack on a law that requires states to purchase 15% of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.


link 4:Same as 3 except the renewable energy requirement was for the DOD.
Or, it's an attack on the idea that the DOD should put money into renewable, sustainable, independent energy supplies.


link 5: Was pointing out that Solyndra was in trouble, hint, they were!
Actually, it was using vague suggestions of trouble at Solyndra to hammer the idea of any government involvement in supporting R&D into renewables.


link 6: Allowing the energy tax credits to expire. They have already done their job....
Yes, it is Cato finally finding a tax cut that they didn't like.

I'm sure I could find lots more, notably among right-wing pundits like Limbaugh, Malkin, Krauthammer, Coulter etc., but I'm not sure what the point is, since you seem incapable of recognizing that most conservatives are antagonistic to environmentalist concerns.


You want to say in one breath, that people have to make choices that you deem acceptable,
and at the same time say it will not bring down anyone's lifestyle!
I would ask according to who, you?
I'd say, according to anyone with half a brain.

Americans are incredibly wasteful, in all sorts of ways. We throw out half the food we buy; we buy -- and throw away -- nearly 80 billion new items of clothing, amounting to 14 million pounds of textile waste; we throw out electronics like used tissue paper. The average American generates 1600 pounds of trash per year, nearly 30% of the Earth's waste.

And does it make us happier and healthier? Nope. Americans are stressed, don't get enough sleep, are getting heavier and sicker, are frustrated and unhappy, drowning in stuff that we don't need.

So yes, I feel quite comfortable pointing out that those particular aspects of the American way of life are unsustainable and harmful. I'd also say criticizing consumerism is seldom a hallmark of modern conservatism, with the exception of some social conservatives.


People will adopt alternate energy without any government regulation.
They will use it because it is the best value choice, selected by market forces.
Efforts by the government to pick a winner through regulation, will almost surly select an inferior path,
Examples include corn ethanol, and Solyndra.
OK, again? Corn ethanol is not renewable, is not sustainable, is not green, is not promoted by environmentalists, it doesn't save much on emissions. It was pushed by conservatives like Bush 43, who pushed it for energy independence and as a sop to Big Corn.

Solyndra didn't fail because it borrowed money from the government. It failed because the price of a major component for competing solar tech (polysilicon) cratered, and was exacerbated by (*cough* subsidized) Chinese companies dumping cheap solar PV on the market. Despite how many other companies with similar loans and government support succeeded, Solyndra became a convenient target for anyone who thought government shouldn't be involved in R&D. Unsurprisingly, this is leaving China and other international competitors a huge window of opportunity to dominate the renewable energy space.

In most cases, market advantages to low-emissions fuels like natural gas are a fluke. NG happens to be cheap -- for the moment -- so the environment might get a break. Solar, wind, tidal and other alternative energy didn't get cheaper on their own, it happened in part because governments invested in the R&D. I.e. the market doesn't give a **** about environmental concerns, and cannot be trusted to make the most environmentally sound choices.

And let's not forget, the government already is picking winners -- specifically in the fossil fuel space. Subsidies, pipelines, opening up pristine land to drilling, waging wars to secure oil supplies... the list goes on.


So yes, I feel pretty good about saying that with the exception of a small percentage of social conservatives and evangelicals who have caught on to environmentalism, conservatives are generally hostile to green technology
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

You may know that Gregor Mendel was an Austrian monk who first came up with the basic laws of dominant and recessive inheritance in genetics with his research on plants. It was later found out that some of his research was a little "fudged", to make it look more convincing. Does that mean we should now dispense with all modern genetics and look for some new "paradigm"?

The "climategate" was not even that big a deal as that. It was some private communications which were hacked into, filtered and taken out of context, to make it seem like some "scandal". It wasn't. Scientists are allowed to express personal opinions in their private correspondence. It's not a crime.



You are just really, really wanting it to be something it's not.

As I said, the herd closed ranks for protection. None of the "investigations" was worthy of the name. I strongly suspect the outside hackers had inside help. And I don't think anything was taken out of context. Believe as you wish; as I cited before, ​Darkness at Noon.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

As I said, the herd closed ranks for protection. None of the "investigations" was worthy of the name. I strongly suspect the outside hackers had inside help. And I don't think anything was taken out of context. Believe as you wish; as I cited before, ​Darkness at Noon.

The scientists, poor things, have to close ranks for lots and lots of nonsense from the lay public. There is a HUGE amount of lack of information, or even outright misinformation, some of it unintentional, some of it more deliberate, in the lay public. It is a morass of confusion and misunderstanding.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

Ok, to sum up, we have 190 countries, the AAAS, other scientific bodies, Science and Scientific American mags, all the liberal parties in the developed world, major energy corporations like Exxon, the Defense Dept., all the conservative parties in the developed world except part of the GOP... VS. Breitbart, Syria, Trump (who refuses to amplify on his "it's a Chinese plot" comments) and some posters here. Why not have Donald commission a study involving y'all and submit it to the signers of the Paris agreement? The scales will drop from their eyes once they stop laughing. Seriously, it's only good news for all of us if the accepted science is false. Prove it, bring back coal jobs, and we can argue about other things.

Simplest analysis: conservatives are skeptical cause if true, the dominant analysis suggests the anathema of government regulation. Liberals less skeptical of government regulation, more likely to believe the science. McCain's comments appeal to me: even if human affected climate change not true or not as true, the suggested solutions are probably good public policy anyway.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

Resistance to solar
Resistance to wind
Resistance to energy conservation and efficiency
Resistance to electric cars / Adoration of gas guzzlers
Minimal interest in scaling back the disposable consumer lifestyle



Pushing biofuels wasn't "harmful" to the development of other technologies.

It's also pretty obvious that conservatives have a knee-jerk rejection of pretty much any regulations.
Few are "resistant" to these ideas. Its the subsidies we are resistant to.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

Few are "resistant" to these ideas. Its the subsidies we are resistant to.
Oh, it's the subsidies that are the problem? And yet, I don't hear many conservatives screaming about the approximately $20 billion in annual subsidies provided to the fossil fuel industry. Rather, I see most of the conservative media treating the fossil fuel industry with kid gloves, even when they act in an indefensible manner (*cough* Deepwater Horizon *cough*)....
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

Oh, it's the subsidies that are the problem? And yet, I don't hear many conservatives screaming about the approximately $20 billion in annual subsidies provided to the fossil fuel industry. Rather, I see most of the conservative media treating the fossil fuel industry with kid gloves, even when they act in an indefensible manner (*cough* Deepwater Horizon *cough*)....

When will your side stop with the silly strawman arguments, and learn the definition of "subsidy." You guys really show your ignorance calling a tax break, a subsidy. Repeated incorrect use of words that you regurgitate from the pundits gives you zero credibility in an intelligent debate.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

global-warming-lies-750.jpg

The global warming scare tactic made Gore rich. It funded many a research program. It has produced...precisely dick. All of the Goracles gloom and doom scenarios have proven to be laughably true and the one reliable thing we can see is that whenever the facts fail to support the hypothesis, the global warming 'scientists' will rush to recalculate their data and tables, adjust the historical record, and make new predictions for 30-70 years down the road.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

The idea that different people have different solutions to an issue should not come as a surprise.
Just because people speak out against a way that may achieve something does not automatically
mean they are not looking for solutions, perhaps just not the preordained ones.
P.S. Solyndra failed because their choice of how and where to spend the massive government loan,
precluded their ability to compete when the price of panels started dropping.
As I recall, their new factory built on some of the most expensive land in the US,
had a price point for a 200 watt panel at $800.
Had they instead built into an old building somewhere in the rust belt, the building and property
would likely bee almost free, and their cost of goods sold, perhaps low enough to compete.
Once again, people will massively use green technology, when it is the lowest cost choice naturally.
This will happen on it's own without government intervention.
The very first thing the Federal Government needs to do at this point is to unify the grid attachment rules,
for home solar. The current quilt work of rules causes pushback from the utilities, who own the grid.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

Sure. But that's not even most of what's really raising so many alarms right now. This is:

Solar and wind energy budget face 70 percent cut - The Washington Post
I suspect if the The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) has been doing the job assigned,
they own large quantities of license able intellectual property, whose funding will allow continued research.
National Renewable Energy Laboratory Technologies Available for Licensing - Energy Innovation Portal
NREL's technologies available for licensing span across its distinctive competencies in:

Renewable electricity conversion and delivery systems
Renewable fuels formulation and delivery
Efficient and integrated energy systems
Strategic energy analysis.
Some research funding is great, too much and the recipients become sloppy spenders.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

McCain's comments appeal to me: even if human affected climate change not true or not as true,
the suggested solutions are probably good public policy anyway.
I would first ask if you know what the suggested solutions are, that you agree with McCain, that will make good public policy?
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

The idea that different people have different solutions to an issue should not come as a surprise.
Just because people speak out against a way that may achieve something does not automatically
mean they are not looking for solutions, perhaps just not the preordained ones.
P.S. Solyndra failed because their choice of how and where to spend the massive government loan,
precluded their ability to compete when the price of panels started dropping.
As I recall, their new factory built on some of the most expensive land in the US,
had a price point for a 200 watt panel at $800.
Had they instead built into an old building somewhere in the rust belt, the building and property
would likely bee almost free, and their cost of goods sold, perhaps low enough to compete.
Once again, people will massively use green technology, when it is the lowest cost choice naturally.
This will happen on it's own without government intervention.
The very first thing the Federal Government needs to do at this point is to unify the grid attachment rules,
for home solar. The current quilt work of rules causes pushback from the utilities, who own the grid.
That's what happens when you use "other people's money." You have "no skin in the game."
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

The scientists, poor things, have to close ranks for lots and lots of nonsense from the lay public. There is a HUGE amount of lack of information, or even outright misinformation, some of it unintentional, some of it more deliberate, in the lay public. It is a morass of confusion and misunderstanding.

AGW advocates are the primary barriers to free information flow, as was evident in Climategate emails.
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

When will your side stop with the silly strawman arguments, and learn the definition of "subsidy." You guys really show your ignorance calling a tax break, a subsidy. Repeated incorrect use of words that you regurgitate from the pundits gives you zero credibility in an intelligent debate.
:roll:

OK, let's look at what the government does for fossil fuel companies.

• Industry-specific tax credits, including on cleanup costs for spills
• Low-cost loans
• Reduced royalties for using federal lands for fossil fuel production
• Conducts R&D on production and exploration
• The Department of Energy in 2005 loaned $8 billion to fossil fuel companies for R&D on coal-to-liquid, coal gasification and similar new technologies
• Tax credits for MLPs, 75% of which are fossil fuel partnerships

If you classify a "subsidy" solely as "government outlays to the industry?" Yep, fossil fuel companies are getting them.

If you are concerned that the federal government is picking winners in energy generation? Yep, the federal government is doing that, by providing industry-specific tax breaks, low-cost loans, low-cost access to federal lands, and funding R&D.

If you are concerned that the government is losing money in supporting an industry? Yep, they're doing that too, with poorly structured loans to fossil fuel companies, and lost revenue through tax breaks and cheap land grants.

Your outrage seems awfully selective....
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

That's what happens when you use "other people's money." You have "no skin in the game."
By that logic, any company that borrows funds, or pretty much every startup funded by venture capital, is doomed to failure.

Funny thing, Solyndra did have private investors, to the tune of $1 billion, and was profitable for several years.

Solyndra didn't get a handout. It got a $535 loan guarantee from the DoE -- a loan program that, despite losing big on Solyndra, went into the black in 2015 (Exclusive: Controversial U.S. energy loan program has wiped out losses | Reuters).

What happened was that the bottom fell out on competing products, which killed the market for what Solyndra was offering. One aspect of that change was Chinese solar manufacturers, subsidized by China's government, dumping cheap PV on the global market.

By the way, our own Borrower in Chief has repeatedly set up development projects where he puts in very little of his own capital; the venture borrows extensively; and the partners and creditors are the ones on the hook. I take it we should therefore expect more of his private ventures to fail...?
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

By that logic, any company that borrows funds, or pretty much every startup funded by venture capital, is doomed to failure.

Funny thing, Solyndra did have private investors, to the tune of $1 billion, and was profitable for several years.

Solyndra didn't get a handout. It got a $535 loan guarantee from the DoE -- a loan program that, despite losing big on Solyndra, went into the black in 2015 (Exclusive: Controversial U.S. energy loan program has wiped out losses | Reuters).

What happened was that the bottom fell out on competing products, which killed the market for what Solyndra was offering. One aspect of that change was Chinese solar manufacturers, subsidized by China's government, dumping cheap PV on the global market.

By the way, our own Borrower in Chief has repeatedly set up development projects where he puts in very little of his own capital; the venture borrows extensively; and the partners and creditors are the ones on the hook. I take it we should therefore expect more of his private ventures to fail...?

Does that apple taste like an orange?
 
Re: 58 New (2017) Papers Invalidate Claims Of Unprecedented Global-Scale Modern Warmi

:roll:

OK, let's look at what the government does for fossil fuel companies.

• Industry-specific tax credits, including on cleanup costs for spills
• Low-cost loans
• Reduced royalties for using federal lands for fossil fuel production
• Conducts R&D on production and exploration
• The Department of Energy in 2005 loaned $8 billion to fossil fuel companies for R&D on coal-to-liquid, coal gasification and similar new technologies
• Tax credits for MLPs, 75% of which are fossil fuel partnerships

If you classify a "subsidy" solely as "government outlays to the industry?" Yep, fossil fuel companies are getting them.

If you are concerned that the federal government is picking winners in energy generation? Yep, the federal government is doing that, by providing industry-specific tax breaks, low-cost loans, low-cost access to federal lands, and funding R&D.

If you are concerned that the government is losing money in supporting an industry? Yep, they're doing that too, with poorly structured loans to fossil fuel companies, and lost revenue through tax breaks and cheap land grants.

Your outrage seems awfully selective....

a little more detail on those subsidies.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/drilli...about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/#1b0a11ed6e1c

And just for the record. I think there i are opportunities for Government to partner with private industry to help create more renewable energy sources.
 
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