Engineering problems with grid wide solar

Simple Physics Solutions to Storing Renewable Energy ? NOVA Next | PBS
This is an interesting article about some problems encountered for a large solar installed base.
I still think solar is the best long term solution moving forward, but we should do so
with our eyes open to the limitations.

Then the eclipse happened. Immediately before, German solar panels were pumping out a combined 21.7 GW of electricity. At the eclipse’s peak, it dropped to 6.2 GW, and rebounded to 15 GW after the moon had passed.

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While an eclipse is rare, it demonstrates some of the limitations of solar power.
As the article points out and I have said before, energy storage is the key.

longview said:

Simple Physics Solutions to Storing Renewable Energy ? NOVA Next | PBS
This is an interesting article about some problems encountered for a large solar installed base.
I still think solar is the best long term solution moving forward, but we should do so
with our eyes open to the limitations.

While an eclipse is rare, it demonstrates some of the limitations of solar power.
As the article points out and I have said before, energy storage is the key.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about that too. I have several battery powered tools that when in use require swapping their discharged batteries with charged ones in order to keep working. That system works fine if, and only if, I have extra already charged batteries available.

The same system, charging "extra" batteries in advance of their need, could be the key to making electric cars (and trucks?) practical. If a standard car battery could be agreed upon then roadside "filling" stations could perform that battery swapping in a few minutes instead of the hours it takes an electric vehicle motorist to stop and recharge their original batteries. That could make the range of an electric car (or truck?) comparable to its fossil fuel competition. Solar power plants that have excess power during the day could certainly be a boon to supplying that battery recharging station power.

longview said:

Simple Physics Solutions to Storing Renewable Energy ? NOVA Next | PBS
This is an interesting article about some problems encountered for a large solar installed base.
I still think solar is the best long term solution moving forward, but we should do so
with our eyes open to the limitations.

While an eclipse is rare, it demonstrates some of the limitations of solar power.
As the article points out and I have said before, energy storage is the key.

Click to expand...

Efficiency is the big issue. Energy put in for amount of energy put out.



Solar is near the bottom of the list.

calamity said:

Efficiency is the big issue. Energy put in for amount of energy put out.

Solar is near the bottom of the list.

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I an not sure solar counts on the same efficiency list, as the efficiency of energy that was
not used is irrelevant, I.E. if we do not harvest the sunlight, it goes to waste.

longview said:

I an not sure solar counts on the same efficiency list, as the efficiency of energy that was
not used is irrelevant, I.E. if we do not harvest the sunlight, it goes to waste.

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Or worse, it does damage or makes you crank on the AC to combat it.


I read recently that Musk is pushing solar roofing tiles. I think I read $60K for a roof that cost maybe $10K in shingle. Now, if that should catch on and eventually come down in cost, it will be a great thing.

I have seen parking canopies made of solar panels. I read about potentially laying highways made of solar photocells. All sorts of options exist. But, as for "efficiency," my understanding is that manufacturing those panels is a dirty and costly process. Of course, with our best minds on the job, most of those problems will slowly but surely be mitigated.

calamity said:

Or worse, it does damage or makes you crank on the AC to combat it.


I read recently that Musk is pushing solar roofing tiles. I think I read $60K for a roof that cost maybe $10K in shingle. Now, if that should catch on and eventually come down in cost, it will be a great thing.

I have seen parking canopies made of solar panels. I read about potentially laying highways made of solar photocells. All sorts of options exist. But, as for "efficiency," my understanding is that manufacturing those panels is a dirty and costly process. Of course, with our best minds on the job, most of those problems will slowly but surely be mitigated.

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Rooftop and canopy solar panels will be great when they're sufficiently cost-effective.

Solar Freakin' Roadways is the dumbest idea ever, fundamentally flawed on absolutely every level.

calamity said:

Or worse, it does damage or makes you crank on the AC to combat it.


I read recently that Musk is pushing solar roofing tiles. I think I read $60K for a roof that cost maybe $10K in shingle. Now, if that should catch on and eventually come down in cost, it will be a great thing.

I have seen parking canopies made of solar panels. I read about potentially laying highways made of solar photocells. All sorts of options exist. But, as for "efficiency," my understanding is that manufacturing those panels is a dirty and costly process. Of course, with our best minds on the job, most of those problems will slowly but surely be mitigated.

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I think Musk's idea is misplaced, a normal solar panel roof is under $20K for most homes,
the only benefit to the solar roof tiles are aesthetics, which may be worth an extra $40K to some, but I suspect not most.
Just so you do not think I am blowing smoke over the price, here is an example,
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891...-with-solaredge-and-32x-astronergy-305-panels
$12 K for a monthly output roughly 1,300 Kwh, and I was thinking about $8k for the installation.

Deuce said:

Rooftop and canopy solar panels will be great when they're sufficiently cost-effective.

Solar Freakin' Roadways is the dumbest idea ever, fundamentally flawed on absolutely every level.

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Not when the road spans from the Mississippi to the Sierra. Think of the tens of thousands of miles of empty roadways out West, most without a single tree hanging over them.

longview said:

I think Musk's idea is misplaced, a normal solar panel roof is under $20K for most homes,
the only benefit to the solar roof tiles are aesthetics, which may be worth an extra $40K to some, but I suspect not most.
Just so you do not think I am blowing smoke over the price, here is an example,
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891...-with-solaredge-and-32x-astronergy-305-panels
$12 K for a monthly output roughly 1,300 Kwh, and I was thinking about $8k for the installation.

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I think the selling point was it lasts forever and you don't need the extra structure. It may be a bit gimmicky, but if the cost comes down, maybe not.

calamity said:

I think the selling point was it lasts forever and you don't need the extra structure. It may be a bit gimmicky, but if the cost comes down, maybe not.

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Most people vote with their wallets!
From my perspective, if I can invest $16 K in something that cuts my cost by $130 a month,
then that is like getting a 9% rate of return.
I know people talk about payback time, but simply saving(not spending) that amount has real value also.

longview said:

Most people vote with their wallets!
From my perspective, if I can invest $16 K in something that cuts my cost by $130 a month,
then that is like getting a 9% rate of return.
I know people talk about payback time, but simply saving(not spending) that amount has real value also.

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A nice tax credit would sweeten the pot, as well.

calamity said:

A nice tax credit would sweeten the pot, as well.

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There is already a 30% tax credit.

In major cities...you will need a power plant alternative. Especially where apartment complexes and high rises are involved there just isnt enough area coverage to provide significant power source. In more rural communities, rooftop solar and wind turbine power generation combined with more efficient construction could eliminate the need for all or most 110VAC external power sources.

No matter how you slice it...until a better fuel source is found, we will need hydro, coal, oil, and nuclear plant production. I dont think there will ever be a time when renewable energy sources will provide sufficient power for cities.

longview said:

There is already a 30% tax credit.

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It would be ideal if all new homes were engineered and built with alternative energy capabilities.

VanceMack said:

It would be ideal if all new homes were engineered and built with alternative energy capabilities.

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I think the builder could do it cheaper than the homeowner, the only question is, would they pass the savings on to the home buyer,
or mark it up to greater than the post market value.

longview said:

I think the builder could do it cheaper than the homeowner, the only question is, would they pass the savings on to the home buyer,
or mark it up to greater than the post market value.

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Sure..and thats the sad reality. I mean it would be normal and even appropriate to include costs of equipment and labor for installation...but I could easily see that markup happening...especially if the government included tax incentives and subsidies.

calamity said:

Not when the road spans from the Mississippi to the Sierra. Think of the tens of thousands of miles of empty roadways out West, most without a single tree hanging over them.

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I have an idea for a tweak that will, at bare absolute minimum, double the power output of the solar roadway project. More realistically it will easily quadruple the output. Would you like to hear this tweak?

Step 1: Move the solar panels to the side of the road.
Step 2: Tilt them south (in the northern hemisphere) like every other solar panel that exists
Step 3: Don't drive on your solar panels

Laying a panel on the ground, flat, is the worst possible way to position a solar panel. You're giving up half the annual power right off the bat. On top of that we're going to add the losses from the thicker, textured glass required to support a car. Then we're going to add every bit of grease, grime, dirt, dust, rocks, bird crap, etc, that constantly afflicts our roads.

Oh, and now we're going to scratch the ever-loving hell out of the glass. Solar Roadways guy glosses over this by stating that tempered glass is very hard. Hardness and durability aren't the same thing. Don't believe me? Grab any random piece of asphalt that has broken off a local street. Take that to the window of your car, which will be tempered glass most likely. Now rub that asphalt on your car window. Just by hand. You don't even have to press very hard.

Not willing to do it, eh? Well, now imagine instead of the force of your arm, the force grinding that rock into glass is the weight of a truck.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Solar Roadways' problems. Did I mention the ~50 trillion dollar price tag? (and that's optimistic)

Deuce said:

I have an idea for a tweak that will, at bare absolute minimum, double the power output of the solar roadway project. More realistically it will easily quadruple the output. Would you like to hear this tweak?

Step 1: Move the solar panels to the side of the road.
Step 2: Tilt them south (in the northern hemisphere) like every other solar panel that exists
Step 3: Don't drive on your solar panels

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:lol:

calamity said:

:lol:

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My other favorite: the idea that these solar roadways would self-heat in the winter, preventing ice formation. No more having to plow roads, woo! What's that, thermodynamics? You have an objection?

So, you can't get more watts out than the sun puts into the panel. Even a magic panel with 100% efficiency in both collection and the heater operation is still only going to equal the number of watts that hits that area from the sun. So, the solar energy available is your limiting factor. And you need lots of it to melt snow. Turns out, there actually is a scenario where there's sufficient solar energy available to melt snow on a large scale.

We call it "spring."

That's not even really calculating the huge efficiency losses... oh, and the time when you need the most heat is during a heavy snowstorm. How effective is a solar panel in a snowstorm, do you think?