Wind Machines Neither Clean Nor Green?

Media_Truth said:

Most of the wind installations are in locations, with near non-stop wind velocity. Solar is especially attractive to Utilities, in that it provides maximum generation during peak load hours (3-6 pm on sunny summer days). Peak load is what Utilities to forecast construction of new power plants or power plant expansion, driving up the cost of electricity. So solar helps to keep everybody's rates low.

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Windmill farms change climate. Possibly the reason for the southern California droughts.

Lord of Planar said:

Windmill farms change climate. Possibly the reason for the southern California droughts.

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Backup please...

Media_Truth said:

Most of the wind installations are in locations, with near non-stop wind velocity. Solar is especially attractive to Utilities, in that it provides maximum generation during peak load hours (3-6 pm on sunny summer days). Peak load is what Utilities to forecast construction of new power plants or power plant expansion, driving up the cost of electricity. So solar helps to keep everybody's rates low.

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The try to find places with non stop wind, but are only mildly successful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor
Wind power has a fairly low capacity factor.
I do think solar will help lower the summer peaks across the south.
The real benefit will come from seasonal energy storage, where long summer days in the North
could store energy for winter heating.

Media_Truth said:

Backup please...

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It's obvious to anyone who has a basic understanding of meteorology.

What is a high pressure area, and does it rain more or less?

The back pressure cause by windmills makes the upstream areas slightly higher in pressure, hence less precipitation.

Simple physics.

Visbek said:

Or.... not

Wind generates around 5.5% of the electricity in the US, and 13% in Germany. Its carbon footprint is near zero. There are definitely issues with birds, but other types of power generation does far more damage to wildlife than wind and solar. There is definitely more room for growth in wind.

We will still need to use fossil fuels for some time. That doesn't mean that we should stop using or developing wind.



Yeah, that sounds like nonsense. Especially since it doesn't go up every single year.

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https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/KeyRenewablesTrends.pdf

Now...All can do is cite the sources. The IEA says the total production globally is less tan 1%. Is there contrary evidence?

I think the greatest potential for use of wind technology is small scale...home use. We have several homes in the unincorporated parts of the county that are completely off the grid and use a blend of wind and solar. Conversely...the county has installed 3 massive turbines that have shown to be ineffective. The saving grace is that because the base area is so large they installed 3 solar farms that are producing some energy for the county. And it appears to be a universal problem.

Nocookies | The Australian

"The back pressure cause by windmills makes the upstream areas slightly higher in pressure, hence less precipitation.
Simple physics." LP #154

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I believe on the scale that applies today, that would be "micro-meteorology".
It may be simple physics. But I doubt the windmills operating in California today have enough influence to affect a drought one way or another.

It may cause a local gradient. But it's not clear to me how it would have a significant net affect on atmospheric H2O Statewide.

sear said:

I believe on the scale that applies today, that would be "micro-meteorology".
It may be simple physics. But I doubt the windmills operating in California today have enough influence to affect a drought one way or another.

It may cause a local gradient. But it's not clear to me how it would have a significant net affect on atmospheric H2O Statewide.

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So you agree with me.

When it already doesn't rain much, or would be low rainfall already, such changes in barometric pressure can make significant precipitation changes in the affected areas.

"When it already doesn't rain much, or would be low rainfall already, such changes in barometric pressure can make significant precipitation changes in the affected areas." LP #157

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"Significant"?
What sort of affect do you have in mind?
A diminution, or increase in precip. of <1%? Perhaps.
Would it be enough to significantly affect wildlife? Kill off rodent species for example?
Or kill off enough vegetation to matter? I doubt it.

I'm not a meteorologist.
But I suspect "barometric pressure" applies to meteorology, not micro-meteorology.
A

"affected areas" ?

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What sort of area do you have in mind?
Square feet? Perhaps.
Square meters? Perhaps.
Acres? I doubt it.

And please bear in mind, in California it usually wouldn't matter. In California, it's usually not precipitating.

And further, it's not clear to me that one wind-turbine has more affect on micro-meteorology than one giant sequoia.

btw:
If you do know a lot about meteorology, can you explain to me what the "moist idiomatic lapse rate" is?

My thanks to author Denis Pagan for introducing me to this topic.

PS

sear previously posted:

But I suspect "barometric pressure" applies to meteorology, not micro-meteorology.
A

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I omitted that:
on the scale of today's wind turbines, it's probably more accurately referred to as "air pressure".

Lord of Planar said:

No breakdowns. Are we suppose to take it on faith, like the rest of the AGW dogma?

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:roll:

Move the goalposts much?

Lazard is an asset management and research firm; their purpose is to advise customers (mostly large financial institutions) on how to invest. They don't have an agenda, are and not paid by any governments.

Go ahead, give them a call. I'm sure they will be more than happy to provide you with their proprietary research. For free.

sear said:

Please pardon me. I'm new to this site, and late to this topic.

Has anyone yet mentioned the impact wind turbines is having on our raptor populations?

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Yes.

It's actually far less than the damage done to avian populations by pollution and greenhouse gases.

It's also far less than the damage done by domesticated cats. Windmills kill around 200,000 birds per year in the US; domestic cats kill 1 billion birds per year in the US.

It's also rather amusing that the people who normally don't give a **** about environmental impacts want to shut down wind turbines because of the effects on bird populations.

And yes, designers are trying to mitigate that impact.

Lord of Planar said:

It's obvious to anyone who has a basic understanding of meteorology.

What is a high pressure area, and does it rain more or less?

The back pressure cause by windmills makes the upstream areas slightly higher in pressure, hence less precipitation.

Simple physics.

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Of course it is. You don't need any backup.

Visbek said:

Yes.

It's actually far less than the damage done to avian populations by pollution and greenhouse gases.

It's also far less than the damage done by domesticated cats. Windmills kill around 200,000 birds per year in the US; domestic cats kill 1 billion birds per year in the US.

It's also rather amusing that the people who normally don't give a **** about environmental impacts want to shut down wind turbines because of the effects on bird populations.

And yes, designers are trying to mitigate that impact.

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I have a residential wind turbine (and solar PVs), and I have seen NO dead birds, despite the fact that there are a lot of birds in the area.

Thanks V #161

"designers are trying to mitigate that impact." V #161

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How?
Visual?
Audible?
Turbulator pits?

MT #163

Nice rig.
What's the average generating capacity, over a day or a week?

If you store energy locally, how do you store it?

Do you feed the grid with it? (run your meter backward?)

I live on a hilltop, and might do well with a wind-turbine.
But my commercial electric bill (National Grid) is often under $30.oo / month. So it's not a big priority.

I also run an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). The storage medium is Optima batteries. They're AGM design, with cylindrical cells.
They're pricey ($200.oo / each). But they give off little if any Hydrogen, so I can keep them in the house (it gets cold here in Winter, and such batteries lose efficiency when below freezing).
But the roof is still on the house.

I like it. I've had it long enough that I've had a few commercial power fails at night. The lights never flicker. They simply don't go out. They stay on when the power drops to zeroVDC.
Sure beats stumbling around in the dark looking for the flashlight with the dead battery.

sear said:

Thanks V #161

How?
Visual?
Audible?
Turbulator pits?

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From what I know, there are a few options.

• Location. Turbines in migration paths are obviously more problematic. Also, while obviously more dramatic, offshore wind turbines have minimal impacts on wildlife.

• Speed. Turbines that turn on at slightly higher wind speeds are apparently far less damaging, and sacrifice very little power generation.

• Downtime. Turning off turbines during migration periods, or when large flocks are headed for the turbines, or during foggy times, can also reduce bird strikes.

• Design. Fewer and larger turbines reduce issues. Figuring out why some birds are attracted to wind farms is also in progress. Newer designs discourage roosting on the turbines.

And again, as far as bird fatalities go, wind turbines do present a problem to be solved -- but it's nowhere near as bad a problem as cats, radio towers, power lines and so forth.

V #165

Excellent.
Informative.
Useful.

Thanks.

sear said:

Thanks V #161

How?
Visual?
Audible?
Turbulator pits?

MT #163

Nice rig.
What's the average generating capacity, over a day or a week?

If you store energy locally, how do you store it?

Do you feed the grid with it? (run your meter backward?)

I live on a hilltop, and might do well with a wind-turbine.
But my commercial electric bill (National Grid) is often under $30.oo / month. So it's not a big priority.

I also run an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). The storage medium is Optima batteries. They're AGM design, with cylindrical cells.
They're pricey ($200.oo / each). But they give off little if any Hydrogen, so I can keep them in the house (it gets cold here in Winter, and such batteries lose efficiency when below freezing).
But the roof is still on the house.

I like it. I've had it long enough that I've had a few commercial power fails at night. The lights never flicker. They simply don't go out. They stay on when the power drops to zeroVDC.
Sure beats stumbling around in the dark looking for the flashlight with the dead battery.

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My wind turbine is rated 2.4kW. The solar panels 2.8kW. Yes, I have a netmetering account with the electrical provider. I run a surplus every month, and we get a check at the end of the year. There is a fixed fee, which my surplus used to easily cover, but they've raised it, gradually, from $9.99 per month to $35.99 per month, over a 5-year period. Mandatory netmetering was voted in by the people of Colorado, and the Utilities dislike mandates, so the rising Fixed Fees is their Political form of revenge. In those 5 years, usage fees have actually decreased, which is regressive policy, in that it rewards the wealthy trophy-home owner, and penalizes the poor, with less usage.

Yeah, you probably couldn't justify the cost of a wind turbine. In addition, if you have a choice, I would recommend the solar panels. There are fewer moving parts, and very old systems, are still producing at near optimum efficiency, with no maintenance expense, after 20 years. The residential wind turbine business took a hit, when Southwest Wind Energy out of Flagstaff, AZ, the largest US company, declared bankruptcy. My turbine is from them, so I no longer have any warranty. So far, so good (fingers crossed).

M #167

Totally! $36 per month is obviously a crock. It's very too bad such a government regulated utility is allowed to get away with it.
I appreciate your insight on wind vs solar.
Problem is, in the part of New York State I live in (the Adirondack Park), we're in the lee of two Great Lakes, Erie, and Ontario.
Our skies are grey perhaps 6 months of the year.
I'd need a very large array to supply my meager needs under those conditions.

Commercial power is fine for me.
But after being here 17 years, I finally gave in and bought a small gasoline powered generator.
But I do feel silly using $10.oo worth of gasoline to keep $4.oo worth of food from spoiling in my 3.3 cubic foot energy star fridge.
Its freezer section is quite small, but I keep a one gallon plastic jug of H2O in it, which remains frozen.
When the power fails, it literally becomes an "ice box".

I really like my UPS.
It provides comfortable, fail-safe, flicker-free light, runs my computer so I don't have to worry about the power rug being jerked out from under, etc.
If you make one, beware of Hydrogen!