• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Arguing Climate Change minutiae, and the Bigger Picture!

Do you think we should prepare or just sit around and wait for the market to invent better energy sources? My fear is that if we wait on the market we will be far behind other countries that are now taking the initiative to improve their technology in sustainable energy. It puts the Unites States at a disadvantage if we don't push for more research as well.

When it makes sense to have a different fuel to power the stuff we are using power to power, then that different fuel will used.

It's really pretty simple.

Right now, oil is still the cheapest, most powerful and most portable source of energy ever put into use.

When a different fuel is more powerful, more portable and cheaper, it will replace oil.

How many coal fired locomotives have you seen lately?
 

The talk given by one of the Professors from the Fraunhofer institute,
said the efficiency could be improved by locating next to a CO2 source!​

And that process is called what, Photosynthesis?

I come up with this link:

http://www.cell.com/chem/pdf/S2451-9294(16)30147-4.pdf

Questions questions, questions - Well one really, do you think the Fraunhofer
guys will come up with a process that's more efficient than an Iowa cornfield?

I always love this kind of an approach to a problem.

Plants create power from sunlight and carbon in the air and the waste product is O.

THIS is the future of our energy needs.

The answer is there waiting to be discovered. Our genius inventors will find it and the rest of us will be impatient when the miracles they present to us aren't perfect in every use.

They always start out with a thing of promise that either fails completely or grows as others see a new path to exploit.

Marconi probably did not envision a network of communication satellites in orbit around the Earth and Marco Polo probably did not envision GPS navigation.
 
I followed your link and read through the blurb and picked off and sorted the following words and phrases:



Lots of buzzwords. I was looking for something substantial and I didn't
find it. As blurbs go, it's not a lot more meaningful than one that you
get from one of those gibberish generators you can find on line.

Sorry to be such a cynical so-and-so but that's my take on it.
No problem, I think The Fraunhofer institute is more basic research.
The practical side was started by Audi, and the Naval Research Labs.
https://www.audi.de/corporate/en/su...udi/product/synthetic-fuels-Audi-e-fuels.html
Fuel - Sunfire
https://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news...ter-Carbon-Capture-Process-Receives-US-Patent
The basic process is they get hydrogen from water, and CO2 from ether seawater or direct from the atmosphere.
They create basic hydrocarbon structures, much like a cracking refinery, and then assembly the correct ratios for the fuel desired.
The Navy claims the process 60% efficient, but Sunfire says they have gotten up to 70% efficiency.
These efficiencies may not seem high, but if Solar power becomes widely installed, there will be very large surpluses of
electrical power in spring and fall periods,(Between the heating and cooling seasons).
I think it help to think of the hydrocarbons as simply an energy storage device.
The thing that has been missing from most alternative energy plans is storage, This may be a solution.
I think it has a greater possibility than most others, because the refineries can buy the surplus electricity, and store that
wasted energy as a fuel product compatible with existing needs and distribution infrastructure.
 
I think you are right about that. In the short term, that is probably the most viable solution. I'm hoping battery technology improves, but that's a longshot for high density storage.

Batteries will need some major advance in technology, they are much better than they used to be, but still like several times less energy dense than fuel and and engine.
I could see fuel cells with the energy still being carried by liquid hydrocarbons, and the hydrogen stripped off as needed.
 
When it makes sense to have a different fuel to power the stuff we are using power to power, then that different fuel will used.

It's really pretty simple.

Right now, oil is still the cheapest, most powerful and most portable source of energy ever put into use.

When a different fuel is more powerful, more portable and cheaper, it will replace oil.

How many coal fired locomotives have you seen lately?

I'm not arguing that fuel sources won't naturally switch over as more sustainable sources become cheaper. I'm arguing that pushing to become independent of non-renewable energy is smart in terms of national security over the long term.
 
I'm not arguing that fuel sources won't naturally switch over as more sustainable sources become cheaper. I'm arguing that pushing to become independent of non-renewable energy is smart in terms of national security over the long term.

The issue, though, is this:

Pushing to make the transition is idiotic.

The transition will occur naturally as the BETTER alternatives are developed.

"Pushing" will promote the pursuit of boondoggles like the corn made into fuel and the various wind farms that duplicate the power sources already in place.

It will also curtail the implementation of proven good alternatives like nuclear.
 
Batteries will need some major advance in technology, they are much better than they used to be, but still like several times less energy dense than fuel and and engine.
I could see fuel cells with the energy still being carried by liquid hydrocarbons, and the hydrogen stripped off as needed.

Funny thing is that is I ever did go solar, I would use the old school nickle-iron batteries. Heavy as hell, and not a great power density, but they will last longer than the rest of the system. Once purchased, never need to replace them.

I agree with the fuel cell setup. I advocate that myself as a viable system. Make your own hydrogen for energy storage and use a fuel cell for power when needed. I think the nickle-iron batteries are a better choice unless they come up with a fuel cell that will last over 20 years.
 
I'm not arguing that fuel sources won't naturally switch over as more sustainable sources become cheaper. I'm arguing that pushing to become independent of non-renewable energy is smart in terms of national security over the long term.

You can only push so hard. Even small pushed become very costly.
 
Funny thing is that is I ever did go solar, I would use the old school nickle-iron batteries. Heavy as hell, and not a great power density, but they will last longer than the rest of the system. Once purchased, never need to replace them.

I agree with the fuel cell setup. I advocate that myself as a viable system. Make your own hydrogen for energy storage and use a fuel cell for power when needed. I think the nickle-iron batteries are a better choice unless they come up with a fuel cell that will last over 20 years.

The original idea for storage from Germany, was to make "un-natural" gas and store summer surplus electricity as natural in the natural gas grid for winter heating.
The concept guys envisioned a home unit to do this, now everyone is looking at larger scale plants to make the hydrocarbons.
There is something to be said about storing energy in a container that is good forever.
I am not familiar with the nickle-iron battery, but will look at it.
I just finished an electric tricycle, but ended up using sealed lead acid, the lithium were too expensive and had that catch on fire issue.
 
The original idea for storage from Germany, was to make "un-natural" gas and store summer surplus electricity as natural in the natural gas grid for winter heating.
The concept guys envisioned a home unit to do this, now everyone is looking at larger scale plants to make the hydrocarbons.
There is something to be said about storing energy in a container that is good forever.
I am not familiar with the nickle-iron battery, but will look at it.
I just finished an electric tricycle, but ended up using sealed lead acid, the lithium were too expensive and had that catch on fire issue.

Nickle-iron are simply robust. Like I said, heavy and the power density is not high at all. However, in a fixed location for a home, I believe them to be the best choice.

They don't work well for long term storage, but the need with solar would be primarily night time use, and short term high energy use like baking.

Nickel Iron Batteries

https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/23188191/131353642/name/NiFeFlyer.pdf

https://ironedison.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery
 
Last edited:
From the second on my four links:


WHY CAN A NICKEL-IRON BATTERY LAST 40 YEARS?

In a lead-acid battery the acidic electrolyte interacts with the plates during every
charge and discharge cycle, causing lead to shed off the plates and reducing the
battery capacity. From the day you start charging a lead-acid battery you are losing
capacity with each use, ending in plate disintegration.
With a nickel-iron battery there is NO chemical interaction between the plates
and the electrolyte. In fact the electrolyte used in a nickel-iron battery (potassium
hydroxide, i.e. KOH) is a metal preserver.
Exposure to air causes the electrolyte to form potassium carbonate and lose its
ability to conduct electricity. One to two electrolyte replacements may be needed
to replenish the battery capacity in its lifetime. The need to replace electrolyte
depends on many factors, but is relatively easy with proper equipment. This is
why we have nickel-iron batteries in the field that are producing 100% of their rated
capacity after over 50 years of use!
 
Nickle-iron are simply robust. Like I said, heavy and the power density is not high at all. However, in a fixed location for a home, I believe them to be the best choice.

They don't work well for long term storage, but the need with solar would be primarily night time use, and short term high energy use like baking.

Nickel Iron Batteries

https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/23188191/131353642/name/NiFeFlyer.pdf

https://ironedison.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

They could be a viable choice for home solar.
I think the real winner will be something with seasonal storage, the ability to move energy acquired in fall or spring, for winter heating or summer cooling.
From a technical perspective, it would be easier to solve the existing problems with grid tied systems.
 
They could be a viable choice for home solar.
I think the real winner will be something with seasonal storage, the ability to move energy acquired in fall or spring, for winter heating or summer cooling.
From a technical perspective, it would be easier to solve the existing problems with grid tied systems.
True. Much of that however changes with latitude and altitude. I use almost as much electricity cooling in the summer as I do heating in the winter, but then the winter hours of sunlight are shorter.

Still, I would want to be off grid if I ever invested in a solar setup. The extra summer energy can be turned to hydrogen and/or hydrocarbons for fuel cell power or oil heating.
 
True. Much of that however changes with latitude and altitude. I use almost as much electricity cooling in the summer as I do heating in the winter, but then the winter hours of sunlight are shorter.

Still, I would want to be off grid if I ever invested in a solar setup. The extra summer energy can be turned to hydrogen and/or hydrocarbons for fuel cell power or oil heating.

I can see the appeal to cutting the cord to the power company, but from a practical standpoint grid attached seems to offer
some advantages in the price of the system and functional use.
I think off grid require like twice the capacity (Panels) compared to a grid attached that would simply minimize the electric bill.
There is now a third option called grid assist, which is somewhat of a middleground.
 
I must admit I haven't learned a lot about future energy pathways - partly because there's so many people on the forum who'll promote views that humans aren't even responsible for the CO2 increase, or that there has been no reliably-recorded global temperature increase, or that the earth was being warmed in 2000 by how hot the sun was in 1960. Not much point discussing solutions with people who won't even acknowledge the problem :doh

There's a lot of interesting ideas in this thread, but many of them seem to have an extremely narrow scope: Just one element of the long-term trajectory of portable energy supply.

Firstly, let's not forget that for most light and local uses there's every indication that electric vehicles can perform just as effectively (indeed, more energy efficiently) as their petrol-operated counterparts. This is technology which is commercially viable now, not projections predicated on future oil price increases, and even many of the current potential limitations are being pushed back as we speak. Higher-density liquid fuels may always have a place in air, sea and heavy or long-range road transport, but solely focusing on them seems a little tunnel-visioned.

It will very hopefully be the case that artificial liquid fuels will eventually be cheaper than oil-based products. But even if high demand meant the former started entering commercial use in the next five years, it would still be potentially many decades before petrol from the most accessible oil reserves is eclipsed entirely or even brought substantially below current levels, because I gather that the biggest issue is rate of production not the quantities available. The way things are going, when artificial fuels first enter commercial use they will be replacing the most exotic forms of oil extraction to meet excess demand, not replacing most conventional production. The transition, if and when it happens, almost certainly will not occur soon enough to contribute enough in avoiding the widely-cited target of 2 degrees' global warming.

Furthermore if the production of artificial fuels ends up using coal-generated electricity (ditto for electric vehicles), I imagine that anything less than 100% efficiency in the process would mean that it's simply increasing greenhouse gas emissions. That would be the likely consequence of refusing to come to terms with the reality of global warming and the need to reduce emissions, and promoting artificial fuels as a potentially carbon-neutral path forward while opposing any other facet of energy transition. Coal is cheap and abundant. Of course it's also deadly - responsible for an estimated 13,000 annual deaths in the US and comparable figures in the EU - but these are externalities which have so far evaded much public attention, let alone regulation. Oil and natural gas are cleaner than coal; but the fact is that all forms of organic combustion emit harmful particulates in addition to greenhouse gases, and if an issue looming as large in public consciousness as climate change passed without effective regulation there's no reason whatsoever to imagine that less widely-recognised concerns could be addressed! The transition away from combustion technologies towards 20th and 21st century solar, wind, hydro and nuclear where needed has always been desirable, and it's probably been inevitable, but as long as the health and climate change externalities are not addressed the transition will remain much slower than it should.


(Continued below...)
 
Last edited:
Fourthly, looking only at the supply of energy seems to me an extremely misguided approach: Improvements in efficiency of all sorts would mean less consumption and hence, usually, less cost to consumers. For example extensive urban sprawl, especially in big countries like the US and Australia, leads to a great deal of unnecessary pollution from commuters' vehicles. I imagine there's a lot of room for improvement in city planning, including better mass transit systems and foot- and bikeways. Regulation could easily ensure minimum efficiency standards in electrical appliances, ratcheting up as technology improves. Regulation in the building industry is perhaps even more important, with mandatory standards for insulation and the like potentially slashing householders' electricity consumption for heating and cooling. International freight shipping is another big area of waste and unnecessary greenhouse emissions, with goods being shipped back and forth around the world to find the lowest labour and environmental costs for production and best market prices for sale. A price or tax on carbon emissions may be the only practical way to deal with that, and it would result in upward pressure on consumer prices, but on the other hand it would also mean less downward pressure on labour and environmental standards - perhaps fewer Chinese sweatshop workers would lose their jobs to Bangladeshis willing to work for half the price :lol:


Finally, with the possible exception of international shipping, it's important to note that I don't think it's necessary that government involvement in any of these areas needs to take the form of taxes or subsidies - which certainly have potential pitfalls as well as potential benefits. For example, instead of taxing coal power an option would simply be regulation requiring all new power plant projects meet zero-emission (both GHG and harmful particulate) standards, along with whatever improvements are feasible upgrades for existing plants. If coal power is still commercially viable as a genuinely clean option, fantastic! If not, it's likewise important to note that the result is not a distortion of the sacred Market - it is a correction of the previously-uncosted externalities which distorted the market in coal's favour.

In general I would tend to favour the regulatory approach, if for no other reason than because less monetary interchange between government and business means a little less scope for special interest lobbying and corruption. But I don't think there's likely to be any one-size-fits-all answer.
 
Last edited:
I can see the appeal to cutting the cord to the power company, but from a practical standpoint grid attached seems to offer
some advantages in the price of the system and functional use.
I think off grid require like twice the capacity (Panels) compared to a grid attached that would simply minimize the electric bill.
There is now a third option called grid assist, which is somewhat of a middleground.

Yes, off grid probably needs double the capacity. But the pesky pricing will never go away. I figure if I have enough to go solar, may as go all-out.
 
Not much point discussing solutions with people who won't even acknowledge the problem :doh
There's a lot of interesting ideas in this thread, but many of them seem to have an extremely narrow scope: Just one element of the long-term trajectory of portable energy supply.
The problem is the IPCC identified the wrong problem, the problem is energy.
By addressing the real problem with a solution compatible with existing demands, we can solve both the primary problem (energy)and the possible problem CO2.

Firstly, let's not forget that for most light and local uses there's every indication that electric vehicles can perform just as effectively (indeed, more energy efficiently) as their petrol-operated counterparts.
It will very hopefully be the case that artificial liquid fuels will eventually be cheaper than oil-based products.
Firstly, most vehicles are not electric, and it will be many years before they are. Rather than requiring people replace millions and millions of vehicles,
wouldn't it be quicker to change the fuel those vehicles use to something that does not add CO2?
Since we know both the wholesale price of electricity and the stated efficiency, we do not have to be hopeful about someday,
it actually has a price attached. If the wholesale price is $50 per Mwh, then oil above $95 a barrel would be unsustainable.
The reason it would be unsustainable, is the refinery operators, will use whatever process makes them the most profit.

Furthermore if the production of artificial fuels ends up using coal-generated electricity (ditto for electric vehicles), I imagine that anything less than 100% efficiency in the process would mean that it's simply increasing greenhouse gas emissions. That would be the likely consequence of refusing to come to terms with the reality of global warming and the need to reduce emissions, and promoting artificial fuels as a potentially carbon-neutral path forward while opposing any other facet of energy transition. Coal is cheap and abundant.

I think the source will almost have to be home Solar (sold at the wholesale rate)or Nuclear, because the economics do not support making a hydrocarbon fuel from a hydrocarbon fuel.
They already know how to make liquid fuel from coal, just not cheaply.
FYI Nuclear is quite a bit cheaper than fossil fuel electricity, at least according to US Government.
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_04.html


Fourthly, looking only at the supply of energy seems to me an extremely misguided approach: Improvements in efficiency of all sorts would mean less consumption and hence, usually, less cost to consumers. I imagine there's a lot of room for improvement in city planning, including better mass transit systems and foot- and bikeways.
No one said we should stop looking for improvements in efficiency, those have been ongoing and will continue.
We are capable of making net zero homes already.
If we can build on that and create net zero lives, why would we need to restrict where or how people choose to live?

Finally, with the possible exception of international shipping, it's important to note that I don't think it's necessary that government involvement in any of these areas needs to take the form of taxes or subsidies - which certainly have potential pitfalls as well as potential benefits. For example, instead of taxing coal power an option would simply be regulation requiring all new power plant projects meet zero-emission (both GHG and harmful particulate) standards, along with whatever improvements are feasible upgrades for existing plants.
I would rather the Governments let things die naturally, rather than regulating them out of existence.
regulations cause some form of black and grey markets, because they generate a possible profit gap to be exploited.
If things die on their own, there was no profit left to exploit.

Once again the real problem is energy! we simply do not have enough fossil fuels, to allow everyone on earth to live
a first world lifestyle. The approach I am discussing would provide a sustainable path forward, capable of supporting billions
of people at first world levels.

Part of the issue is that the best form of energy storage available (hydrocarbon) has been demonized to the point
the some people refuse to consider it.
The next closest contender for storing hydrogen is ammonia, which has been used as a fuel, but it is dangerous and smells bad.
Our current widespread demands, and infrastructure are setup to use hydrocarbon fuels,
making those fuels carbon neutral would be the fastest path to reducing CO2 emissions,
and in addition provide a path forward for Humanity.

P.S. in the long term, I could easily see fuel cell electric jets with hydrocarbon hydrogen storage.
if do right it, could double the range of existing jets.
 
Last edited:
Yes, off grid probably needs double the capacity. But the pesky pricing will never go away. I figure if I have enough to go solar, may as go all-out.
I have two problems, not enough roof, and my wife has not bought on to the idea of panels on the front of the house.
 
Firstly, most vehicles are not electric, and it will be many years before they are. Rather than requiring people replace millions and millions of vehicles,
wouldn't it be quicker to change the fuel those vehicles use to something that does not add CO2?
Since we know both the wholesale price of electricity and the stated efficiency, we do not have to be hopeful about someday,
it actually has a price attached. If the wholesale price is $50 per Mwh, then oil above $95 a barrel would be unsustainable.
The reason it would be unsustainable, is the refinery operators, will use whatever process makes them the most profit.

I didn't say anything about forcing people to immediately replace vehicles. But the average age of cars in the United States is 11.5 years, so if 100% of new cars sold as of tomorrow were electric, in a little over a decade petrol vehicles would be in the minority. That's not going to happen obviously, and I'm not even saying that government should do anything at all about car sales; as I said, I don't know much about the topic, but ignoring the electric option altogether as you did seems a little short-sighted. Electric vehicles might have overtaken petrol in thirty years without anyone lifting a finger to interfere - especially if oil prices return towards $95 a barrel!

But as I noted, whatever the scenario - artificial fuels, more electric vehicles, or both - on its own it still won't stop the extraction and use of cheap, easy-to-access oil any time soon. There's plenty of that in the ground, at least from what I've read, it's just the limited rate of extraction and increasing demand which pushes up prices and makes more difficult reserves commercially viable. Therefore future developments which reduce or alternatively cover excess oil demand might replace the most exotic oil production approaches, but not necessarily the cheap stuff, the stuff that can still be extracted for less than $95 a barrel (or whatever the threshold turns out to be). So unless electricity itself became a lot cheaper, left solely to market forces I'd guess that neither of these technologies are likely to reduce oil consumption much below 2000 levels, if that.

I think the source will almost have to be home Solar (sold at the wholesale rate)or Nuclear, because the economics do not support making a hydrocarbon fuel from a hydrocarbon fuel.
They already know how to make liquid fuel from coal, just not cheaply.
FYI Nuclear is quite a bit cheaper than fossil fuel electricity, at least according to US Government.
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_04.html

If electricity from coal were cheaper (and without stringent cleanliness regulations it currently is cheaper than solar), that's what would be used. Of course you're talking about excess supply periods if and when solar and wind power made up a large fraction of total generation, and that'd be great as far as it goes; but that's just adding one more step and several more decades before artificial hydrocarbons are likely to reach anything approaching their full potential.

The point about coal is interesting. If it's not particularly viable to make a liquid hydrocarbon from a solid one, would it really be any better burning coal to make electricity to make a hydrocarbon from air? I don't know, but it'd be strange if adding in extra intermediary steps somehow made for a more efficient process. Okay, if nuclear is cheaper that's great: But why add in more intermediary steps there, either? Make electricity to make hydrocarbons to run a car - why not just make electricity to run a car on and save most of that 30-40% efficiency loss you've mentioned? From what little I understand of the subject, I can certainly see how artificial hydrocarbons would have a place in air and sea transport, and storage for electricity generation in nights and winters once solar and wind power are bigger players: But for average household cars, the best outcome would almost certainly be more electric vehicles.

I would rather the Governments let things die naturally, rather than regulating them out of existence.
regulations cause some form of black and grey markets, because they generate a possible profit gap to be exploited.
If things die on their own, there was no profit left to exploit.

Is that your reasoning for heroin, lead paint and asbestos too?
 
Last edited:
I didn't say anything about forcing people to immediately replace vehicles. But the average age of cars in the United States is 11.5 years, so if 100% of new cars sold as of tomorrow were electric, in a little over a decade petrol vehicles would be in the minority. That's not going to happen obviously, and I'm not even saying that government should do anything at all about car sales; as I said, I don't know much about the topic, but ignoring the electric option altogether as you did seems a little short-sighted. Electric vehicles might have overtaken petrol in thirty years without anyone lifting a finger to interfere - especially if oil prices return towards $95 a barrel!

But as I noted, whatever the scenario - artificial fuels, more electric vehicles, or both - on its own it still won't stop the extraction and use of cheap, easy-to-access oil any time soon. There's plenty of that in the ground, at least from what I've read, it's just the limited rate of extraction and increasing demand which pushes up prices and makes more difficult reserves commercially viable. Therefore future developments which reduce or alternatively cover excess oil demand might replace the most exotic oil production approaches, but not necessarily the cheap stuff, the stuff that can still be extracted for less than $95 a barrel (or whatever the threshold turns out to be). So unless electricity itself became a lot cheaper, left solely to market forces I'd guess that neither of these technologies are likely to reduce oil consumption much below 2000 levels, if that.



If electricity from coal were cheaper (and without stringent cleanliness regulations it currently is cheaper than solar), that's what would be used. Of course you're talking about excess supply periods if and when solar and wind power made up a large fraction of total generation, and that'd be great as far as it goes; but that's just adding one more step and several more decades before artificial hydrocarbons are likely to reach anything approaching their full potential.
Electric cars are not yet to the point with price or effectiveness,that people will choose one over liquid fuel car.
Most trips could be handled by the electric, but not all, and having a second vehicle for occasional use is not budget friendly.
I think they may be able to be a hybrid electric, but the price is still higher than a similar gasoline version.
As to the oil in the ground, all that fracking causes the wells to run dry faster, and adds to the cost of goods sold of the oil extracted.
Supplies will drop quickly enough, as the current oversupply comes to an end.
The $95 a barrel is based on wholesale electricity being $.05 per Kwh, but wholesale prices can go as low a $.026 per Kwh.
So unless electricity itself became a lot cheaper, left solely to market forces I'd guess that neither of these technologies are
likely to reduce oil consumption much below 2000 levels, if that.
I know this is a requote of above, but your statement implies that you do not understand the goal.
The goal is to reduce CO2 emissions, and provide a sustainable energy future for the entire planet.
If we switch to carbon neutral fuels, new CO2 emissions could practically stop,
but more importantly, we have a way to store alternate energy, in a useful container, for later use.

The reason why the electric car is not as viable as the electrically generated fuel car, is range and reliability.
Electricity must be used within seconds of creation, or it turns into heat. As we generate more power
from the alternates sources, the surplus waves will become larger, and more difficult to deal with.
The refineries can serve the roll of dump load and store all the surplus as fuels needed for other applications.
Short of some amazing battery advancements, I do not see the electric car being viable as anything but a second commuter car.
When I look at how Science has moved in the past, a more likely long term would be a fuel cell electric,
with hydrocarbon energy storage. You still buy fuel at a regular station, but the reformer strips off hydrogen for the fuel cell.
Mr Carnot, is finally allowed some rest, and mileage almost doubles.
 
The world is now adding about 800 million people each decade (trend based on 1950 with 2.5 billion to 2010 with 6.9 billion people). The econuts have swapped population growth for global warming as the true boogie man because the proposed solutions sound much better. To get rich folks (nations?) to fund cleaner energy is not nearly as hard to sell as getting them to prevent (remove?) excess people.

It is lost on you that the more Earth's populations grows the more important "clean energy" is?
 
Back
Top Bottom