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Karl et al Debunked

For some reason Science has cut off public access to Karl, et al 2015, I was looking at it and copying from it today.
The concept we know of as AGW, is based on the high rate of warming between 1978 and 1998,

Well gee, you really should inform President Johnson's staff about that :roll: A 1965 a report by the US President's Science Advisory Committee summarized the risks implied by and limitations to contemporary understanding of CO2 emissions:
The possibility of climatic change resulting from changes in the quantity of atmospheric carbon dioxide was proposed independently by the American geologist, T. C. Chamberlain (1899) and the Swedish chemist, S. Arrhenius (1903), at the beginning of this century. Since their time, many scientists have dealt with one or another aspect of this question, but until very recently there was little quantitative information about what has actually happened. Even today, we cannot make a useful prediction concerning the magnitude or nature of the possible climatic effects. But we are able to say a good deal more than formerly. . . .


One of the most recent discussions of these effects is given by Moller (1963). He consisders the radiation balance at the earth's surface with an average initial temperature of 15°C (59°F), a relative humidity of 75 percent, and 50% cloudiness. We may compute from his data that with a 25 percent increase in atmospheric CO2, the average temperature near the earth's surface could increase between 0.6°C and 4°C (1.1°F to 7°F), depending on the behaviour of atmospheric water vapour content. . . . A doubling of CO2 in the air, which would happen if a little more than half the reserves of fossil fuels were consumed, would have about three times the effect of a twenty-five percent increase.

As Moller himself emphasized, he was unable to take into account.... In consequence, Moller's computations probably over-estimate the effects on atmospheric temperature of a CO2 increase.​

there was statistically ZERO warming
between 1950 and 1978, so adding any of that period, only flattens out the period between 1978 and 1998.
Karl ended in 2014 not 2015, so showing an ending after the El Nino had started is not relevant.

2015 is 2015.0 not 2015.99. I'm sure I've pointed this out to you in the past, when you tried to make a big deal out of some 'problem' you discovered thinking that 1998.10 should be October 98.

The simple fact which you seem utterly desperate to avoid acknowledging is that the rate of warming over the twenty years from 1978 is entirely consistent with
A) The warming from El Nino to El Nino (1998-2016), which Karl & co did not have access to, and
B) The warming if that's pushed back to neither start nor end with an El Nino (1995-2014 or 1996-2014) and
C) The warming if the start were merely pulled forwards to avoid the El Nino (1999-2014)
trend


Karl et al instead chose to follow a similar base period and 15-year modern trends as the IPCC, but either way the consistency of results is the same. You can certainly cherry-pick some brief period which merely begins with a strong El Nino which has a lower 'best estimate' warming rate - as Karl et al clearly show in their Figure 1 - but that 'slowdown' is not statistically robust. Even the 1978-98 rate of warming lies well within their 90% confidence interval for the 1998-2012 trend.
 
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Fresh round of hacked climate science emails leaked online | The Guardian (November 23rd, 2011)

A fresh tranche of private emails exchanged between leading climate scientists throughout the last decade was released online on Tuesday. The unauthorised publication is an apparent attempt to repeat the impact of a similar release of emails on the eve of the Copenhagen climate summit in late 2009.

The initial email dump was apparently timed to disrupt the Copenhagen climate talks. It prompted three official inquiries in the UK and two in the US into the working practices of climate scientists. Although these were critical of the scientists' handling of Freedom of Information Act requests and lack of openness they did not find fault with the climate change science they had produced. . . .



One marked difference from the original 2009 release is that the person or persons responsible has included a message headed "background and context" which, for the first time, gives an insight into their motivations. Following some bullet-pointed quotes such as "Over 2.5 billion people live on less than $2 a day" and, "Nations must invest $37 trillion in energy technologies by 2030 to stabilise greenhouse gas emissions at sustainable levels," the message states:

"Today's decisions should be based on all the information we can get, not on hiding the decline. This archive contains some 5.000 emails picked from keyword searches. A few remarks and redactions are marked with triple brackets. The rest, some 220.000, are encrypted for various reasons. We are not planning to publicly release the passphrase. We could not read every one, but tried to cover the most relevant topics." . . . .



Mann, director of the Earth System Science Centre at Penn State University, who is quoted in the batch of released emails described the release as "truly pathetic".

When asked if they were genuine, he said: "Well, they look like mine but I hardly see anything that appears damning at all, despite them having been taken out of context. I guess they had very little left to work with, having culled in the first round the emails that could most easily be taken out of context to try to make me look bad."

He said, the people behind the release were "agents doing the dirty bidding of the fossil fuel industry know they can't contest the fundamental science of human-caused climate change. So they have instead turned to smear, innuendo, criminal hacking of websites, and leaking out-of-context snippets of personal emails in their effort to try to confuse the public about the science and thereby forestall any action to combat this critical threat. Its right out of the tried-and-true playbook of climate change denial."​

If what M.Mann says was true there presumably would be people wandering about approaching scientists and who ever to try to get them to do this sort of thing for money.

That would produce reports of this sort of activity.

I have not heard of such happenings.

So I conclude that there are no agents of Big Oil wandering around bribing scientists. So Mann is wrong. So whoever leaks these emails does so out of concience.
 
And meanwhile none of those governments nor any of the more prominent AGW spokespersons--think Al Gore--nor any of the scientists promoting AGW seem to be altering their own lifestyles and being carbon frugal in any way. So how alarmed are they really?

:lamo

Who told you this? Rush Limbaugh, right? Just admit it.
 

If what M.Mann says was true there presumably would be people wandering about approaching scientists and who ever to try to get them to do this sort of thing for money.

That would produce reports of this sort of activity.

I have not heard of such happenings.

So I conclude that there are no agents of Big Oil wandering around bribing scientists. So Mann is wrong. So whoever leaks these emails does so out of concience.

Jeeeeesus. They hack and disseminate some selected material before one international climate conference, they wait two years until many folk have forgotten the investigations proving no scientific misconduct, then they release some other selected material just before another conference (whilst still keeping plenty hidden) and you think that it's all about openness, transparency and bringing some hidden Truth to light, without any political motivation :roll:

By the sounds of it you are basing your conclusions upon how intimately familiar you as a plumber have become with the gossip, rumours and general goings-on of the hacker communities of every country in the world.

I suppose one should never underestimate the power of denial.
 
Well gee, you really should inform President Johnson's staff about that :roll: A 1965 a report by the US President's Science Advisory Committee summarized the risks implied by and limitations to contemporary understanding of CO2 emissions:
The possibility of climatic change resulting from changes in the quantity of atmospheric carbon dioxide was proposed independently by the American geologist, T. C. Chamberlain (1899) and the Swedish chemist, S. Arrhenius (1903), at the beginning of this century. Since their time, many scientists have dealt with one or another aspect of this question, but until very recently there was little quantitative information about what has actually happened. Even today, we cannot make a useful prediction concerning the magnitude or nature of the possible climatic effects. But we are able to say a good deal more than formerly. . . .


One of the most recent discussions of these effects is given by Moller (1963). He consisders the radiation balance at the earth's surface with an average initial temperature of 15°C (59°F), a relative humidity of 75 percent, and 50% cloudiness. We may compute from his data that with a 25 percent increase in atmospheric CO2, the average temperature near the earth's surface could increase between 0.6°C and 4°C (1.1°F to 7°F), depending on the behaviour of atmospheric water vapour content. . . . A doubling of CO2 in the air, which would happen if a little more than half the reserves of fossil fuels were consumed, would have about three times the effect of a twenty-five percent increase.

As Moller himself emphasized, he was unable to take into account.... In consequence, Moller's computations probably over-estimate the effects on atmospheric temperature of a CO2 increase.​
You seem to be under the strange misconception that I don't think CO2 is a greenhouse gas, which I have never said.


2015 is 2015.0 not 2015.99. I'm sure I've pointed this out to you in the past, when you tried to make a big deal out of some 'problem' you discovered thinking that 1998.10 should be October 98.

The simple fact which you seem utterly desperate to avoid acknowledging is that the rate of warming over the twenty years from 1978 is entirely consistent with
A) The warming from El Nino to El Nino (1998-2016), which Karl & co did not have access to, and
B) The warming if that's pushed back to neither start nor end with an El Nino (1995-2014 or 1996-2014) and
C) The warming if the start were merely pulled forwards to avoid the El Nino (1999-2014)


trend
If you are arguing that 2015.0 is different than 2015.99, then why did your graph select 2016.99?
Maybe it was more dramatic?
Karl et al instead chose to follow a similar base period and 15-year modern trends as the IPCC, but either way the consistency of results is the same. You can certainly cherry-pick some brief period which merely begins with a strong El Nino which has a lower 'best estimate' warming rate - as Karl et al clearly show in their Figure 1 - but that 'slowdown' is not statistically robust. Even the 1978-98 rate of warming lies well within their 90% confidence interval for the 1998-2012 trend.
Karl effectively averaged in a bunch of zeros, where no one had before.
As for as the slowdown being statistically robust, time will tell, we really do not know what the average temperature increase will be until after the effects
of the El Nino are averaged out.
 
Jeeeeesus. They hack and disseminate some selected material before one international climate conference, they wait two years until many folk have forgotten the investigations proving no scientific misconduct, then they release some other selected material just before another conference (whilst still keeping plenty hidden) and you think that it's all about openness, transparency and bringing some hidden Truth to light, without any political motivation :roll:

By the sounds of it you are basing your conclusions upon how intimately familiar you as a plumber have become with the gossip, rumours and general goings-on of the hacker communities of every country in the world.

I suppose one should never underestimate the power of denial.

He said, the people behind the release were "agents doing the dirty bidding of the fossil fuel industry

Such agents of the fossil fuel industry would have been caught trying to recruit members of the climate science community. They have not been.

Conclusion; there is nobody out there recruiting climate scientists to be agents of the fossil fuel industry.

Thus who ever leaked these emails, and I do not know who that is, does so for some other motive.
 
Such agents of the fossil fuel industry would have been caught trying to recruit members of the climate science community. They have not been.

Conclusion; there is nobody out there recruiting climate scientists to be agents of the fossil fuel industry.

Thus who ever leaked these emails, and I do not know who that is, does so for some other motive.

Russia.

They kinda have a vested interest here. And they're good at stealing email.
 
Fred Singer exposes more fake science.

Opinion
Dr. Fred Singer on ‘Global Warming Surprises’

Temp data in dispute can reverse conclusions about human influence on climate. Guest essay by Dr. Fred Singer Exploring some of the intricacies of GW [Global Warming] science can lead to surprising results that have major consequences. In a recent invited talk at the Heartland Institute’s ICCC-12 [Twelfth International Conference on Climate Change], I investigated…

A misleading graph
In the iconic picture of the global surface temperature of the 20th century [fig 1, top] one can discern two warming intervals — in the initial decades (1910-42) and in the final decades, 1977 to 2000.

Fig 1 20th century temps; top—global; bottom– US
Although these two trends look similar, they are really quite different: the initial warming is genuine, but the later warming is not. What a surprise! I wouldn’t exactly call it ‘fake,’ but it just does not exist; I try to demonstrate this difference as an artifact of the data-gathering process, by comparing with several independent data sets covering similar time intervals.
The later warming is contradicted by every available dataset, as follows:
**the surface record for the ‘lower 48’ [US] shows a much lower trend; [see fig 1, bottom]; presumably there is better control over the placement of weather-stations and their thermometers;
**the trend of global sea surface temp [SST] is much less; with 1995 temp values nearly equal to those of 1942 [acc to Gouretski and Kennedy, as published in Geophysical Research Letters in 2012];
** likewise, the trend of night-time marine air-temperatures [NMAT], measured with thermometers on ship decks, according to data from J Kennedy, Hadley Centre, UK.


** atmospheric temperature trends are uniformly much lower and close to zero (during 1979-1997), whether measured with balloon-borne radiosondes or with microwave sounding units [MSU] aboard weather satellites [see fig 8 in ref 2].
**compatible data on solar activity that show nothing unusual happening. [Interestingly, the solar data had been assembled for a quite different purpose – namely, to disprove the connection between cosmic rays and climate change [see here fig 14 of ref 2], assuming that the late-century warming was real. In the absence of such warming, as I argue here, this attempted critique of the cosmic-ray –climate connection collapses.]
**proxy data also show near-zero trends, whether from tree rings or ice cores, as noted about 20 years ago [see fig 16 in ref 1 and figs 2 and 3 of ref 2; plus those that may have been withheld by Michael Mann]. [If you look carefully at Mann’s original 1998 paper in Nature or subsequent copies, you will note that his proxy temps cease suddenly in 1979 and are replaced by temps from thermometers from CRU-EAU, the Climate Research Unit of East Anglia University. This substitution not only supplies the ‘blade’ of Mann’s ‘hockey-stick’ but enables the claim of IPCC-AR3 [2001] that the 20th century was the warmest in the past 1000 years, surpassing even the high temps of the Medieval Warm Period. In Climategate e-mails this substitution was referred to as “Mike’s Nature trick. I can’t help wondering if Mann’ s original post-1979 proxy data showed warming at all; perhaps that has some bearing on why Mann has withheld these data; it could have killed the blade and spoiled the IPCC claim.]
On the other hand, the early warming [1910-40] is supported by many proxy data – including temps derived from tree rings, ice cores, etc; unfortunately, we could not find any temperature data of the upper troposphere. However, I bet they would have shown an amplified warming trend – a hot spot. . . .



 
Such agents of the fossil fuel industry would have been caught trying to recruit members of the climate science community. They have not been.

Conclusion; there is nobody out there recruiting climate scientists to be agents of the fossil fuel industry.

Thus who ever leaked these emails, and I do not know who that is, does so for some other motive.

Firstly the emails weren't 'leaked,' they were hacked. Your own motives are showing more than a little there.

https://web.archive.org/web/2012071...ies/2012/july/ueadatabreachinvestigation.aspx

Senior Investigating Officer, Detective Superintendant Julian Gregory, said: “Despite detailed and comprehensive enquiries, supported by experts in this field, the complex nature of this investigation means that we do not have a realistic prospect of identifying the offender or offenders and launching criminal proceedings within the time constraints imposed by law.

“The international dimension of investigating the World Wide Web especially has proved extremely challenging.

“However, as a result of our enquiries, we can say that the data breach was the result of a sophisticated and carefully orchestrated attack on the CRU’s data files, carried out remotely via the internet. The offenders used methods common in unlawful internet activity to obstruct enquiries.

“There is no evidence to suggest that anyone working at or associated with the University of East Anglia was involved in the crime.”​

Secondly, Mann's comments that the people who did this "know they can't contest the fundamental science of human-caused climate change. So they have instead turned to smear, innuendo, criminal hacking of websites, and leaking out-of-context snippets of personal emails in their effort to try to confuse the public about the science and thereby forestall any action" are all entirely accurate and true.

His speculation about ties to the fossil fuel industry specifically are likewise possible, but it's also possible that there were other motivations for this massive attempt at political manipulation. However it is unlikely that any energy company would have directly commissioned the hacking, or even that there would be traceable links (even if the authorities managed to identify the perpetrators) to any intermediary organizations funded by fossil fuel companies.

You seem to be imagining someone in a Shell blazer wandering university halls with a briefcase full of cash to talk to their climate science professor, a laughably simplistic notion which perhaps helps explain why other complexities of the topic elude you. A number of the best-known contrarian scientists such as Dr. Richard Lindzen, Dr. Timothy Ball and - thankyou Jack for mentioning him - Dr. Fred Singer do not necessarily receive money directly from fossil fuel companies, but from organizations like the Heartland Institute, the Cato Institute and the Science and Environmental Policy Project which do. Though for that matter, Mann's fixation on the fossil fuel industry as the only businesses who perceive better profits from delaying action on climate change is itself rather simplistic. As with political candidates, when a company 'donates' to think tanks or political advocacy 'charities,' they necessarily do so expecting their investment to pay off somehow - they have a legal obligation to their shareholders not to simply throw money away, after all.

I'm not a big fan of the fixation on 'industry funding' myself, because if someone is making a compelling case it doesn't matter in the slightest who's paying them to do it. But if they are found to be clearly dishonest - as I've seen in the case of Singer and Ball, at least - such funding could help explain why that may be the case.
 
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Firstly the emails weren't 'leaked,' they were hacked.

Even if we concede (only for the sake of argument) that an external hack was the means to extract the data, that does not prove the impetus did not come from an internal whistleblower. Indeed, there would be no better way for an internal dissenter to cover his tracks.
 
Even if we concede (only for the sake of argument) that an external hack was the means to extract the data, that does not prove the impetus did not come from an internal whistleblower. Indeed, there would be no better way for an internal dissenter to cover his tracks.

As I showed, the investigating police confirmed that "the data breach was the result of a sophisticated and carefully orchestrated attack on the CRU’s data files, carried out remotely via the internet." That you so happily dismiss that information out of hand reveals, once again, the desperation and ulterior motives which seem to drive contrarians' thinking about this.



But pretending (purely for the sake of argument) that the hackers acted on some internal tip, since we know from the various independent inquiries that there was no fraud or scientific misconduct by the correspondents, the impetus from your imagined 'whistleblower' would merely have been "Hey, go ahead and hack this server because there's a couple of lines from emails here you could take out context for a political manipulation smear campaign. It'll create a media fuss in time for a climate conference, and there's even bound to be some dupes out there who'll swallow it long-time!"

I can see why that line of speculation appeals to you, because at least it would imply the existence of one shady character amongst the CRU and the scientists they've corresponded with.
 
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As I showed, the investigating police confirmed that "the data breach was the result of a sophisticated and carefully orchestrated attack on the CRU’s data files, carried out remotely via the internet." That you so happily dismiss that information out of hand reveals, once again, the desperation and ulterior motives which seem to drive contrarians' thinking about this.



But pretending (purely for the sake of argument) that the hackers acted on some internal tip, since we know from the various independent inquiries that there was no fraud or scientific misconduct by the correspondents, the impetus from your imagined 'whistleblower' would merely have been "Hey, go ahead and hack this server because there's a couple of lines from emails here you could take out context for a political manipulation smear campaign. It'll create a media fuss in time for a climate conference, and there's even bound to be some dupes out there who'll swallow it long-time!"

I can see why that line of speculation appeals to you, because at least it would imply the existence of one shady character amongst the CRU and the scientists they've corresponded with.

My point was that the police conclusion you quoted in no way rules out an internal impetus for the hack. Indeed, insider information about systems is often key to such externally-based intrusions. As for motive, that remains unknown, although there have been some indications that Keith Briffa, in particular, was uncomfortable with some of his colleagues' actions.
 
My point was that the police conclusion you quoted in no way rules out an internal impetus for the hack. Indeed, insider information about systems is often key to such externally-based intrusions. As for motive, that remains unknown, although there have been some indications that Keith Briffa, in particular, was uncomfortable with some of his colleagues' actions.
The way most network breeches occur, is a piece of code is placed inside to allow flow necessary.
The TV version of any geek with glasses breaking through a firewall is as big a myth as the police needing 30 seconds to trace a call.
There are plenty of social engineering tricks to get the malicious code inside, but if someone on the inside opens the door,
it is a lot easier.
 
My point was that the police conclusion you quoted in no way rules out an internal impetus for the hack. Indeed, insider information about systems is often key to such externally-based intrusions. As for motive, that remains unknown, although there have been some indications that Keith Briffa, in particular, was uncomfortable with some of his colleagues' actions.

So were the Russians.
 
I rarely listen to Rush and I honestly can't recall him ever commenting on this.

Then who told you that? It's the most ridiculous garbage pulled out of someone's ass that I've ever seen used to discredit climate science.
 
Then who told you that? It's the most ridiculous garbage pulled out of someone's ass that I've ever seen used to discredit climate science.

Please tell us then.

Can you name 5 scientists, or other carbon reducing activists who have practiced what they preach, when they were preaching it?

Some do now, but only after being called out.

Al Gore was using something like 30 times the electricity of the average household, for his home at the time.
 
Please tell us then.

Can you name 5 scientists, or other carbon reducing activists who have practiced what they preach, when they were preaching it?

Some do now, but only after being called out.

Al Gore was using something like 30 times the electricity of the average household, for his home at the time.

The vast majority of scientists I know who are involved in environmental science are very aware of their impact and carbon footprint, and do all they can to minimize it.

Since you have never actually met a scientist, you probably are unaware of that.
 
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