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Save Some Fossil Fuels for Future Generations

longview said:
Perry's questions are very real and viable questions.
As we add solar users to the grid, the base load of the grid could swing wildly.
During the Spring and Fall, we can have periods where the temperatures are moderate (No A/C or Heat) and the sun is shinning,
over a large area. There will be periods if solar users exceed 30% or so, that no base supply is needed.
The problem will be that the supply can swing wildly, as a line of cloud cover, could alter the Solar supply for an entire area quickly,
and the grid base supplies take time to start.
I think the problems are solvable, but they are very real problems that do need to be addressed.
Click to expand...

Rick Perry needs to grow up. The NREL, National Renewable Energy Laboratories, tells us that solar output is best, when Utilities most need the power. This contribution to peak load supply makes solar a great addition for Utilities.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/57582.pdf

Although detailed analysis is needed to quantify solar capacity value, examining patterns of electricity demand and solar generation can provide some indication of the ability of solar energy to contribute to meeting peak demand...

Both PV systems (and CSP systems without storage) provide significant generation during the hours of peak demand (typically 4 to 6 p.m.) and provide capacity value to the system.
 
Media_Truth said:
Rick Perry needs to grow up. The NREL, National Renewable Energy Laboratories, tells us that solar output is best, when Utilities most need the power. This contribution to peak load supply makes solar a great addition for Utilities.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/57582.pdf

Although detailed analysis is needed to quantify solar capacity value, examining patterns of electricity demand and solar generation can provide some indication of the ability of solar energy to contribute to meeting peak demand...

Both PV systems (and CSP systems without storage) provide significant generation during the hours of peak demand (typically 4 to 6 p.m.) and provide capacity value to the system.
Click to expand...

So it can manage without any form of government subsidy then. Great.
 
Media_Truth said:
Rick Perry needs to grow up. The NREL, National Renewable Energy Laboratories, tells us that solar output is best, when Utilities most need the power. This contribution to peak load supply makes solar a great addition for Utilities.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/57582.pdf

Although detailed analysis is needed to quantify solar capacity value, examining patterns of electricity demand and solar generation can provide some indication of the ability of solar energy to contribute to meeting peak demand...

Both PV systems (and CSP systems without storage) provide significant generation during the hours of peak demand (typically 4 to 6 p.m.) and provide capacity value to the system.
Click to expand...
Believe as you wish, but grid tied home solar will introduce massive swings in amount of base load needed.
Also the problem is not when the demand is peaked, but rather when demand is low,
All those solar panels do not stop generating power, just because there is no demand,
and all that energy has to go somewhere within a few seconds of generation.
Stand alone solar systems already understand this issue, and require dummy loads to turn the excess into hot air.
Introduction to Diversion Loads / Dump Loads
 
longview said:
Believe as you wish, but grid tied home solar will introduce massive swings in amount of base load needed.
Also the problem is not when the demand is peaked, but rather when demand is low,
All those solar panels do not stop generating power, just because there is no demand,
and all that energy has to go somewhere within a few seconds of generation.
Stand alone solar systems already understand this issue, and require dummy loads to turn the excess into hot air.
Introduction to Diversion Loads / Dump Loads
Click to expand...

I'm an Electrical Engineer. I assure you, I understand loads, dump loads, peak loads, etc. I've worked with this all my life. Peak load is of most concern to utilities, because that can disrupt service. If managed properly, excess power is not a problem. There are many storage methods that Utilities employ to compensate for dump loads. Hydroelectricity (a Renewable Energy, by the way) is one of the most common - just close the gate, when supply exceeds demand. Pumped water storage is employed by Utilities all over the world, including the US, and is used extensively to manage peak loads and dump loads. If Utilities don't have hydro and/or pumped water in their mix, it usually takes about 10-20 minutes to unload a boiler and a turbine generator, depending on the system. Many Utilities will have a few smaller boilers, to handle swing loads, because they can be taken off-line rather quickly. Then they use their larger boilers for the large base-load. The article is more based on POLITICS, than it is an actual problem.
 
Tim the plumber said:
So it can manage without any form of government subsidy then. Great.
Click to expand...

Actually, renewable subsidies were also present under GW Bush. It's in the best interest of America, to stay on top of the technologies. After all, in the future, everything will be powered by renewables.
 
Media_Truth said:
I'm an Electrical Engineer. I assure you, I understand loads, dump loads, peak loads, etc. I've worked with this all my life. Peak load is of most concern to utilities, because that can disrupt service. If managed properly, excess power is not a problem. There are many storage methods that Utilities employ to compensate for dump loads. Hydroelectricity (a Renewable Energy, by the way) is one of the most common - just close the gate, when supply exceeds demand. Pumped water storage is employed by Utilities all over the world, including the US, and is used extensively to manage peak loads and dump loads. If Utilities don't have hydro and/or pumped water in their mix, it usually takes about 10-20 minutes to unload a boiler and a turbine generator, depending on the system. Many Utilities will have a few smaller boilers, to handle swing loads, because they can be taken off-line rather quickly. Then they use their larger boilers for the large base-load. The article is more based on POLITICS, than it is an actual problem.
Click to expand...
I think the problem will come in as the amount of solar grows, and the amount of base load declines.
Many places do not have the topology for pumped storage.
I am thinking of something like a spring front blows through an area, and no one needs heat or AC, but
within a short time span 100% of the panels in a local geography are producing at full capacity.
 
Media_Truth said:
Actually, renewable subsidies were also present under GW Bush. It's in the best interest of America, to stay on top of the technologies. After all, in the future, everything will be powered by renewables.
Click to expand...

Those renewables need some form of long term storage to really become viable.
I am talking at least 6 months (seasonal) storage.
 
Media_Truth said:
We hear so much about climate change. To me there is a very obvious other reason we should all do whatever we can to reduce our oil and gas consumption. We should save some of this precious resource for our future generations. Oil and Natural Gas are non-renewable resources. They will run out. And yet we continue to burn it up at unprecedented rates.

We use oil and natural gas for the manufacture of intricate plastic parts, used in the medical and other fields. Oil is the the only product that can be used for jet fuel. Peak Oil studies show what will happen to the economy and our livelihood, as oil starts becoming a rarity, and it isn't pretty.

And yet we burn oil, as if there is literally, no tomorrow. Conservation seems to be a word reserved for tree-huggers. But if one really cares about our children, grandchildren, and so forth; he/she would take steps to reduce consumption.
Click to expand...

Less than a 150 years ago, humans were using whale oil and horses and wind power for travel. Wax and whale oil for light, wood for heat. Humans got along fairly well. Then came fossil fuel, which BTW may not be finite. I expect that the next 150 years will see equally large changes in our energy needs and sources.
 
Being somewhat of a fossil myself, I'm in favor of saving fossils. Fuel too. I mean if you save a fossil, you're saving potential fuel, right? I might not live (?) up to your fuel expectations, but you won't know unless you try.
 
longview said:
I think the problem will come in as the amount of solar grows, and the amount of base load declines.
Many places do not have the topology for pumped storage.
I am thinking of something like a spring front blows through an area, and no one needs heat or AC, but
within a short time span 100% of the panels in a local geography are producing at full capacity.
Click to expand...

Yes, it could be more of a problem then. But not as much as you're being led to believe. If we get to a 30-40% renewable mix, we will need to start thinking seriously about additional storage methods. Note that wind is already 7% of the US power mix, and it is being managed quite well. I worked in the Utilities Department of major plant, for a Fortune 500 company, and I'm very familiar with the loading and unloading of boilers. It definitely needs to be managed, and with current software solutions; and up-to-date instrumentation; ambient temperature, weather, and subsequent load forecasting; it is not a huge problem.
 
Media_Truth said:
Yes, it could be more of a problem then. But not as much as you're being led to believe. If we get to a 30-40% renewable mix, we will need to start thinking seriously about additional storage methods. Note that wind is already 7% of the US power mix, and it is being managed quite well. I worked in the Utilities Department of major plant, for a Fortune 500 company, and I'm very familiar with the loading and unloading of boilers. It definitely needs to be managed, and with current software solutions; and up-to-date instrumentation; ambient temperature, weather, and subsequent load forecasting; it is not a huge problem.
Click to expand...
I am thinking of when the mix gets higher, it will not be the peak loads they worry about, but the low periods, when all those panels
keep producing. I do think Perry is correct that we need to study the problem, to assure grid stability in the future.
 
longview said:
Those renewables will need some form of long term storage, when they are the predominant source of grid-power, to really become viable. I am talking at least 6 months (seasonal) storage.
Click to expand...

I added my comments in BOLD to try to put your statement in perspective.
 
Media_Truth said:
I added my comments in BOLD to try to put your statement in perspective.
Click to expand...
I don't actually agree! I think it would help renewables be viable now, if they had long term energy storage.
I favor hydrocarbon storage, because the infrastructure already exists, but there are other alternatives.
 
Media_Truth said:
Actually, renewable subsidies were also present under GW Bush. It's in the best interest of America, to stay on top of the technologies. After all, in the future, everything will be powered by renewables.
Click to expand...

Hydro power has been here for a very long time. 1600 around here.
 
longview said:
I don't actually agree! I think it would help renewables be viable now, if they had long term energy storage.
I favor hydrocarbon storage, because the infrastructure already exists, but there are other alternatives.
Click to expand...

Pumped water storage has an 85% efficiency, and is a technology of familiarity. As mentioned though, at the current level, this is not necessary with renewables. However, I'm in full support of your statement, and the further expansion of renewables.
 
Media_Truth said:
Pumped water storage has an 85% efficiency, and is a technology of familiarity. As mentioned though, at the current level, this is not necessary with renewables. However, I'm in full support of your statement, and the further expansion of renewables.
Click to expand...
Pumped water is very good where the geography allows it. I think the next step solution will need to be broadly available
to all geography's to be successful.
 
longview said:
Pumped water is very good where the geography allows it. I think the next step solution will need to be broadly available
to all geography's to be successful.
Click to expand...

With today's economy, I agree. I believe that Palm Springs, CA was going to construct a man-made water storage area, and use it for a pumped-water station, but cancelled the endeavor, because of the expense. Ameren reopened the Taum Sauk, MO pumped water facility in 2010. It wasn't built to store renewable power (1963), but instead, to provide peak load production. In the picture, it certainly looks like a completely man-made reservoir, but still, the area provided an elevation differential.

https://www.ameren.com/missouri/environment/hydroelectric/taum-sauk-information

Actually, it's quite a history lesson, if you're interested:

http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/dams/taum-sauk/watkins-taum-sauk-gsa_branson-compressed.pdf
 
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