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When did Climate Change Acceptance/Denial become a partisan issue?

Winston

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When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?
 
When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?

Probably when the left demanded the science was settled, when doing so is a violation of the scientific method, and when the left's solution was to enrich the promoters regardless of this fact. Close behind that would be the objective to insult and attack anyone who doesn't vow allegiance to the proscribed objective.

It's one thing to promote efficiency and explore new energy solutions. It's another to demand the human race be subjected to the will of a select group of elites who have claimed themselves supreme rulers over the actions and lifestyles of all humans living on the planet.
 
When did Climate Change Acceptance/Denial become a partisan issue?
Ever since the governments formed agencies like the IPCC, pushing one side of the science and ignoring the other.
 
When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?

About 20 - 30 years ago it started to gather momentum when certain groups of people saw political and financial gain could be made.
 
Probably when the left demanded the science was settled, when doing so is a violation of the scientific method, ...

I'm not a denier, but that's the part that get's me asking questions; "settled science?" The monetary enrichment is just part of the DC system utilized by both parties.
 
When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?



In the 1970s scientists raised the alarm that a new Ice Age was nearly upon us. Some said glaciers would roll over NYC by 2000. I was a teenager at the time and very much into science, and found these predictions very alarming.

A decade or so later it was the ozone layer. There's a hole in the Ozone over Antarctica and when all the Ozone is gone, we're all gonna die or move underground, they said. By the year 2000 most of our Ozone will be gone and we'll be baked in ultraviolet rays. I was alarmed.

Then came the 90s and the new craze was man-made Global Warming. I was in my 30s at this point and had become rather skeptical. I took it with a grain of salt and studied both the pro and con viewpoints and theories.

(2000 came and went with no glaciers or ozone destruction, btw... )


My current viewpoint....


Is there climate change? Yes there is. We know from history, archeology and ice cores that the climate has always changed, sometimes drastically, and did so long before humans.

Is current climate change primarily human-driven? Debatable. I've read a number of scholarly works on both sides of this issue, and while I concede some possibility it is so, I also see plenty of room for legitimate skepticism.

Does current climate change constitute an existential threat to humanity? I seriously doubt this. Science shows there have been periods in pre-history when the Earth was considerably warmer with much higher atmospheric carbon than at present, and that far from being times of mass die-off these were periods when life flourished. Furthermore the planetary biosphere has shown considerable self-regulating ability as regards to maintaining life-supporting conditions.


If #1-3 are all true, can humanity do anything to stop it? In theory, there might be a slim chance... but in practice, no. Most anti-AGW schemes involve massive restructuring of our society and civilization in ways likely to provoke economic disaster, and the political will does not exist at this time to engage in such actions. In particular, developing 3rd world nations are unwilling or unable to comply with the required actions, and first-world governments are unwilling to risk the massive loss of revenue and political fallout. In short if #1-3 are all true we're forked... but I decline to worry about it as I find #3 improbable and #2 open to question.
 
I'm not a denier, but that's the part that get's me asking questions; "settled science?" The monetary enrichment is just part of the DC system utilized by both parties.

The "settled science" aspect should set every objective thinker's alarm bells off.

On the monetary point, I see the enrichment being far beyond the DC system, and far more slanted than you suggest.

Part of the climate change agenda involves the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind. I don't see the right in the crosshairs of that enrichment.

Further, I see a massive conflict of interest on the part of the people who are receiving the billions in research dollars to support and "confirm" the agenda.
 
When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?

- Probably 20 or more years ago.
- My take has been relativelyconstant with a slight shift in probabilities. My opinion of proper policies have adjusted slightly as technology has improved has similarly changed little.
 
I'm not a denier, but that's the part that get's me asking questions; "settled science?" The monetary enrichment is just part of the DC system utilized by both parties.



It's "settled science" if "settled science" means "we have successfully intimidated almost all skeptics into silence through public humiliation, threats against their position and funding, and threats to exclude them from the Science Club."


Skeptics aren't so much rebutted as they are attacked and destroyed.
 
The "settled science" aspect should set every objective thinker's alarm bells off.

On the monetary point, I see the enrichment being far beyond the DC system, and far more slanted than you suggest.

Part of the climate change agenda involves the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind. I don't see the right in the crosshairs of that enrichment.

Further, I see a massive conflict of interest on the part of the people who are receiving the billions in research dollars to support and "confirm" the agenda.

Enrichment on the left is acceptable and you don't hear about the left's bad actions because they "share" by redistributing wealth to those that vote for them:

64453786.jpg


We see it here all the time, when some on the left ask why poor people would aver vote against their own interest by voting Republican. Which means if they vote Democrat they will get more money,
 
It's "settled science" if "settled science" means "we have successfully intimidated almost all skeptics into silence through public humiliation, threats against their position and funding, and threats to exclude them from the Science Club."


Skeptics aren't so much rebutted as they are attacked and destroyed.

A cursory reading of many of the threads here will provide evidence that shutting down the conversation is the primary tactic of the ideological left. They shut down the Climate Change conversation with terms like "science denier." They do the same with other topics as well. Want to discuss "entitlement" reform? You're a racist. Want to discuss illegal immigration? You're a xenophobe. Want to discuss limiting immigration from countries that are either declared enemies of the US or don't have a functioning government to assist in vetting people or the country is a freaking war zone? You're an Islamaphobe. Want to discuss limiting federal power and following the Constitution (this is the one that really get's my BS spin meter pinging)? You're a fascist. Want to talk about anything that's not popular with Progressives? You're a purveyor of hate speech. And, if you don't fall neatly into one of those and the numerous other labels used to stop the discussion, but are still being apposed by the progressive left? You're a Nazi, or Hitler reincarnated.

And so on...
 
I agree with many of the sentiments being expressed here but where are all the alarmists views ?

There hasn't been a 97% or a polar bear or melting ice caps or a runaway greenhouse effect to be seen anywhere so far :wink:
 
When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?

First, since the military plans for it, we know that the only BS is that which spews from the mouths of the partisan deniers. Like most things in life, if you want to know the real skinny, observe what the adults in the room do.

How it became political? Al Gore. Never before has there been a worse spokesman for an otherwise just cause.
 
Here are some things I believe based solely on the science:

-Human activities have, and will continue to, exacerbate climate change.
-While there may be environmental factors that contribute to autism, vaccines have been ruled out as a cause.
-GMOs in general pose little to no risk to the environment. The demonstrated positives certainly outweigh any perceived negatives.
-Unless you have celiac disease there is no demonstrable advantage to avoiding gluten.
-the overwhelming majority of people who take a daily multi-vitamin are wasting their money.

A large percentage of people on both sides of the aisle can likely find things they disagree with me there. But my position on all those subjects is based on the science and could change as more data comes in. None of those things are ideologies for me.
 
Here are some things I believe based solely on the science:

-Human activities have, and will continue to, exacerbate climate change.
-While there may be environmental factors that contribute to autism, vaccines have been ruled out as a cause.
-GMOs in general pose little to no risk to the environment. The demonstrated positives certainly outweigh any perceived negatives.
-Unless you have celiac disease there is no demonstrable advantage to avoiding gluten.
-the overwhelming majority of people who take a daily multi-vitamin are wasting their money.

A large percentage of people on both sides of the aisle can likely find things they disagree with me there. But my position on all those subjects is based on the science and could change as more data comes in. None of those things are ideologies for me.
The only issue I would have with your list is the use of exacerbate climate change, as it implies a negative.
Actual climate change could go ether way, and warming seems to have a lot of positives.
 
The only issue I would have with your list is the use of exacerbate climate change, as it implies a negative.
Actual climate change could go ether way, and warming seems to have a lot of positives.

Perhaps I should have used "magnify" or "accelerate".

There are certainly places that would benefit from climate change. And there are places that will suffer. For those of us with the means the fix may be to simply move. Canada will probably become more popular. :) But not everyone has the means, particularly those living in the poorer island nations.
 
My theory is that so many environmental non-profits seem to be fronts for progressive politics or Democratic party politics. It soured the enthusiasm of right wingers and nudged them into more and more hostility toward environmental policies. Remember that Republicans were often at the forefront of good environmental policies. It is bizarre when the Natural Resources Defense League had an article condemning the environmental policies of Sarah Palin about a month after the Deepwater Horizon disaster (worst environmental disaster in US history) when Palin was a private citizen and Obama's administration has their hands all over authorizing Deepwater. There are many other cases like this, in which groups seem more concerned about party politics than actual improvements in their supposed area of interest. They should think win-win, and coming up with reasons for Republicans to support their ideas. And that is hard to do if the agency leaders believe that Republicans are deplorable sub human types incapable of logic or support.

And some of the policies supported by environmental groups seems suspiciously like big govt special interest policies and not perhaps better solutions.

P.S. NRDC's website headline today is "Stop the Trump Sellout". No matter how true that may be it is not the way to get support and just builds the wall higher.
 
My feelings on this are similar to the way I feel about evolutionary biology. Sure, it makes sense, there's evidence that shows it's true. But, there is a vested interest out there that will attack it, to protect itself. Because if true, it disproves the aggressor. In evolutionary biology it's the Christian right. In climate change, it's the fossil fuel special interests.

It goes deeper than that..

It's an assault on the beloved free market. If climate change is true, the only way to fix the problem is to intervene in the free market. Knocking the free market off it's purity pedestal, in front of a dyed in the wool conservative, is like driving over the American flag in a Japanese-made compact car.
 
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When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?

A partisan issue? Even by the middle of the year 2016 was already clearly shaping up to be the third consecutive hottest year on record (with 2010 now bumped down to fourth place). If ever climate change was going to be a major presidential campaign issue, that would be it, you'd think. Instead, after receiving the Democrat nomination Clinton went from mentioning climate change in roughly half her speeches to barely one fifth, and in all three presidential debates there was not a single question on the topic despite being the fourth-most popular question submitted to the Open Debate Coalition.

When he was heading up the US team's negotiations for the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, Al Gore helped to effectively neuter it to the extent that global carbon emissions are not only still increasing two decades later, but still on an accelerating trajectory.

Given half a chance, most politicians and political parties would want to avoid mentioning climate change altogether. Even for politicians with voter bases generally favourable towards "action" on climate change, it's difficult to come to terms with the complexity and nuances of the issue, and even more uncomfortable to contemplate introducing regulation and/or taxation to deal with an issue which won't be noticeably worse at the end of a four- or eight-year term than at the beginning. That's why we've ended up with nonsense like targets and subsidies for biofuel crops despite environmental groups' objections, so gutless politicians could pretend to be 'doing something' whilst achieving nothing but handing out bucketloads of cash to powerful lobby groups. I would assume that it's similarly uncomfortable for politicians with more contrarian voter bases to try to insist that we just shouldn't worry about the environment or consequences for future generations or poorer tropical and sub-tropical countries, or to try to say with a straight face that the world's scientists don't even know what they're talking about. (Though I must admit that there's more than a little evidence to the contrary, that some on the right take a certain pride in those attitudes as if there were some kind of machismo in caring only for your own species, your own country, your own generation and your own limited understanding of reality.)

Climate change can become an ideological issue, because some viewpoints like libertarianism and arbitrarily-small-government conservatism tend to be hostile towards regulation or taxation as a matter of principle. But it becomes a political partisan issue only inasmuch as views such as those dominate the voter base of one party or another; it's highly unlikely that there is anywhere near as much outspoken contempt for climate science amongst the major right-wing parties of Europe as in America's Republican party, for example. On an issue like this, I suspect that political parties will usually be the reflection of their voters' (and sponsors') sentiment, rather than the source or shapers of it.

It's probably a trivial and impractical distinction in most regards... except that it shows the stupidity of conspiracy theories suggesting that governments - political parties from the left- and right-wings in countries all around the world, across several decades - were the ones who somehow created the scientific consensus.
 
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Ever since the governments formed agencies like the IPCC, pushing one side of the science and ignoring the other.

You mean governments like the United States under that damn lefty President George H. W. Bush?

Also:
The U.S. Global Change Research Program (USGCRP) was established by Presidential Initiative in 1989 and mandated by Congress in the Global Change Research Act (GCRA) of 1990 to “assist the Nation and the world to understand, assess, predict, and respond to human-induced and natural processes of global change.”​
 
A cursory reading of many of the threads here will provide evidence that shutting down the conversation is the primary tactic of the ideological left. They shut down the Climate Change conversation with terms like "science denier." They do the same with other topics as well. Want to discuss "entitlement" reform? You're a racist. Want to discuss illegal immigration? You're a xenophobe. Want to discuss limiting immigration from countries that are either declared enemies of the US or don't have a functioning government to assist in vetting people or the country is a freaking war zone? You're an Islamaphobe. Want to discuss limiting federal power and following the Constitution (this is the one that really get's my BS spin meter pinging)? You're a fascist. Want to talk about anything that's not popular with Progressives? You're a purveyor of hate speech. And, if you don't fall neatly into one of those and the numerous other labels used to stop the discussion, but are still being apposed by the progressive left? You're a Nazi, or Hitler reincarnated.

And so on...

Greetings, Beaudreaux. :2wave:

Very well stated! :thumbs: Whoever decided that the ideological left should be the final authority on matters of importance? If their way of doing things is really the best way, shouldn't history be able to list at least one civilization that didn't fail by adopting their way of thinking - that bigger and more intrusive government is good; that robbing Peter to pay Paul is ethical; that more government debt than GDP is not important; and that central planning and control of every part of our lives is necessary because they are both more brilliant and honest than anyone else.

If that is true, the EU will not fall apart soon, as more and more experts are predicting these days! Time will tell.... :shrug:
 
When did right wingers have to deny Climate change to be let in the club? And when did left wingers have to accept it to be let in the club? Playing partisan politics is all fun and games until the first big migrations hit. Or on the flip side, playing partisan politics is all fun and games until Exxon CEO's have to sell their 2nd yacht's..

When do you remember taking a stance on climate change? Do you think your stance on climate change has anything to do with the campain contributions, that lead to the death of political objectivity, coupled with the right wing, pseudo-scientific, think tanks funded by billionaires, who stand to gain from climate denial?

McCain and Romney (circa 2008) accepted it. It was generally accepted on both sides of the isle until about the time of the Koch boy's tea party. Coincidence? Nah.
 
Perhaps I should have used "magnify" or "accelerate".

There are certainly places that would benefit from climate change. And there are places that will suffer. For those of us with the means the fix may be to simply move. Canada will probably become more popular. :) But not everyone has the means, particularly those living in the poorer island nations.
Most, (99%) would not need to move, the nature of the warming (mostly warmer winter evenings) is such that most people will not notice.
As to the poorer island nations, the rate of the sea level rise has slowed or stopped.
PSMSL Catalogue Viewer
Most often mentioned are the Marshall islands and Kiribati.
http://www.psmsl.org/data/obtaining/rlr.monthly.data/1838.rlrdata
http://www.psmsl.org/data/obtaining/rlr.annual.data/1804.rlrdata
 
A partisan issue? Even by the middle of the year 2016 was already clearly shaping up to be the third consecutive hottest year on record (with 2010 now bumped down to fourth place). If ever climate change was going to be a major presidential campaign issue, that would be it, you'd think. Instead, after receiving the Democrat nomination Clinton went from mentioning climate change in roughly half her speeches to barely one fifth, and in all three presidential debates there was not a single question on the topic despite being the fourth-most popular question submitted to the Open Debate Coalition.

When he was heading up the US team's negotiations for the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, Al Gore helped to effectively neuter it to the extent that global carbon emissions are not only still increasing two decades later, but still on an accelerating trajectory.

Given half a chance, most politicians and political parties would want to avoid mentioning climate change altogether. Even for politicians with voter bases generally favourable towards "action" on climate change, it's difficult to come to terms with the complexity and nuances of the issue, and even more uncomfortable to contemplate introducing regulation and/or taxation to deal with an issue which won't be noticeably worse at the end of a four- or eight-year term than at the beginning. That's why we've ended up with nonsense like targets and subsidies for biofuel crops despite environmental groups' objections, so gutless politicians could pretend to be 'doing something' whilst achieving nothing but handing out bucketloads of cash to powerful lobby groups. I would assume that it's similarly uncomfortable for politicians with more contrarian voter bases to try to insist that we just shouldn't worry about the environment or consequences for future generations or poorer tropical and sub-tropical countries, or to try to say with a straight face that the world's scientists don't even know what they're talking about. (Though I must admit that there's more than a little evidence to the contrary, that some on the right take a certain pride in those attitudes as if there were some kind of machismo in caring only for your own species, your own country, your own generation and your own limited understanding of reality.)

Climate change can become an ideological issue, because some viewpoints like libertarianism and arbitrarily-small-government conservatism tend to be hostile towards regulation or taxation as a matter of principle. But it becomes a political partisan issue only inasmuch as views such as those dominate the voter base of one party or another; it's highly unlikely that there is anywhere near as much outspoken contempt for climate science amongst the major right-wing parties of Europe as in America's Republican party, for example. On an issue like this, I suspect that political parties will usually be the reflection of their voters' (and sponsors') sentiment, rather than the source or shapers of it.
om the left- and right-wings in countries all around the world, across several decades - were the ones who somehow created the scientific consensus.

You raise an interesting viewpoint, and one that I share myself. The Democrats are bought by big oil too. Why couldn’t the Democrats put a fracking ban in their platform? A fracking ban would’ve generated a ton of enthusiasm, and perhaps swung the election for the Democrats. The 77,000 votes separating Clinton from Trump in PA, MI, and WI juxtaposed with the third party surge in those 3 states, suggest it would have. Why couldn't they run a climate change campaign, that would get people to the polls?

Democrats aren’t stupid. They know that including a fracking ban would have generated a ton of enthusiasm, with minimal loss of center voters. So, what stopped them from including the fracking ban? HRC was financed by frackers, and we have evidence of her holding fundraisers and meeting with oil and gas lobbyists, combined with her selecting Ken Salazar to head up her transition team. There was no way to vote against big oil interests last election.

I agree with your analysis, that climate change is a unique topic, in that it doesn’t pay out political dividends, to that politician’s career. The duration of the effects won't be seen by that politician but by future generations. It’s a matter of, the old adage of.. doing the right thing, even when no one is looking. It’s a bit like taking an aggressive stance on the big bang theory. If believing in the big bang theory, was a key to survival of the species.
 
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Most, (99%) would not need to move, the nature of the warming (mostly warmer winter evenings)

Daytime high temperatures have been increasing as fast if not faster than night-time low temperatures for the past thirty years or more, as you have been shown (including from your own sources) on more than one occasion. But don't let that stand in the way of your ongoing promotion of comfortable falsehood.
 
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