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Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airports?

Peter King

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According to this scientist/expert the future could be circular airports.

It has several greener and environmentally pleasant features as well as safety features.

1. just one runway needed rather than several runways meaning less concrete, less asphalt and more greenery

2. now planes have to be directed to routes/corridors where planes must fly through to line up with the runway, with this system you do not have to do that to such an extent. Which would mean less fuel use.

3. now people who live in the corridor have a lot of noise issues and if you can share that throughout an area more people will have lower level noise issues rather than a smaller group having enormous noise issues.

4. The experts also say that 3 planes can land or depart at the same time with this system without issues with flight safety which also would improve on the fuel consumption because now only one can land per landing strip which means planes have to remain in the air longer before they can land, if 2 or 3 can land at the same times this would again safe fuel.

And the safety issue has to do with the dangerous landings with severe winds, this system allows planes to land in a spot where there is no wind issues from the sides.


What do you think? Is circular the future in airports?
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

According to this scientist/expert the future could be circular airports.

It has several greener and environmentally pleasant features as well as safety features.

1. just one runway needed rather than several runways meaning less concrete, less asphalt and more greenery

2. now planes have to be directed to routes/corridors where planes must fly through to line up with the runway, with this system you do not have to do that to such an extent. Which would mean less fuel use.

3. now people who live in the corridor have a lot of noise issues and if you can share that throughout an area more people will have lower level noise issues rather than a smaller group having enormous noise issues.

4. The experts also say that 3 planes can land or depart at the same time with this system without issues with flight safety which also would improve on the fuel consumption because now only one can land per landing strip which means planes have to remain in the air longer before they can land, if 2 or 3 can land at the same times this would again safe fuel.

And the safety issue has to do with the dangerous landings with severe winds, this system allows planes to land in a spot where there is no wind issues from the sides.


What do you think? Is circular the future in airports?
I am thinking this message was brought to you by people who do not understand that planes take off and land
into the wind as much as possible.
Also to get a long straight line out of a circular runway, would require a much larger circle.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

I am thinking this message was brought to you by people who do not understand that planes take off and land
into the wind as much as possible.
Also to get a long straight line out of a circular runway, would require a much larger circle.

Yes, why would someone who works at the Netherlands Aerospace Center together with scientists from Germany’s national research centre for aeronautics and space, the Onera (Office National d’Études et Recherches Aérospatiales) is the French national aerospace research center, the official Research Establishment for aerospace matters in Spain and the Polish Institute of aviation not know how planes take off and land.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

Yes, why would someone who works at the Netherlands Aerospace Center together with scientists from Germany’s national research centre for aeronautics and space, the Onera (Office National d’Études et Recherches Aérospatiales) is the French national aerospace research center, the official Research Establishment for aerospace matters in Spain and the Polish Institute of aviation not know how planes take off and land.
I am thinking that the artist conception, is not to scale.
Consider that a large plane like a 747 needs a 1800 meter straight line to land on in wet conditions,
so your circle would need to be at least 5 km across.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

This "expert" has never flown a plane in his life, I expect.

-Smoothing out traffic flow patterns doesn't work because planes still have to get lined up in the proper direction with the wind
-You can't land three planes at once because they wouldn't all be facing into the wind properly
-Go-around procedures conflict with arriving traffic from other radials. If a plane has to abort a landing, it's flying back up towards the arrival pattern of another plane on the circle.
-Very large aircraft would have to immediately begin turning on touchdown, at high speeds, while they have minimal traction. This would result in significant instability which is very hazardous at that speed
-Rate of turn would only match the runway radius at one exact speed/bank angle combination, aircraft would therefore often be drifting laterally in relationship to the runway
-Contaminated runways would become suicidal
-You can't spread the noise issue out because planes need to land into the wind
-Multiple parallel runways already solves the simultaneous landing issue in a safer fashion
-Emergencies during the takeoff run, particularly engine failure, become much more hazardous due to the turn. Aircraft aborting a takeoff have to follow a curved path in what is already the most time-critical and life-critical operation in a pilot's career. (say the term "v1 cut" to any jet pilot and see the look on their face)
-The actual heading on liftoff now becomes difficult to accurately predict, as takeoff lengths vary based on numerous factors. This ruins traffic flow. "North-ish" isn't good enough for departure procedures at congested airports
-One gigantic circular runway actually requires more pavement, not less. This is like 5th grade geometry stuff.

edit: - Heck, crosswind operations actually get harder, not easier. Following a curved path, your angle to the wind will be shifting through the flare process. Sure, you're angling in to be mostly pointed into the wind, but the fact that the relative wind angle is changing is what adds the challenge.


This concept is less safe and less efficient and more expensive. On a day of very calm winds, some of the problems can theoretically go away but this still becomes a nightmarish problem for air traffic control to solve. Part of the reason arrival paths follow neat lines is because it's incredibly hard to manage hundreds of aircraft arriving from random directions.

edit2:

-Terminal structures can only reasonably be built inside of the ring, necessitating tunneling under runways for entry roads.
-Runway maintenance becomes more complicated with the banked surface and difficulty in defining closed areas vs active ones
-Emergency landing operations involving brake failure or other control issues render the airport entirely unusable - emergency stopways found at the end of straight runways are not usable on a circular runway
 
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Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

Looks cool. But a circular runway? I have to think planes would have to be redisgned. And all pilots would have to require extensive additional training. I mean, landing on a slant isn't something pilots were trained to do or planes designed to do. And if there is no wind they will require more speed. And wouldn't they go from no wind to having wind suddenly immediately after takeoff due to rising above the slanted runway that was blocking the wind initially. That is adding wind turbulence or even shear at one of the most dangerous points in the flight. And then landing would go from wind to no wind suddenly, adding another element of risk to the other most dangerous point in the flight.

I'm not a pilot or an engineer so I may be completely wrong.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

Pavement math, for fun:

Let's take a 10,000x150 foot runway found at a typical major airport. That's 1.5 million square feet of pavement.

Assuming you want the same landing distance available, the size of the circle runway depends on how many degrees of the circle you want that 10,000 foot landing distance to occupy.

Even if you want the plane to use 90 degrees of the runway during its landing operation, you're still needing 4 of these 10,000 foot segments to complete a circle, or 6 million square feet. However, a 90 degree arc ruins the crosswind benefit. Realistically, you need the runway much larger.

So, at absolute best this thing has as much pavement as four runways, but under ideal conditions is only landing 3 at a time. (actual ratio would probably be 6-3, or double the pavement required) And this only works when the wind is calm. Strong winds, you've got four to six times the pavement and you're only landing one at a time. (I'm making an assumption you'd never, ever operate with aircraft landing opposite direction on the circle. That would get you two planes pointed into the wind, but in a manner I'm not remotely comfortable with!)

This thing is almost as bad as solar roadways or Elon Musk's Death Tube.
 
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Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

Looks cool. But a circular runway? I have to think planes would have to be redisgned. And all pilots would have to require extensive additional training. I mean, landing on a slant isn't something pilots were trained to do or planes designed to do. And if there is no wind they will require more speed. And wouldn't they go from no wind to having wind suddenly immediately after takeoff due to rising above the slanted runway that was blocking the wind initially. That is adding wind turbulence or even shear at one of the most dangerous points in the flight. And then landing would go from wind to no wind suddenly, adding another element of risk to the other most dangerous point in the flight.

I'm not a pilot or an engineer so I may be completely wrong.

You're wrong, but not completely.

The embankment would slow the wind down possibly, but not stop it. So you'll still have wind. But you're right that this could add a little turbulence at liftoff. I wouldn't expect this to be a major problem.

The training/aircraft design issue is definitely a real problem.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

Hmmm. Is there a European equivalent to The Onion? I'm imagining airline pilots in "controlled drift" into the turn like NASCAR drivers.:shock:
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo



According to this scientist/expert the future could be circular airports.

It has several greener and environmentally pleasant features as well as safety features.

1. just one runway needed rather than several runways meaning less concrete, less asphalt and more greenery

2. now planes have to be directed to routes/corridors where planes must fly through to line up with the runway, with this system you do not have to do that to such an extent. Which would mean less fuel use.

3. now people who live in the corridor have a lot of noise issues and if you can share that throughout an area more people will have lower level noise issues rather than a smaller group having enormous noise issues.

4. The experts also say that 3 planes can land or depart at the same time with this system without issues with flight safety which also would improve on the fuel consumption because now only one can land per landing strip which means planes have to remain in the air longer before they can land, if 2 or 3 can land at the same times this would again safe fuel.

And the safety issue has to do with the dangerous landings with severe winds, this system allows planes to land in a spot where there is no wind issues from the sides.


What do you think? Is circular the future in airports?


LOL...

Serious?

LOL...
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

This "expert" has never flown a plane in his life, I expect.

-Smoothing out traffic flow patterns doesn't work because planes still have to get lined up in the proper direction with the wind
-You can't land three planes at once because they wouldn't all be facing into the wind properly
-Go-around procedures conflict with arriving traffic from other radials. If a plane has to abort a landing, it's flying back up towards the arrival pattern of another plane on the circle.
-Very large aircraft would have to immediately begin turning on touchdown, at high speeds, while they have minimal traction. This would result in significant instability which is very hazardous at that speed
-Rate of turn would only match the runway radius at one exact speed/bank angle combination, aircraft would therefore often be drifting laterally in relationship to the runway
-Contaminated runways would become suicidal
-You can't spread the noise issue out because planes need to land into the wind
-Multiple parallel runways already solves the simultaneous landing issue in a safer fashion
-Emergencies during the takeoff run, particularly engine failure, become much more hazardous due to the turn. Aircraft aborting a takeoff have to follow a curved path in what is already the most time-critical and life-critical operation in a pilot's career. (say the term "v1 cut" to any jet pilot and see the look on their face)
-The actual heading on liftoff now becomes difficult to accurately predict, as takeoff lengths vary based on numerous factors. This ruins traffic flow. "North-ish" isn't good enough for departure procedures at congested airports
-One gigantic circular runway actually requires more pavement, not less. This is like 5th grade geometry stuff.

edit: - Heck, crosswind operations actually get harder, not easier. Following a curved path, your angle to the wind will be shifting through the flare process. Sure, you're angling in to be mostly pointed into the wind, but the fact that the relative wind angle is changing is what adds the challenge.


This concept is less safe and less efficient and more expensive. On a day of very calm winds, some of the problems can theoretically go away but this still becomes a nightmarish problem for air traffic control to solve. Part of the reason arrival paths follow neat lines is because it's incredibly hard to manage hundreds of aircraft arriving from random directions.

edit2:

-Terminal structures can only reasonably be built inside of the ring, necessitating tunneling under runways for entry roads.
-Runway maintenance becomes more complicated with the banked surface and difficulty in defining closed areas vs active ones
-Emergency landing operations involving brake failure or other control issues render the airport entirely unusable - emergency stopways found at the end of straight runways are not usable on a circular runway

But, apart from those minor points, a good idea? :2razz:

As it happens, I started training for a PPL not so long ago, and I still struggle to put the plane down on a nice straight, flat runway without breaking it. I certainly wouldn't fancy my chances with a curved, banked runway!
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

LOL...

Serious?

LOL...

Yup, they even got an EU grant for the study so I think it will be very serious indeed.

And maybe this will not replace the airports where the big 500 seat planes depart and land from, but there are loads of smaller airports in which such a design might well work.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

Yup, they even got an EU grant for the study so I think it will be very serious indeed.

And maybe this will not replace the airports where the big 500 seat planes depart and land from, but there are loads of smaller airports in which such a design might well work.

Solar Freaking Roadways got grants too, and that's an outstandingly stupid concept.

I already detailed some problems. The short of it: the concept is objectively less safe than straight runways and that's a dealbreaker all on its own.

But, apart from those minor points, a good idea? :2razz:

As it happens, I started training for a PPL not so long ago, and I still struggle to put the plane down on a nice straight, flat runway without breaking it. I certainly wouldn't fancy my chances with a curved, banked runway!

I've been flying planes for eighteen years and I don't want to do it either.
 
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Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

I still think it's an Onion​ style parody.
 
Re: Better for the environment and the people? Is the future ready for circular airpo

I still think it's an Onion​ style parody.

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

When I read about all the cross-winds, followed by no-winds, etc, at those airports, I decided I'd just be better off landing in some farmer's field - all you need to concern yourself with there is that you don't run into a cow and damage a rented plane, not to mention apologizing to an unhappy frowning cow who probably wonders why we're both in that particular field at the same time! :lamo
 
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