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The End of the California Drought?

longview said:
There was a good article in Scientific American about using the surplus water to saturate crops,
some crops tolerate the excess well, and much of the water gets into the water table.
I have said for a while, that the real problems humans face is energy and fresh water.
If we can figure out effective energy storage, we can solve both problems.
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Yes, some crops tolerate water well enough that fields can be flooded for a time at least. The water percolates down to the aquifer, and partially replaces the water that has been pumped out.

Before the San Joaquin valley was farmed and settled, it was pretty swampy, this despite an annual rainfall that would categorize it as a desert. That was due to snowmelt runoff from the Sierras. Now, that water is being used up pretty quickly.

So, yes, energy and water are two real problems. The aquifer under the Central Valley isn't the only one being used up, and there is no practical way to generate energy in sufficient amounts to run an industrialized society without causing some sort of problems.
 
The aquifers have been overdrawn from for years, CA is still screwed.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, some crops tolerate water well enough that fields can be flooded for a time at least. The water percolates down to the aquifer, and partially replaces the water that has been pumped out.

Before the San Joaquin valley was farmed and settled, it was pretty swampy, this despite an annual rainfall that would categorize it as a desert. That was due to snowmelt runoff from the Sierras. Now, that water is being used up pretty quickly.

So, yes, energy and water are two real problems. The aquifer under the Central Valley isn't the only one being used up, and there is no practical way to generate energy in sufficient amounts to run an industrialized society without causing some sort of problems.
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I think enough sunlight falls on earth to more than satisfy the demands of our industrialized society.
The problem is energy storage!
I think hydrocarbon energy storage is the answer, mostly because much of the infrastructure is already in place.
When they make hydrocarbon fuels from atmospheric CO2, the fuel is carbon neutral when burned.
The ability to store seasonal surplus energy for off season use, could be a game changer.
I have heard the process is similar to a modern cracking refinery.
Fuel - Sunfire
I don't want to fault Audi and Sunfire for the extraordinary work they have been doing,
but the best and brightest minds in the petrochemical world, work for the oil companies,
and we have yet to see what they have come up with.
What we need is for the federal government to unify the grid attach solar rules, so that both
the electrical utility and the solar homeowner have a deal they can live with.
 
longview said:
I think enough sunlight falls on earth to more than satisfy the demands of our industrialized society.
The problem is energy storage!
I think hydrocarbon energy storage is the answer, mostly because much of the infrastructure is already in place.
When they make hydrocarbon fuels from atmospheric CO2, the fuel is carbon neutral when burned.
The ability to store seasonal surplus energy for off season use, could be a game changer.
I have heard the process is similar to a modern cracking refinery.
Fuel - Sunfire
I don't want to fault Audi and Sunfire for the extraordinary work they have been doing,
but the best and brightest minds in the petrochemical world, work for the oil companies,
and we have yet to see what they have come up with.
What we need is for the federal government to unify the grid attach solar rules, so that both
the electrical utility and the solar homeowner have a deal they can live with.
Click to expand...

What you describe is most likely the energy of the future, unless, of course, someone makes a practical cold fusion reactor. Solar panels are still costly, but the price is coming down.
 
Northern Light said:
The aquifers have been overdrawn from for years, CA is still screwed.
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Yes, they have. Sooner or later, California will either have to import water, or take a lot of cropland out of production. If the latter course is taken, expect to pay a lot more for poorer quality produce.
 
Dittohead not! said:
What you describe is most likely the energy of the future, unless, of course, someone makes a practical cold fusion reactor. Solar panels are still costly, but the price is coming down.
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From my perspective, that future is not that far away, the cost curve of solar is moving down,
while the cost curve on oil is moving up.
Solar is already low enough to be viable if one looks at it correctly.
A panel system for my house would be about $20K before the 30% tax credit.
The system would cut my electric bill by about $110 per month.
So a $20K investment, would save $1320 per year, a 6.6% rate of return.
with the tax credit it is like a 9.4% rate of return.
There are also a few intangibles, like roof shading, taxes not paid on power not purchased,
taxed not paid on income not necessary, ect.
 
longview said:
From my perspective, that future is not that far away, the cost curve of solar is moving down,
while the cost curve on oil is moving up.
Solar is already low enough to be viable if one looks at it correctly.
A panel system for my house would be about $20K before the 30% tax credit.
The system would cut my electric bill by about $110 per month.
So a $20K investment, would save $1320 per year, a 6.6% rate of return.
with the tax credit it is like a 9.4% rate of return.
There are also a few intangibles, like roof shading, taxes not paid on power not purchased,
taxed not paid on income not necessary, ect.
Click to expand...

Sounds like it would work for you. I've looked into it as well, and it doesn't pencil out for me. My electric bill isn't that high except for a couple of months in the summer. It's getting better, though, as the cost of electricity goes up and the cost of solar panels goes down.
 
Jack Hays said:
Climate News
[h=1]What “Permanent Drought”? California Governor officially declares end to drought emergency[/h]From the “but the media told us the drought was permanent in California” fake news department. Wired, May 2016: “Thanks El Niño, But California’s Drought Is Probably Forever“. “California is still in a state of drought. For now, maybe forever.” The article gives no support — none — for this clickbait claim. In January Wired attempted…
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Yes, the governor thinks the drought is over. No more drought relief, no more talk of water projects, oh no, we'll spend the money on high speed rail instead.

Meanwhile, the aquifer that supports a multi billion dollar agricultural industry is gradually drying up.

One wet year doesn't make up for decades of ground water overdraft, nor does it bring back millions of acre feet of water being lost to the ocean for lack of storage.

Maybe another twenty years like this one would make a difference.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, the governor thinks the drought is over. No more drought relief, no more talk of water projects, oh no, we'll spend the money on high speed rail instead.

Meanwhile, the aquifer that supports a multi billion dollar agricultural industry is gradually drying up.

One wet year doesn't make up for decades of ground water overdraft, nor does it bring back millions of acre feet of water being lost to the ocean for lack of storage.

Maybe another twenty years like this one would make a difference.
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It they do not slow down the aquifer draw rate to slower than the recharge rate, no number of wet years will help!
 
longview said:
It they do not slow down the aquifer draw rate to slower than the recharge rate, no number of wet years will help!
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Exactly right.
There will come a day of reckoning sooner or later in which either more water will be brought in to the state, or a lot of expensive and productive farm land will become useless.

That day can be postponed, perhaps indefinitely, by utilizing all of the water that Mother Nature gives us during wet years like this one.

Recharging ground water is one way of storing water for the future, and that is being done to a degree.

Dams would no doubt help, but they are expensive both in dollars as well as in environmental damage.

There is no easy solution, of course. Personally, I think bringing back Tulare Lake, once the biggest lake in California and now a dry desert, would help.

And spending money on water projects rather than high speed rail would be a good step forward as well.
 
Rainfall / records
[h=1]What “permanent drought”? New all-time rainfall record set for California[/h]From the California Dept. of Water Resources Northern Sierra Precipitation Sets Water Year Record Atmospheric Rivers Pushed Total to 89.7 Inches since October 1 SACRAMENTO – Never in nearly a century of Department of Water Resources (DWR) recordkeeping has so much precipitation fallen in the northern Sierra in a water year. DWR reported today that…
 
Jack Hays said:
Rainfall / records
[h=1]What “permanent drought”? New all-time rainfall record set for California[/h]From the California Dept. of Water Resources Northern Sierra Precipitation Sets Water Year Record Atmospheric Rivers Pushed Total to 89.7 Inches since October 1 SACRAMENTO – Never in nearly a century of Department of Water Resources (DWR) recordkeeping has so much precipitation fallen in the northern Sierra in a water year. DWR reported today that…
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Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Hopefully this rainfall will eliminate, at least for a while, the massive destruction caused by the wildfires Northern California has been experiencing the past several years! It seems there's always something extreme affecting the State! :wow:
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Hopefully this rainfall will eliminate, at least for a while, the massive destruction caused by the wildfires Northern California has been experiencing the past several years! It seems there's always something extreme affecting the State! :wow:
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Greetings, Polgara.:2wave:

We shall see.:mrgreen:
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Hopefully this rainfall will eliminate, at least for a while, the massive destruction caused by the wildfires Northern California has been experiencing the past several years! It seems there's always something extreme affecting the State! :wow:
Click to expand...

It will create gobs of new growth that will be fuel for the next dry spell.
If at that time, California mismanages and prevents it from burning and
allows the cycle to repeat over and over again, when it finally burns,
it will be a genuine holocaust. And "Climate Change" will be blamed.

So far this sort of thing has happened in the past and we all know it.
 
Steve Case said:
It will create gobs of new growth that will be fuel for the next dry spell.
If at that time, California mismanages and prevents it from burning and
allows the cycle to repeat over and over again, when it finally burns,
it will be a genuine holocaust. And "Climate Change" will be blamed.

So far this sort of thing has happened in the past and we all know it.
Click to expand...

The next dry spell will be starting in a few weeks, and will probably last until sometime in November.
Nothing unusual about that. It's normal for there to be no rain in most of California for six months of the year.
And you're right: All that grass will get dry and become fuel for wildfires.
And yes, mismanagement has created a situation ideal for wildfires.
But wildfires have been a part of the natural cycle of growth and renewal since long before the Europeans discovered the State of California.
So, are wildfires natural, or are they anthropogenic?
 
Dittohead not! said:
The next dry spell will be starting in a few weeks, and will probably last until sometime in November.
Nothing unusual about that. It's normal for there to be no rain in most of California for six months of the year.
And you're right: All that grass will get dry and become fuel for wildfires.
And yes, mismanagement has created a situation ideal for wildfires.
But wildfires have been a part of the natural cycle of growth and renewal since long before the Europeans discovered the State of California.
So, are wildfires natural, or are they anthropogenic?
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Fire prevention that allows an abnormal amount of deadwood to build up resulting
in an abnormally violent wildfire is anthropogenic but because of mismanagement,
not "Climate Change". And I know that because I've read that in the popular press,
but when we have wildfires "Climate Change" is always brought up and is listed as
a metric for making the case that wildfires are a "Climate Change indicator.

This sort of thing from the EPA is why:

Figure 1. Projected Impact of Unmitigated Climate Change on Wildfire Activity

wildfire-fig1-hires.png
 
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Steve Case said:
Fire prevention that allows an abnormal amount of deadwood to build up resulting
in an abnormally violent wildfire is anthropogenic but because of mismanagement,
not "Climate Change". And I know that because I've read that in the popular press,
but when we have wildfires "Climate Change" is always brought up and is listed as
a metric for making the case that wildfires are a "Climate Change indicator.

This sort of thing from the EPA is why:

Figure 1. Projected Impact of Unmitigated Climate Change on Wildfire Activity

wildfire-fig1-hires.png
Click to expand...

I'm not sure just where you're reading that California wildfires are the result of climate change. Surely, it's not in anything published by members of the IPCC.

Wildfires have been a part of he natural ecosystems in California for thousands of years. Lately, humans have started building houses in the fire prone chaparral, and demanding that the government stop the natural cyclical burning off of brush and grass. As a result, fuel has built up and fires have become hotter and more difficult to control.

There you go. Anthropogenic wildfires, or are they? They're natural, and have been occurring for a very long time after all.

Edit: OK, I followed your link, and do see where you're getting your information. Do you think the article you linked to came from the EPA, or the IPCC?

The link between climate change and California wildfires is pretty tenuous.
 
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EMNofSeattle said:
We actually probably could grow oranges out east. however all the good land has been taken up by vineyards, and apple orchards.

Florida is a better place to increase citrus production, in fact the majority of citrus products I buy are from the beautiful Sunshine State.
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Too cold for Oranges to grow in Eastern Washington. Most winters have lows reaching between -10 below zero F to 5 degree above zero F.

The reason why Apples, Pears, Vineyards, Cane berries, Alfalfa are grown in abundance there, is because of their good winter hardiness.
 
Jack Hays said:
It sure is a lot of water. Is the drought over?


Storm: 10 trillion gallons over next 7 days for CA #LakeOroville watershed to get massive amounts of rain

Last week, I said that up to a foot of rain could be seen in the Lake Oroville watershed due to a series of “supersoaker storms” coming through. Now, the largest of the storms is bearing down. Dr. Ryan Maue of WeatherBell says there’s going to be an unbelievable “10 trillion gallons” in the next…
Continue reading →

Excessive rainfall on way to California 4 to 10 inches of rain along coast from Santa Cruz north … same for mountains above Oroville. –Dr. Ryan Maue on Twitter
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Fow flooding will be blamed on AGW...
 
Jack Hays said:
My late mother lived in Prescott, AZ for 30 years, so I'm familiar with their situation. Golf courses were pretty green as of 2016. Regardless, population growth will certainly outstrip water supply.
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But AGW will be blamed on the water shortages.
 
Jack Hays said:
Not just California but Arizona too. Too many people for the water supply.
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Arizona is the worst, 600 golf courses in Arizona. It's a desert, that's a hell of a lot of water just for golf. And Vegas with all their fountains and swimming pools just evaporating all that water away
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Arizona is the worst, 600 golf courses in Arizona. It's a desert, that's a hell of a lot of water just for golf. And Vegas with all their fountains and swimming pools just evaporating all that water away
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Yes, but it will precipitate out somewhere.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Yes, but it will precipitate out somewhere.
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I think it might be safe to say that parts of Arizona have been terafarmed.
You cannot transport that much water to a dry area, and not change things a little.
 
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