• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The End of the California Drought?

Tim the plumber said:

1 Do you think that the US economy is serriously under threat?

2 Do you think that using water to grow fruit in the Imperial valley rather than expand Las Vagas is the answer to that?

3 What a high level of insecurity you have.
Click to expand...

1 No, the US has the strongest economy in the world by far.
2 Growing our own food is a big reason for that, but we do need to address the issue of water, both for cities and for agriculture. It can't be an either/or equation.
3 not sure why you say that.
 
Jack Hays said:
Not just California but Arizona too. Too many people for the water supply.
Click to expand...

Well, AZ actually changed things water wise about 20 years ago, doing the controls that CA did just last year. While we were still low on water, we are much better prepared. It used to be that a lot of our good water went into cotton fields and golf courses, we have been good at conserving. California needed water reform a long time ago, lots of politics.

Hell, just watch the movie Chinatown...
 
beefheart said:
Well, AZ actually changed things water wise about 20 years ago, doing the controls that CA did just last year. While we were still low on water, we are much better prepared. It used to be that a lot of our good water went into cotton fields and golf courses, we have been good at conserving. California needed water reform a long time ago, lots of politics.

Hell, just watch the movie Chinatown...
Click to expand...

My late mother lived in Prescott, AZ for 30 years, so I'm familiar with their situation. Golf courses were pretty green as of 2016. Regardless, population growth will certainly outstrip water supply.
 
Jack Hays said:
My late mother lived in Prescott, AZ for 30 years, so I'm familiar with their situation. Golf courses were pretty green as of 2016. Regardless, population growth will certainly outstrip water supply.
Click to expand...

Absent better water transport, storage, and conservation, yes it will. Desalinization could help, too, especially places like Los Angeles. They have abundant water there, it's just a little salty.
 
Jack Hays said:
It sure is a lot of water. Is the drought over?


Storm: 10 trillion gallons over next 7 days for CA #LakeOroville watershed to get massive amounts of rain

Last week, I said that up to a foot of rain could be seen in the Lake Oroville watershed due to a series of “supersoaker storms” coming through. Now, the largest of the storms is bearing down. Dr. Ryan Maue of WeatherBell says there’s going to be an unbelievable “10 trillion gallons” in the next…
Continue reading →

Excessive rainfall on way to California 4 to 10 inches of rain along coast from Santa Cruz north … same for mountains above Oroville. –Dr. Ryan Maue on Twitter
Click to expand...

Yeah, we're doin pretty good out here. It's the infrastructure that's failing us and causing all the trouble. Some San Jose citizens are blamin the city and county for not keepin up with things and I think they'll get a court case out of this after it's all over.

The Russian river, Sebastopol and Napa are holding out pretty well; they're usually hit the hardest and are the first to get the worst: that area of the Bay Area gets the heaviest rains every year; from San Rafael, all the way up. It's sink holes and slides that are causing all the road closures. What's got me a little worried though is L.A.; they're gettin smoked.

The drought is being declared over - for now. If it's dry for the rest of the year, and with the summers we've been having, we could be back in it again. JANUARY in the Bay Area however, you may be surprised to know, was, up until 1990 'er so... always rained very heavy, and on and off up until April. Sometimes starting in Dec. But since this warming thing has been taken hold, it's all changed and we then we got this drought. We'll see how things go for the rest of the year. Summer will be interesting.
 
jet57 said:
Yeah, we're doin pretty good out here. It's the infrastructure that's failing us and causing all the trouble. Some San Jose citizens are blamin the city and county for not keepin up with things and I think they'll get a court case out of this after it's all over.

The Russian river, Sebastopol and Napa are holding out pretty well; they're usually hit the hardest and are the first to get the worst: that area of the Bay Area gets the heaviest rains every year; from San Rafael, all the way up. It's sink holes and slides that are causing all the road closures. What's got me a little worried though is L.A.; they're gettin smoked.

The drought is being declared over - for now. If it's dry for the rest of the year, and with the summers we've been having, we could be back in it again. JANUARY in the Bay Area however, you may be surprised to know, was, up until 1990 'er so... always rained very heavy, and on and off up until April. Sometimes starting in Dec. But since this warming thing has been taken hold, it's all changed and we then we got this drought. We'll see how things go for the rest of the year. Summer will be interesting.
Click to expand...

It's going to be a bad year for wildfires. First, all the rain has made grass grow nice and tall, which will provide plenty of kindling. Next, higher up the mountains, those drought killed trees will be nice and dry and flammable as torches. Meanwhile, some of those trees have fallen, adding to the level of fuel on the forest floor.

Unless there is an unusually wet summer, the next crisis will be wildfires.
 
[h=1]Watch the ‘super-soaker’ pineapple express storm hitting California[/h]NASA eyes Pineapple Express soaking California – video follows From the NASA/GODDARD SPACE FLIGHT CENTER NASA has estimated rainfall from the Pineapple Express over the coastal regions southwestern Oregon and northern California from the series of storms in February, 2017. The West Coast is once again feeling the effects of the “Pineapple Express.” Back in…
Continue reading →
 
Jack Hays said:
[h=1]Watch the ‘super-soaker’ pineapple express storm hitting California[/h]NASA eyes Pineapple Express soaking California – video follows From the NASA/GODDARD SPACE FLIGHT CENTER NASA has estimated rainfall from the Pineapple Express over the coastal regions southwestern Oregon and northern California from the series of storms in February, 2017. The West Coast is once again feeling the effects of the “Pineapple Express.” Back in…
Continue reading →
Click to expand...
That one perked up my interest.
Currently, there is a lot of snow in the Sierra, really a lot, like nearly 20 feet at Tioga Pass (10,000 feet). Back in '97 we had the same situation, and a "pineapple express", i.e., a very warm and wet storm, melted most of it in a few days. The result was, of course, major flooding.

This storm appears to have already passed, and that snow is still there (whew!)

A warm and wet storm out of the South Pacific would be a real disaster at this point. If the snow melts gradually, it will provide water, but if it melts all at once, look out.
 
Tim the plumber said:
Why can't California simply grow less food and thus have plenty of water for cities and golf courses?
Click to expand...

you know the fact is agriculture is the number one user of water.

and also understand this, california grows much specialty produce, and having worked for a produce wholesaler, I'll tell you probably a third of perfectly edible produce is thrown away before it even goes to the grocery store, who will throw away half of what they get if it doesn't look perfect. seriously, if California cut farm production by half and americans just decided a little blemish in their head of lettuce was ok it probably wouldn't make a difference. we grow much food but we waste the majority of it, unless you're willing to starve rather then eat food with imperfections there will not be famine.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Sure. Let's grow oranges in Washington. There's plenty of water there, after all.
Click to expand...

We actually probably could grow oranges out east. however all the good land has been taken up by vineyards, and apple orchards.

Florida is a better place to increase citrus production, in fact the majority of citrus products I buy are from the beautiful Sunshine State.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It is also the #1 producer of food.

Try getting along without it sometime.
Click to expand...

true, but the idea that california is wasting water hand over fist for golf courses and lawns is not the issue IMO. that water use is a drop in the bucket compared to what the farms take, you could ban green lawns in the entire state and it doesn't hardly move the needle.

and the emotional point aside, we waste a huge amount of the harvest and export even more, in addition most americans are overfed so if farms keep getting water cut we can still easily feed our entire population

There is no risk of famine from a CA drought. at least not here.

The CA government has been making this problem worse though by not spending enough on water infrastructure, it's time for a CWP phase two.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
true, but the idea that california is wasting water hand over fist for golf courses and lawns is not the issue IMO. that water use is a drop in the bucket compared to what the farms take, you could ban green lawns in the entire state and it doesn't hardly move the needle.

and the emotional point aside, we waste a huge amount of the harvest and export even more, in addition most americans are overfed so if farms keep getting water cut we can still easily feed our entire population

There is no risk of famine from a CA drought. at least not here.

The CA government has been making this problem worse though by not spending enough on water infrastructure, it's time for a CWP phase two.
Click to expand...

California produces a lot more of the nation and the world's food than you seem to realize.
But, yes, more needs to be spent on water infrastructure.
 
Drought / Snow
[h=1]California Snowpack 185% of normal, another big snow on the way[/h]From the “California is in a permanent drought due to climate change – because we said so” department comes this good news from NASA, CA DWR, and NOAA From NASA: Abundant Snowpack Blankets the Sierra Nevada March 3, 2017 Snowpack on the Sierra Nevada provides one-third of the water consumed by California citizens, farmers, and…
 
Jack Hays said:
Drought / Snow
[h=1]California Snowpack 185% of normal, another big snow on the way[/h]From the “California is in a permanent drought due to climate change – because we said so” department comes this good news from NASA, CA DWR, and NOAA From NASA: Abundant Snowpack Blankets the Sierra Nevada March 3, 2017 Snowpack on the Sierra Nevada provides one-third of the water consumed by California citizens, farmers, and…
Click to expand...

Yep. I've been up there and seen it. It's awesome. I can stand in a parking lot and stretch my hand up as high as it will go, and still not reach the top of the snowpack, and that's at 7,500 feet in the southern Sierra. Up north, it's deeper still, and higher up it's also deeper still. Yet another cold storm is predicted to hit this weekend. We should have plenty of water next summer at least.

That still doesn't mean the state's water woes are over. It will take more than one wet year to make up for decades of ground water overdraft, particularly after five straight years of below normal precip, including the driest year in hundreds of years in the southern Sierra.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yep. I've been up there and seen it. It's awesome. I can stand in a parking lot and stretch my hand up as high as it will go, and still not reach the top of the snowpack, and that's at 7,500 feet in the southern Sierra. Up north, it's deeper still, and higher up it's also deeper still. Yet another cold storm is predicted to hit this weekend. We should have plenty of water next summer at least.

That still doesn't mean the state's water woes are over. It will take more than one wet year to make up for decades of ground water overdraft, particularly after five straight years of below normal precip, including the driest year in hundreds of years in the southern Sierra.
Click to expand...

Too many people chasing too little water.
 
Jack Hays said:
Too many people chasing too little water.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The history of the state is a history of battles over water.

Whisky is for drinking, water is for fighting over. Should be the state motto.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Exactly. The history of the state is a history of battles over water.

Whisky is for drinking, water is for fighting over. Should be the state motto.
Click to expand...

But when the water is short, they can't make their whiskey, so they resort to fighting.
 
There was an interesting article in popular science, one scientist is looking at using the surplus water to saturate the fields and orchards,
with the equivalent of several feet of rain. The excess seems to be getting into the water table.
Some crops seem to have a high water tolerance.
 
longview said:
There was an interesting article in popular science, one scientist is looking at using the surplus water to saturate the fields and orchards,
with the equivalent of several feet of rain. The excess seems to be getting into the water table.
Some crops seem to have a high water tolerance.
Click to expand...

I saw that. It's good idea, and a lot cheaper than building dams, even if there were a lot more places to build them.

We also have "percolation ponds" that are filled up when it is wet to allow the water to percolate into the aquifer. It works, but still isn't enough to keep the ground water from getting deeper and deeper.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I saw that. It's good idea, and a lot cheaper than building dams, even if there were a lot more places to build them.

We also have "percolation ponds" that are filled up when it is wet to allow the water to percolate into the aquifer. It works, but still isn't enough to keep the ground water from getting deeper and deeper.
Click to expand...

What I thought was good, was the water went through the irrigation channels, and could relieve some of the overflow pressure.
Sure sounds like a win win.
 
Drought / Hydropower
[h=1]U.S. EIA: “Record Precipitation, Snowpack in California”[/h]Guest post by David Middleton MARCH 22, 2017 Record precipitation, snowpack in California expected to increase hydro generation in 2017 For the first time since 2011, California’s drought is significantly weakening—a result of one of the wettest winters on record. California has experienced record levels of precipitation this winter, and unlike last winter, cooler temperatures…
 
Jack Hays said:
Drought / Hydropower
[h=1]U.S. EIA: “Record Precipitation, Snowpack in California”[/h]Guest post by David Middleton MARCH 22, 2017 Record precipitation, snowpack in California expected to increase hydro generation in 2017 For the first time since 2011, California’s drought is significantly weakening—a result of one of the wettest winters on record. California has experienced record levels of precipitation this winter, and unlike last winter, cooler temperatures…
Click to expand...
Perhaps California would be better served to buy their power elsewhere and save their water for a not so rainy day!
 
longview said:
Perhaps California would be better served to buy their power elsewhere and save their water for a not so rainy day!
Click to expand...

Water used to generate electricity is not lost. It is still used to irrigate crops. Some of it actually gets pumped back uphill at night when there is less demand to generate more electricity the next day.

This has been a great year for water, to be sure. Where there was perhaps a foot of snow last year, and none at all the year before, there are anywhere from ten to fifteen feet right now, and that's very wet snow, the consistency of a slushy from the Quickymart, but without the sugar. Where last year, the ski season had ended in most places, it's just getting a good start this year. Mammoth Mountain may still be open in July this year. It's amazing. What it hasn't done is replace the ground water that has been used up over the past few decades. In the unlikely event we get a series of winters like this one, that water just might be replaced.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Water used to generate electricity is not lost. It is still used to irrigate crops. Some of it actually gets pumped back uphill at night when there is less demand to generate more electricity the next day.

This has been a great year for water, to be sure. Where there was perhaps a foot of snow last year, and none at all the year before, there are anywhere from ten to fifteen feet right now, and that's very wet snow, the consistency of a slushy from the Quickymart, but without the sugar. Where last year, the ski season had ended in most places, it's just getting a good start this year. Mammoth Mountain may still be open in July this year. It's amazing. What it hasn't done is replace the ground water that has been used up over the past few decades. In the unlikely event we get a series of winters like this one, that water just might be replaced.
Click to expand...
There was a good article in Scientific American about using the surplus water to saturate crops,
some crops tolerate the excess well, and much of the water gets into the water table.
I have said for a while, that the real problems humans face is energy and fresh water.
If we can figure out effective energy storage, we can solve both problems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom