• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific[W:116]

Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

I've looked at some posts, and I am going to assume nobody gets it. My apologies if someone does.

This is like watching children. See a paper, jump for the smear.

There's a lot of things going on. But let's start with science policy. Back in the 50s and 60s we made terrific progress with little to no oversight. Bureaucratic oversight developed, and the paper talks about that. But you'd have to know what science policy is, to realise it. The incentives are wrong, and what's wrong with them is that it isn't scientists making the decisions about science. It's a bureaucracy that wasn't created to make great science happen.

Second, there has been enormous growth in science, and the money simply has not kept pace with the need. That's why europe has the big atom smasher, and we don't. Want to guess which party loves tax cuts for the rich, and short changes the rest of the country?

Third, is corporate influence in science. (You might want to remember which party loved deregulation). A lot of that crap science is intended to make some business money.

It's a real problem, needs a real solution.
 
Last edited:
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

late said:
I've looked at some posts, and I am going to assume nobody gets it. My apologies if someone does.

This is like watching children. See a paper, jump for the smear.

There's a lot of things going on. But let's start with science policy. Back in the 50s and 60s we made terrific progress with little to no oversight. Bureaucratic oversight developed, and the paper talks about that. But you'd have to know what science policy is, to realise it. The incentives are wrong, and what's wrong with them is that it isn't scientists making the decisions about science. It's a bureaucracy that wasn't created to make great science happen.

Second, there has been enormous growth in science, and the money simply has not kept pace with the need. That's why europe has the big atom smasher, and we don't. Want to guess which party loves tax cuts for the rich, and short changes the rest of the country?

Third, is corporate influence in science. (You might want to remember which party loved deregulation). A lot of that crap science is intended to make some business money.

It's a real problem, needs a real solution.
Click to expand...
As I have stated before, Humans face two very real problems, and CO2 is not ether one one of them.
Our problems are energy and fresh water.
Our entire first world lifestyle is based on both being available on demand,
as well as the high density energy storage from hydrocarbon fuels.
The energy problem is the long pole, if we solve our energy problem, it can solve the water problem.
An issues with CO2 weather real or not, will be solved as a secondary effect to solving the energy problem.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Rosie1 said:
The pope agrees with global warming and urges countries to do all they can to slow it down.
Click to expand...

I didn't believe in human caused global warming until you told me the Pope said it was true. Now I'm worried. Because the Pope believes in a Magic Man in the Sky, I should take him seriously as a SCIENTIST.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

No, of coarse the Pope isn't a scientist. I could care less what his metaphysical beliefs are. He's a lover of humanity and social leader of a very large group of people (who are conservatives). Actual scientists are saying we can slow down global warming. Countries like Denmark are trying to eliminate their carbon emissions and dependence on fossil fuel. Why has a scientific issue become politicized? Late touched on it, it's because of money. Why help the earth, when money can be made polluting it and exploiting its resources? Politicizing it is merely a tool for that purpose. That is short term thinking. Yes, we will run out, but those that are doing it now won't be around when it is ruined.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

late said:
I've looked at some posts, and I am going to assume nobody gets it. My apologies if someone does.

This is like watching children. See a paper, jump for the smear.
Click to expand...
i is to dum to unnerstand wut u meen
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Brewdog said:
I didn't believe in human caused global warming until you told me the Pope said it was true. Now I'm worried. Because the Pope believes in a Magic Man in the Sky, I should take him seriously as a SCIENTIST.
Click to expand...

Well, he does have a University degree in Chemistry, so he might be more educated in science than most.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Threegoofs said:
Well, he does have a University degree in Chemistry, so he might be more educated in science than most.
Click to expand...

I took four semesters of university chemistry, and I'm trying to remember the part about Jesus.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

longview said:
As I have stated before, Humans face two very real problems

and CO2 is not ether one one of them.

Our problems are energy and fresh water.
Click to expand...

More like 2 thousand..

You don't get to rewrite sciences. Sorry, there is a real world out there.

I'm glad you mentioned water. National Geographic tried to do a Year of Water to get some attention on water issues. Nobody ran with the ball, and that was 10 or 20 years ago.
It's not a problem here, but it's going to be a disastrous problem. Like when the Himalayan glaciers finish melting and about a billion people get thirsty... you know, that thing that's not a problem?

We have the technological sophistication to transition to a post-petroleum world. Some countries (like the US) will be too dimwitted to get with the program, and they will get absolutely hammered.

I doubt simply reducing emissions will be enough. But since your position is an improvement over the drivel I usually see here, I'll cut you some slack on that one.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

SCIENCE FACTS now SCREAMS that humanity has different abilities..... which then makes nations that goes against science to stop progress and to fall..


Politically CORRECT systems is a BIG CRIME AGAINST SCIENCE and PROGRESS


the BIGGEST CRIME against SCIENCE is having 60 IQ voters equal to 160 IQ voters.. doing that destroys nations as the more wise stampedes out and leaves a nation in GHETTOS

the CROOKED MEDIA is the ROOT CAUSE because of their brainwashing help in bringing unwise abilities to vote

The CROOKED MEDIA also helps the CROOKED educational system by brainwashing and covering up SCIENCE findings on natural differences in humanity


science says a ZERO IQ is not equal to a 30 IQ

science says a 60 IQ is NOT EQUAL to a 160IQ

BUT the crooked educational system says all IQ's are EQUAL..

THE REASON is to put as many unwise to vote so CROOKS can brainwash them easier.... this is the media... THE DEMOCRATS. the globalists in both parties


NOW the world sees america's govt as totally corrupt and will go on a monstrous arms race
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

late said:
More like 2 thousand..

You don't get to rewrite sciences. Sorry, there is a real world out there.

I'm glad you mentioned water. National Geographic tried to do a Year of Water to get some attention on water issues. Nobody ran with the ball, and that was 10 or 20 years ago.
It's not a problem here, but it's going to be a disastrous problem. Like when the Himalayan glaciers finish melting and about a billion people get thirsty... you know, that thing that's not a problem?

We have the technological sophistication to transition to a post-petroleum world. Some countries (like the US) will be too dimwitted to get with the program, and they will get absolutely hammered.

I doubt simply reducing emissions will be enough. But since your position is an improvement over the drivel I usually see here, I'll cut you some slack on that one.
Click to expand...

What you are missing is that the correct energy solution will not just reduce emissions, but freeze them.
When man made hydrocarbon fuels are naturally cheaper then the fossil oil variety, the refineries will not be able to make them fast enough.
Since the process uses atmospheric CO2 to make the hydrocarbons fuel, the is CO2 neutral.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

longview said:
What you are missing is that the correct energy solution will not just reduce emissions, but freeze them.
When man made hydrocarbon fuels are naturally cheaper then the fossil oil variety, the refineries will not be able to make them fast enough.
Since the process uses atmospheric CO2 to make the hydrocarbons fuel, the is CO2 neutral.
Click to expand...

Don't be silly, carbon fuels are the problem, not the answer...
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

late said:
Don't be silly, carbon fuels are the problem, not the answer...
Click to expand...
There is nothing silly about removing CO2 from the air, and storing energy converting it to man made hydrocarbons.

It is carbon neutral.

Please try to follow.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

I would like to have solar, and convert the extra energy to hydrogen. Fuel cells can then be used for the on demand energy and night. To make ones own hydrocarbons would allow a home owner to make their own fuel out of the air, from solar energy.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

late said:
Don't be silly, carbon fuels are the problem, not the answer...
Click to expand...
Don't be silly and exclude a solution based on your preconceived notions.
Many scientific advances are from out following the examples observed in nature.
How does nature store energy, as hydrocarbons mostly!
If the solution halts human CO2 additions to the atmosphere, isn't that what the IPCC wants?
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

longview said:
Don't be silly and exclude a solution based on your preconceived notions.
Many scientific advances are from out following the examples observed in nature.
How does nature store energy, as hydrocarbons mostly!
If the solution halts human CO2 additions to the atmosphere, isn't that what the IPCC wants?
Click to expand...

I think you really don't understand how inefficient it would be to extract atmospheric CO2 on an industrial scale for conversion to a hydrocarbon.

The energy to break a very stable molecule like CO2 to a hydrocarbon is substantial alone, without having to somehow deal with the problem of extracting it from the air at concentrations of 400ppm in an efficient manner.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Threegoofs said:
I think you really don't understand how inefficient it would be to extract atmospheric CO2 on an industrial scale for conversion to a hydrocarbon.

The energy to break a very stable molecule like CO2 to a hydrocarbon is substantial alone, without having to somehow deal with the problem of extracting it from the air at concentrations of 400ppm in an efficient manner.
Click to expand...

I see...

So what is more efficient?

You apparently have the answers.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Lord of Planar said:
I see...

So what is more efficient?

You apparently have the answers.
Click to expand...

Pulling already formed fuel out of the ground, obviously.

But if you're starting with a raw product, using something like plant material - sugars, alcohol, cellulose, is obviously much more efficient.

Again, if you read basic textbooks instead of random journal articles, you might get this.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

late said:
Don't be silly, carbon fuels are the problem, not the answer...
Click to expand...
You're right! What we need are more Atomic power plants and fast --- the faster the better!:roll:
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Threegoofs said:
Pulling already formed fuel out of the ground, obviously.
Click to expand...

I meant for carbon neutral or zero carbon solutions in transportation.

Sorry for not elaborating.

So I ask again. Which is more efficient for transportation?
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Lord of Planar said:
I meant for carbon neutral or zero carbon solutions in transportation.

Sorry for not elaborating.

So I ask again. Which is more efficient for transportation?
Click to expand...

Probably ethanol.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Threegoofs said:
Probably ethanol.
Click to expand...
Not if you mean made by plants. Takes too much fresh water, and we are running low, and projected to run dangerously low on fresh water. Desalination is expensive.

Is there a means of making ethanol from CO2? Quite frankly, I forget if there is.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

LittleNipper said:
You're right! What we need are more Atomic power plants and fast --- the faster the better!:roll:
Click to expand...

I'm not convince nuclear power is the way to go.

Just a quick search, and the first link I clicked: Updated Capital Cost Estimates for Utility Scale Electricity Generating Plants

Table 2.5 has nuclear as one of the more expensive ways of generating electricity, but at least it's zero emissions. Hydroelectric is zero emissions and much cheaper, but we effectively run out of places to build that method of power generation. Wind and solar both come in cheaper, but are inconsistent in power generation. Still, I'm pretty certain that adding some type of storage for peak power of these two would be cheaper than nuclear, and no environmental concern for the waste.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

By the time we ramp up extraction of carbon from the atmosphere (assuming we do that, it's a big assumption), it will be to bury the stuff, or make carbon fiber, or some such thing.

Some things are kinda obvious, if ya ain't grinding an axe.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

Lord of Planar said:
I'm not convince nuclear power is the way to go.

Just a quick search, and the first link I clicked: Updated Capital Cost Estimates for Utility Scale Electricity Generating Plants

Table 2.5 has nuclear as one of the more expensive ways of generating electricity, but at least it's zero emissions. Hydroelectric is zero emissions and much cheaper, but we effectively run out of places to build that method of power generation. Wind and solar both come in cheaper, but are inconsistent in power generation. Still, I'm pretty certain that adding some type of storage for peak power of these two would be cheaper than nuclear, and no environmental concern for the waste.
Click to expand...

First, to respond to a comment made earlier, the last American reactor design was done over 30 years ago. If we build a few new reactors, we should produce a few new designs first. You know, didn't Bush pass a bill to get some reactors built? I wonder what happened to that.

Anyway.. yes nukes are ridiculously expensive. Responding to the multitude of threats posed by global warming will be a lot more expensive. It wouldn't surprise me if we got a few. I'm not a fan, but they will likely make sense in a few places. Here in Maine, I am hoping we eventually cut a deal with Hydro Quebec. We've been trying for 20 or 30 years now. That would reduce our carbon footprint a lot.
 
Re: Science Is Becoming Increasingly Unscientific

RabidAlpaca said:
It's hard to take a critique of science seriously from someone who thinks climate change is a hoax.
Click to expand...

He quotes Patrick Michaels, who wrote a book premised on the idea that climate change is real. Michaels's critique is valid.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom