And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [W:54

bubbabgone · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

code1211 said:
The disappearing heat is a good example of the AGW Science thinking. They used to say that the missing heat was being absorbed by the oceans. Enter the ARGO Array of buoys that methodically measures the temperature of the ocean around the globe and reports it from 3000 points on a regular basis for all depths down to 3000 meters. Turns out there's no warming there either.

What is the reaction of AGW Science?

The warming is being held in the waters of the ocean that is even deeper than the ARGO Buoys dive

Click to expand...

. It's there, but we just can't measure it. It's our fault that it's there and our fault that we can't measure it. WOW!

What is the reaction of real scientist? Find out where the missing heat is going. If you start with the assumed fact that additional CO2 will block more and more heat to the level of Venus, the only option is that the heat is trapped in the ecoshpere and must be here somewhere. This stops the research short of a full examination of the data. This is the standard of AGW Science.

If you look at ALL of the possibilities, you may find something else. Turns out we are radiating more heat into space than AGW Science is comfortable accepting. AGW science is at the level of Astrology in circles of real science.

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.c...-energy-balance-by-spencer-and-braswell-2011/

Remote Sensing | Free Full-Text | On the Misdiagnosis of Surface Temperature Feedbacks from Variations in Earth

<snip>
“The satellite observations suggest there is much more energy lost to space during and after warming than the climate models show,” Spencer said. “There is a huge discrepancy between the data and the forecasts that is especially big over the oceans.”

Not only does the atmosphere release more energy than previously thought, it starts releasing it earlier in a warming cycle. The models forecast that the climate should continue to absorb solar energy until a warming event peaks. Instead, the satellite data shows the climate system starting to shed energy more than three months before the typical warming event reaches its peak.

“At the peak, satellites show energy being lost while climate models show energy still being gained,” Spencer said.
<snip>

Yes ... and the warming deeper in the ocean appears to be growing in favor as the reason that will be given.
Fun to watch.

polgara · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

bubbabgone said:
Yes ... and the warming deeper in the ocean appears to be growing in favor as the reason that will be given.
Fun to watch.

Mother Nature has her way of doing things, which she has done for millions of years. In this case it shows that transference of CO2 occurs near the surface of the ocean, not in the depths. If they want to change their argument to something other than CO2 at this point, I agree, it will be fun and interesting to watch! :thumbs: .

Gimmesometruth · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

code1211 said:
The obvious question is why is he denying the obvious truth that the ice extent in the Arctic increased?

"He" (Plummer) did not "deny" that the ice cap was not worse than in 2012.

You did not read the article very well.

"Recovery" would be a long term reversal of the long term decline in Arctic sheet ice. Being the third worst year is hardly a positive trend in any real perspective.

flogger · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Gimmesometruth said:
"He" (Plummer) did not "deny" that the ice cap was not worse than in 2012.

You did not read the article very well.

"Recovery" would be a long term reversal of the long term decline in Arctic sheet ice. Being the third worst year is hardly a positive trend in any real perspective.

And conversely the Antarctic ice sheet has actually been growing since records began .... so what ? It just proves there are global natural processes at work here we havent begun to fathom

Antarctic Ice Sheet Growing: Study: ‘Mass Gains of the Antarctic Ice Sheet Exceed Losses’ | Climate Depot

code1211 · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Gimmesometruth said:
"He" (Plummer) did not "deny" that the ice cap was not worse than in 2012.

You did not read the article very well.

"Recovery" would be a long term reversal of the long term decline in Arctic sheet ice. Being the third worst year is hardly a positive trend in any real perspective.

According to NASA, 2013 is so far neck in neck for having the most ice of the last 6 years.

The Ice extent seems to have bottomed out in about mid to late decade.

rocket88 · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

code1211 said:
The hysteria on Global Warming has risen from 20 years of warming between 1980 and 2000. It seems to me that 10 years of cooling is about 50% as long as 20 years of warming...

Let's see... the locomotive leaves Chicago, carry the one... Yep! About half as long.

View attachment 67153966

Ah, so misguided hysteria is an excuse to make the same mistake in the other direction, gotcha.

How you look at that graph and don't come to the conclusion that it's getting warmer over time is beyond me. Since 1920 it's generally an upward movement and since the 70's it's even more rapid.

rocket88 · Sep 21, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

code1211 said:
Not to nit pick, but this has not been elevated to the level of being a hypothesis and cannot be until there is a test defined to falsify this notion.

The notion is yet to be proven. Falsifying the unproven is a waste of time.

Unproven =/= big conspiracy.

code1211 · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

rocket88 said:
Ah, so misguided hysteria is an excuse to make the same mistake in the other direction, gotcha.

How you look at that graph and don't come to the conclusion that it's getting warmer over time is beyond me. Since 1920 it's generally an upward movement and since the 70's it's even more rapid.

If you look for the actual moves upward and the periods of little or no change, you will see that from about 1880 to about 1920, there is little if any net warming. From about 1920 to about 1940 there is warming. From about 1940 to about 1980, little if any net warming. From about 1980 to about 2000, there is once again warming. Then in about 2000, the warming seems to stop again. It is key to note here that if the CO2 was the prime driver, the temperature rise up to 2000 would have continued. If the 60 year cycle was dominant, the warming would have ended.

It ended.

If there is a general warming that occurs on a 60 years long cycle with 20 years of warming followed by 40 years of suability, this should have happened.

This is not to say that CO2 is not a GHG. it is only to show that there are other real explanations from REAL scientists based on real data that explain temperature rise without relying on the politically profitable CO2 bogey man.

This also seems to use the novel approach (to AGW Science) of using data to form a conclusion instead of using a conclusion to form that data.

http://people.duke.edu/~ns2002/pdf/Mazzarella-Scafetta-60-yr.pdf

<snip>
In conclusion, the findings of this work indicate that the global climate likely presents a ~60-year oscillation since at least 1700. This natural oscillation was in its warm phase during the period 1970–2000 and has likely largely contrib- uted to the global warming during this period. Scafetta (2010) evaluated that about 60% of the warming observed since 1970s could be associated to a 60-year oscillation. Moreover, this quasi 60-year oscillation does not appear to have a constant amplitude.
<snip>
In conclusion, the finding of this paper confirms a quasi 60-year cycle in the climate system that also further confirms the result of Loehle and Scafetta (2011) that the climate models used by the IPCC have significantly overestimated the anthropogenic effect on climate since 1950 by three to four times.
<snip>
View attachment 67154007

code1211 · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

rocket88 said:
Unproven =/= big conspiracy.

No such thing.

A good scientist will maintain an open mind. I am sure that most of the scientists who are proponents of the unfounded and unproved AGW ideas on warming will concede that it is within the realm of possibility that there is a different cause that is more important than CO2, but that they are not certain to a degree of 100%.

obvious Child · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

code1211 said:
Surface temperatures have NOT risen steadily. The rise has erratic

Cute. Another person who doesn't understand statistics. The data for temperature rises over the past 40+ years has shown a distinct and steady line of temperature increases. If you look at a small bit of data as deniers like you do, do, it looks erratic. But when you look at the long term data, there is no question at ALL that there is a clear line of increasing temperatures. There are years where it doesn't rise as much, goes down a bit, but the long term data all shows temperatures rising.

The data to support the rise of temperature has been revised on at least three occasions by NASA indicating that NASA thinks that the data upon which they rely is suspect.

Or they just got better data.

Really, the only reliable data we have for temperature change started in about 1978 with the weather satellites. Previous estimates relied heavily on regional averaging and adjustments of the actual data.

Regarding the temperature of the Oceans, while you are quoting the popular dogma, the actual data collection in a verifiably scientific methodology started in only about 2005 after the deployment and calibration of the ARGO Array of Buoys. Since then, the beginning temperatures were surprisingly low. Following that the changes have been statistically insignificant, but do indicate cooling.

REAL science is in variance to what AGW Science states with increasingly false and shrill passion.

How are the temperatures surprisingly low? Do you have any concept of ocean acidification?

The notion that the planet is cooling is insane. Plants are speeding up their germination timings to coincide with warming temperature coming sooner. Animals and plants are heading towards the poles every year. Winter melts are happening earlier and earlier. None of this supports a cooling planet at all.

It's funny to see "conservatives" having to essentially call the woodsmen and outdoorsmen who've spent their lives out in the country liars to argue that the planet isn't warming.

flogger · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
Cute. Another person who doesn't understand statistics. The data for temperature rises over the past 40+ years has shown a distinct and steady line of temperature increases. If you look at a small bit of data as deniers like you do, do, it looks erratic. But when you look at the long term data, there is no question at ALL that there is a clear line of increasing temperatures. There are years where it doesn't rise as much, goes down a bit, but the long term data all shows temperatures rising.

So what ?

Do you have any concept of ocean acidification?

Of course. Its the next big taxable scare they've got waiting in the wings for when AGW finally bites the dust

The notion that the planet is cooling is insane. Plants are speeding up their germination timings to coincide with warming temperature coming sooner. Animals and plants are heading towards the poles every year. Winter melts are happening earlier and earlier. None of this supports a cooling planet at all.

And whats not to like about increased yields caused by longer growing seasons and increases in arable land in what were previously regions of tundra ?

It's funny to see "conservatives" having to essentially call the woodsmen and outdoorsmen who've spent their lives out in the country liars to argue that the planet isn't warming

I'm not conservative but I'm curious as to why you feel that has any relevence whatsoever here ? :roll:

obvious Child · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

flogger said:
So what?

What do you mean "so what?"

Long term trends show rising temperatures. That alone refutes the notion of a cooling planet.

Of course. Its the next big taxable scare they've got waiting in the wings for when AGW finally bites the dust

I see the chemistry and biology are not strong with you.

And whats not to like about increased yields caused by longer growing seasons and increases in arable land in what were previously regions of tundra ?

Desertification of large portions of formerly habitable living space. Losing entire species who cannot move fast enough. Having to relocate millions of people.

I'm not conservative but I'm curious as to why you feel that has any relevence whatsoever here ? :roll:

Because these people are describing the changes that support a warming planet. People like Code have to basically call them liars to argue the world is cooling. If the world was cooling, we should see the OPPOSITE of what the back country shows. It's funny seeing Conservatives who like to cultivate the outdoors, rugged manly mystic only to cast those living it as liars.

jmotivator · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
What do you mean "so what?"

Long term trends show rising temperatures. That alone refutes the notion of a cooling planet..

"Long Term Trends" ... you have no concept of what constitutes a long term trend in global climate.

obvious Child · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

jmotivator said:
"Long Term Trends" ... you have no concept of what constitutes a long term trend in global climate.

I'm ignorant because you said so?

Is that the best that self proclaimed "Conservatives" can come up with these days?

flogger · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
What do you mean "so what?"

I mean why do you feel this is of any consequence ?

I see the chemistry and biology are not strong with you.

No Its just I dont suck up every environmentalist scare story I read as if it was gospel

Desertification of large portions of formerly habitable living space. Losing entire species who cannot move fast enough. Having to relocate millions of people.

People and species will adapt just like they have during other such dynamic changes over recent millenia. Todays is nothing special in either its level or rate of change. Your 'cannot move fast enough' comment made me chortle though :lol:

Because these people are describing the changes that support a warming planet. People like Code have to basically call them liars to argue the world is cooling. If the world was cooling, we should see the OPPOSITE of what the back country shows. It's funny seeing Conservatives who like to cultivate the outdoors, rugged manly mystic only to cast those living it as liars.

Politics have nothing whatsoever to do with this . The climate will do what it will do irrespective of anything we will do or have done. It always has and always will whether we are here or not.

obvious Child · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

flogger said:
I mean why do you feel this is of any consequence?

Why do you believe it is of no consequence?

No Its just I dont suck up every environmentalist scare story I read as if it was gospel

Huh? Do you have a grasp of basic chemistry and biology that would suggest you understand what that concept is in the first place?

People and species will adapt just like they have over other such dynamic changes over recent millenia. Todays is nothing special in either its level or rate of change. Your 'cannot move fast enough' comment made me chortle though :lol:

Want to tell me how tree species that take decades to mature to the point of reproduction are going to have enough specimens grow in cooler conditions to survive as a species?

Your ignorance is showing.You laugh because you do not understand the topic.

Politics have nothing whatsoever to do with this . The climate will do what it will do irrespective of anything we will do or have done. It always has and always will whether we are here or not.

Want to explain to me how adding nearly a trillion cubic tons of Co2 causes no change?

flogger · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
Why do you believe it is of no consequence?

Because it has happened many times before over recent millenia

Huh? Do you have a grasp of basic chemistry and biology that would suggest you understand what that concept is in the first place?

Ditto my earlier response

Want to tell me how tree species that take decades to mature to the point of reproduction are going to have enough specimens grow in cooler conditions to survive as a species?

Given the recent hiatus its looking like they might have plenty of time. The way you talk you think the climate has only ever been changed by us !

Your ignorance is showing.You laugh because you do not understand the topic.

No I laugh at nonsense

Want to explain to me how adding nearly a trillion cubic tons of Co2 causes no change

And you claim I'm the one lacking comprehension here ! You do realise extra CO 2 actually increases plant growth surely ? :lol:

obvious Child · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

flogger said:
Because it has happened many times before

Not this quickly.

Ditto my earlier response

Got it. You have no understanding of even the most basic level of chemistry or biology at all.

Given the recent hiatus its looking like they might have plenty of time. The way you talk you think the climate has only ever been changed by usp

Hiatus? Temperatures are still rising. And to do what you claim, we'd need to see temperatures stop rising for a few more decades.

No I laugh at nonsense

Well, considering you have no working understanding of chemistry or biology, science would be viewed as "nonsense."

And you claim I'm the one lacking comprehension here ! You do realise extra CO 2 actually increases plant growth surely ? :lol:

It also raises temperatures and reduces in some species photosynthesis efficiency. And it makes certain areas no longer habitable for certain plants. And there are limits as to how much more Co2 is beneficial for photosynthesis.

Not sure why I'm discussing a science topic with someone who has no grasp of basic biology or chemistry...

flogger · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
Not this quickly

Nonsense.

Got it. You have no understanding of even the most basic level of chemistry or biology at all.

I do but I certainly know environmentalist BS when I hear it too

Hiatus? Temperatures are still rising. And to do what you claim, we'd need to see temperatures stop rising for a few more decades.

James Hansen currently disagrees

Well, considering you have no working understanding of chemistry or biology, science would be viewed as "nonsense."

I'm not trading ad hominem with you ... sorry

It also raises temperatures and reduces in some species photosynthesis efficiency. And it makes certain areas no longer habitable for certain plants. And there are limits as to how much more Co2 is beneficial for photosynthesis.

Any greenhouse owner will confirm ideal growing levels for most plant species are three times those of today which is something you should already have known given your allegedly superior knowlege of chemistry and biology

Not sure why I'm discussing a science topic with someone who has no grasp of basic biology or chemistry

You arent actually discussing any science .

jmotivator · Sep 22, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
I'm ignorant because you said so?

No, you are ignorant because you prove yourself to be with what you say.

EPICA Dome C averages about 70 year between data points, Vostok is a 500-600 years average, maybe. Many points are 1000+ years apart.

We don't even have the equivalent of 2 full data points in the highest fidelity ice core data to compare to the ice core record. One point, last I checked, isn't a "trend".

So no, when you're talking about the extent of actual human knowledge of how this world works, 100 years of instrumental record, only 50 of which can be considered truly global, is not "long term trend". It's simply a better defined, slightly more reliable data point.

obvious Child · Sep 23, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

flogger said:
Nonsense.

Okay, show me a period of time where temperatures increased this quickly without some massive natural disaster. I'm not going to hold my breath.

I do but I certainly know environmentalist BS when I hear it too

How would you know that without any understanding of chemistry? Ocean acidification happens as more and more Co2 is released into the atmosphere. We can test this. To say it's not happening is saying chemistry is wrong.

James Hansen currently disagrees

Disagrees with what? He thinks that temperatures aren't going to rise for decades?

I'm not trading ad hominem with you ... sorry

Funny coming from a guy who doesn't know what ocean acidification we can measure exists. You apparently know enough science to spot lies but you don't know enough basic chemistry to demonstrate even 7th grade mastery of the subject. Sorry if I don't believe you that you understand basic science.

Any greenhouse owner will confirm ideal growing levels for most plant species are three times those of today which is something you should already have known given your allegedly superior knowlege of chemistry and biology

Hey bud, what's the temperature they link with those Co2 levels? I noticed you left that out. Why is that?

Huh. Funny, I said temperature. Why is it that you are avoiding just that?

iguanaman · Sep 23, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

jmotivator said:
No, you are ignorant because you prove yourself to be with what you say.

EPICA Dome C averages about 70 year between data points, Vostok is a 500-600 years average, maybe. Many points are 1000+ years apart.

We don't even have the equivalent of 2 full data points in the highest fidelity ice core data to compare to the ice core record. One point, last I checked, isn't a "trend".

So no, when you're talking about the extent of actual human knowledge of how this world works, 100 years of instrumental record, only 50 of which can be considered truly global, is not "long term trend". It's simply a better defined, slightly more reliable data point.

You will argue that we don't have enough data till doomsday. It is childish to hold a view that depends on a non-existent entity to counteract a irrefutable law of nature. We don't need history to know that increased Co2 will warm the planet and acidify the oceans. Do you think God will protect us from the effects? If not God then why is Earth immune from the universal laws of matter?

obvious Child · Sep 23, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

jmotivator said:
No, you are ignorant because you prove yourself to be with what you say.

Uh Huh.

EPICA Dome C averages about 70 year between data points

Since when were we only considering just EPICA Dome C? You do realize there are plenty of other ice core drill sites no? Or are you just cherry picking the ones you know are long between drills?

Vostok is a 500-600 years average, maybe. Many points are 1000+ years apart.

uh, the Vostok ice drill is essentially a single long piece of ice.

You seem to be confusing the points researchers put on the charts, like this:

File:Vostok 420ky 4curves insolation.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the only data points we have, when in actuality those are just for easier reference and the data points are much more frequent than 600 years. Between 3,000 and 3,200 there are at least a dozen data points.

We don't even have the equivalent of 2 full data point

That appears to be as you cannot read graphs properly.

So no, when you're talking about the extent of actual human knowledge of how this world works, 100 years of instrumental record, only 50 of which can be considered truly global, is not "long term trend". It's simply a better defined, slightly more reliable data point.

Doesn't change the biological data we are seeing, from plants and animals moving towards the pole, seeding and germination happening earlier as well as winter thaws happening earlier and earlier.

gslack · Sep 23, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
Okay, show me a period of time where temperatures increased this quickly without some massive natural disaster. I'm not going to hold my breath.

How would you know that without any understanding of chemistry? Ocean acidification happens as more and more Co2 is released into the atmosphere. We can test this. To say it's not happening is saying chemistry is wrong.

Disagrees with what? He thinks that temperatures aren't going to rise for decades?

Funny coming from a guy who doesn't know what ocean acidification we can measure exists. You apparently know enough science to spot lies but you don't know enough basic chemistry to demonstrate even 7th grade mastery of the subject. Sorry if I don't believe you that you understand basic science.

Hey bud, what's the temperature they link with those Co2 levels? I noticed you left that out. Why is that?

Huh. Funny, I said temperature. Why is it that you are avoiding just that?

ROFL... Where to start...

Your first line...

Okay, show me a period of time where temperatures increased this quickly without some massive natural disaster. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Sure, as soon as you prove your assertions.. First prove this warming is unprecedented throughout history. Second, prove there is currently a "massive natural disaster" occurring.

How would you know that without any understanding of chemistry? Ocean acidification happens as more and more Co2 is released into the atmosphere. We can test this. To say it's not happening is saying chemistry is wrong.

No we can prove chemistry right, by pointing out the entire ocean floor is alkaline... If you do not know what that means in terms of this particular point/subject, please refer to any basic chemistry book..

Funny coming from a guy who doesn't know what ocean acidification we can measure exists. You apparently know enough science to spot lies but you don't know enough basic chemistry to demonstrate even 7th grade mastery of the subject. Sorry if I don't believe you that you understand basic science.

See previous statement.. Repeating ignorance doesn't make it seem smarter...

Hey bud, what's the temperature they link with those Co2 levels? I noticed you left that out. Why is that?

Huh. Funny, I said temperature. Why is it that you are avoiding just that?

Says the guy who just cut up the mans post and removed all context from their discussion... WHich I just reciprocated... Irony is cold..

gslack · Sep 23, 2013

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

obvious Child said:
Uh Huh.

Since when were we only considering just EPICA Dome C? You do realize there are plenty of other ice core drill sites no? Or are you just cherry picking the ones you know are long between drills?

uh, the Vostok ice drill is essentially a single long piece of ice.

You seem to be confusing the points researchers put on the charts, like this:

File:Vostok 420ky 4curves insolation.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the only data points we have, when in actuality those are just for easier reference and the data points are much more frequent than 600 years. Between 3,000 and 3,200 there are at least a dozen data points.

That appears to be as you cannot read graphs properly.

Doesn't change the biological data we are seeing, from plants and animals moving towards the pole, seeding and germination happening earlier as well as winter thaws happening earlier and earlier.

Ice cores are a dubious study at best... They assume that at that spot in that point and time, it was representative of the GH gas concentration levels all over the planet. A bold assumption to put it mildly. Frankly I call it guess work given status by alarmism and frivolously given grant money for anything with global warming attached..

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