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replacing coal power plants with nuclear power plants

Catawba said:
Batteries. I was at a State Park in Nevada in 2005 that was completely off the grid, ran everything off their own solar system.
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there aren't enough batteries to go around for everyone to have them, and they pollute in a big way, duiring mining, processing, manufacturing, recycling, disposal, etc.
Solar is a great supplement when the sun shines. It reduces the amount of coal that gets burned. But Solar will never be an alternative in the base load category. My point here is to make known the substantial difference between alternative and supplement....Coal and Nuclear are alternatives for each other, as each can support the base load on the grid. Combined cycle natural gas plants work better as a peak load source for now, perhaps they will find a way to make really big CCNG plants later. Problem with gas, when it gets really cold and the citizens are using gas to heat their homes, the pressure in the main lines drops, and the CCNG plants need that pressure. Last year in Texas, that happened. Gas plants had to shut down. Coal and Nuclear plants have fuel on hand, at least for a few weeks for coal. There is no way to store natural gas on site for any length of time.
 
EagleAye said:
Then houses with solar panels wouldn't need power from the grid, thus reducing the need for coal. Isn't that the point in the first place?
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your house doesn't use electricity at night? granted, a well designed passive solar home won't need a lot, but it will need some to power the fridge, the freezer, the air handler, and in the south, air conditioning....
 
UtahBill said:
there aren't enough batteries to go around for everyone to have them [...]
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So that's why so many peoples' cars won't start :lamo

UtahBill said:
[...] and they pollute in a big way, duiring mining, processing, manufacturing, recycling, disposal, etc.
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Do they pollute more or less than coal?

Also, please explain how "recycling" pollutes... have the environmentalists been lying to us all these years? :shock:

Bonus question: doesn't "recycling" include or obviate "disposal"? :doh

UtahBill said:
Solar is a great supplement when the sun shines. It reduces the amount of coal that gets burned. But Solar will never be an alternative in the base load category. My point here is to make known the substantial difference between alternative and supplement....Coal and Nuclear are alternatives for each other, as each can support the base load on the grid.
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My argument is that solar could significantly reduce or eliminate the need for coal (even without the 'unobtainable' batteries). Base load could then come from other existing sources (hydroelectric and nuclear, for example). It would, most likely, let us put one particularly nasty fuel source to bed.
 
UtahBill said:
your house doesn't use electricity at night? granted, a well designed passive solar home won't need a lot, but it will need some to power the fridge, the freezer, the air handler, and in the south, air conditioning....
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I should have said the home with solar reduces grid need, during the day. This is still beneficial because it still reduces demand for coal power. Industrial solar plants can have batteries and other storage solutions so they can supply the grid at night. Windmills can continue operation at night. Nuclear can operate all day long. So can wave and hydro power.

People have a habit of dismissing alternative energy solutions because that one solution alone will not replace oil and coal. This is true, but it's not a good reason to dismiss them. Several solutions operating in tandem are a viable answer, not just one source by itself.

Coal cannot be eliminated tomorrow. In fact it will likely take two to three decades to replace. So we should not toss out a solution when we realize it will take time to develop. Let alternatives develop the way oil and coal has been allowed to, and we'll see costs go down and effectiveness go up.
 
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Karl said:
So that's why so many peoples' cars won't start :lamo


Do they pollute more or less than coal?

Also, please explain how "recycling" pollutes... have the environmentalists been lying to us all these years? :shock:

Bonus question: doesn't "recycling" include or obviate "disposal"? :doh


My argument is that solar could significantly reduce or eliminate the need for coal (even without the 'unobtainable' batteries). Base load could then come from other existing sources (hydroelectric and nuclear, for example). It would, most likely, let us put one particularly nasty fuel source to bed.
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agree that solar allows us to pollute less as we burn less coal....yes, even recycling pollutes some....the goal is to pollute less since we can't get by without making SOME mess....not all materials we use can be recycled effectively.....as for comparing batteries to coal, that is a big one, can't say which is worse, depends on how many batteries involved.
Last place I worked, the engineers decided to remove all the lead-acid battery banks at our microwave radio sites in the state of AZ and replace them with Nicad battery banks. Took over a year....in the interim, a strange thing happened, even tho the lead-acid battery banks were very old,they were still doing the job, while the newer technology nicads were failing....
In either case, the battery banks only had to work OCCASIONALLY, as they were backup power in the event of losing normal power from the grid and the propane powered backup generators failed to start.
If you put battery banks in homes, they will be expected to provide power every night. The more you use/cycle a battery, the quicker it fails...
Getting completely off the grid sounds like a good idea, at first. The reality is, we need the grid for the vast majority of our buildings.
 
UtahBill said:
there aren't enough batteries to go around for everyone to have them, and they pollute in a big way, duiring mining, processing, manufacturing, recycling, disposal, etc.
Solar is a great supplement when the sun shines. It reduces the amount of coal that gets burned. But Solar will never be an alternative in the base load category. My point here is to make known the substantial difference between alternative and supplement....Coal and Nuclear are alternatives for each other, as each can support the base load on the grid. Combined cycle natural gas plants work better as a peak load source for now, perhaps they will find a way to make really big CCNG plants later. Problem with gas, when it gets really cold and the citizens are using gas to heat their homes, the pressure in the main lines drops, and the CCNG plants need that pressure. Last year in Texas, that happened. Gas plants had to shut down. Coal and Nuclear plants have fuel on hand, at least for a few weeks for coal. There is no way to store natural gas on site for any length of time.
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They are making advances in battery technology every day, last year I read about batteries safe enough to drink the contents. And they are finding ways to make them using commonly available resources. Solar has the potential to take over a huge share of our energy needs with increased efficiency in building design, lighting and transportation. It is also most applicable in on-site systems.
 
I like the idea of wave energy. It's running all the time day and night. Here's a couple cool systems in use right now:



 
UtahBill said:
[...] Last place I worked, the engineers decided to remove all the lead-acid battery banks at our microwave radio sites in the state of AZ and replace them with Nicad battery banks. Took over a year....in the interim, a strange thing happened, even tho the lead-acid battery banks were very old,they were still doing the job, while the newer technology nicads were failing....
In either case, the battery banks only had to work OCCASIONALLY, as they were backup power in the event of losing normal power from the grid and the propane powered backup generators failed to start.
If you put battery banks in homes, they will be expected to provide power every night. The more you use/cycle a battery, the quicker it fails...
Getting completely off the grid sounds like a good idea, at first. The reality is, we need the grid for the vast majority of our buildings.
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Interesting on the ni-cads (engineers probably should have left well enough alone). Possibility of contamination if the ni-cads were put in a lead acid environment (old lead acid corrosion or leakage or gasses or reuse of testing hardware {hydrometers} will hurt a ni-cad). Also possible: the ni-cads using a different charging system, hopefully that was not reused.

Fork lift batteries can last 10 years or more, I am told. Those seem to be popular with the solar crowd ('tain't cheap). Commercial ni-cads can also be 'rebuilt' in the field, perhaps at a 4-5 year interval (flush, some type of chemical treatment, then add new acid -- the hardware (plates, case, etc) is reused (but you're going to have some nasty chemicals to dispose of, including potash IIRC).

I agree that a grid is needed, but am advancing the argument that at least 50% of the power currently consumed from the grid could be produced locally... especially if electrically heated homes were converted to natural gas.
 
Karl said:
Interesting on the ni-cads (engineers probably should have left well enough alone). Possibility of contamination if the ni-cads were put in a lead acid environment (old lead acid corrosion or leakage or gasses or reuse of testing hardware {hydrometers} will hurt a ni-cad). Also possible: the ni-cads using a different charging system, hopefully that was not reused.

Fork lift batteries can last 10 years or more, I am told. Those seem to be popular with the solar crowd ('tain't cheap). Commercial ni-cads can also be 'rebuilt' in the field, perhaps at a 4-5 year interval (flush, some type of chemical treatment, then add new acid -- the hardware (plates, case, etc) is reused (but you're going to have some nasty chemicals to dispose of, including potash IIRC).

I agree that a grid is needed, but am advancing the argument that at least 50% of the power currently consumed from the grid could be produced locally... especially if electrically heated homes were converted to natural gas.
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no contamination, old chargers not reused, new chargers came with batterybanks...
Edward Mazria, proponent of Architecture 2030, says we can reduce the need for new power plants substantially if we just built our buildings better....
 
UtahBill said:
no contamination, old chargers not reused, new chargers came with batterybanks...
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Oh well, I've exhausted my ideas. Were the ni-cads made in China? ;)
UtahBill said:
Edward Mazria, proponent of Architecture 2030, says we can reduce the need for new power plants substantially if we just built our buildings better....
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No argument there. Add a solar installation on every roof and double down on the grid savings.
 
Karl said:
Oh well, I've exhausted my ideas. Were the ni-cads made in China? ;)

No argument there. Add a solar installation on every roof and double down on the grid savings.
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perhaps you missed my point, make the buildings so energy efficient that their need for electricity is halved.....THEN put on half the solar panels you might have otherwise needed.

Back before CFL's, I read (probably Mother Earth News) about a house that would get uncomfortably warm in wintertime northeast USA just from the heat of light bulbs if they were all turned on at the same time. At the house warming party, it literally got too warm from all the body heat given off by their friends. They had to open windows...
Triple pane windows, 8" walls, massive insulation in the attic, heat recovery ventilator to pre-heat incoming fresh air with outgoing stale/stinky/humid air....
Done during construction, much can be done quite cheaply to reduce the heating and cooling requirements of a building. Payback period is reasonable, and even if the mortgage is a bit higher, there are more than enough offsetting energy savings.
 
UtahBill said:
[...] Back before CFL's, I read (probably Mother Earth News) about a house that would get uncomfortably warm in wintertime northeast USA just from the heat of light bulbs if they were all turned on at the same time. At the house warming party, it literally got too warm from all the body heat given off by their friends. They had to open windows... [...]
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Poor man's heater in the midwest -- leave on a 100W light bulb in the pumphouse (shed for water well pump piping) to keep the water pipes from freezing in the winter ;) (as long as it didn't get down to zero or some such).
 
UtahBill said:
Still don't know why anyone worrys about a nuclear disaster, which is highly unlikely in the USA....
so what if a few hundred square miles are uninhabitable? Have you ever been to Nevada? Most of it is uninhabitable...
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kind of like utah or arizona huh?
 
UtahBill said:
your house doesn't use electricity at night? granted, a well designed passive solar home won't need a lot, but it will need some to power the fridge, the freezer, the air handler, and in the south, air conditioning....
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Most people don't realize how much elec refrigerators and freezers use. Speaking as someone who lives off grid I can tell you they use alot and having enough solar panels and batteries to run them overnight and or during cloudy periods means you will have to have a 20 k plus system depending on your location. I opted for the propane solution.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Most people don't realize how much elec refrigerators and freezers use. Speaking as someone who lives off grid I can tell you they use alot and having enough solar panels and batteries to run them overnight and or during cloudy periods means you will have to have a 20 k plus system depending on your location. I opted for the propane solution.
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You have made a large mistake in your computations there. The bass model energy star electric refrigerators and freezers each use about 300 kwh per year.

"the output of a 200 square-foot PV panel system would be 3285 kWh per year"

How to calculate solar and wind energy power solar panels and system size for solar electric and solar water (thermal) systems wind turbine generator systems.
 
majora$$hole said:
eat drink and be merry for tomarrow you may be in utah!
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that may be changing as well, seems the govt employees in charge of the state liquor stores were ripping off a lot of the stock, selling it and drinking it....
 
Catawba said:
You have made a large mistake in your computations there. The bass model energy star electric refrigerators and freezers each use about 300 kwh per year.

"the output of a 200 square-foot PV panel system would be 3285 kWh per year"

How to calculate solar and wind energy power solar panels and system size for solar electric and solar water (thermal) systems wind turbine generator systems.
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Like I said it depends where you live. I have a friend here in north Idaho with 30 k system and he still has to use a generator in cloudy periods over 2 days. The problem you run into is storage, it takes a massive battery bank to run your entire home very long with no sun. You may want to argue over it with info you get on sites but I am just relating real world experience. Now if you lived in Arizona, thats another thing altogether.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Like I said it depends where you live. I have a friend here in north Idaho with 30 k system and he still has to use a generator in cloudy periods over 2 days. The problem you run into is storage, it takes a massive battery bank to run your entire home very long with no sun. You may want to argue over it with info you get on sites but I am just relating real world experience. Now if you lived in Arizona, thats another thing altogether.
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Unless it is cloudy every day, I don't see why a 30 k system would be needed. At any rate, you know you don't even have to have a battery storage system if you just use the solar panels a supplement to your grid power. For most people, their highest usage is during the day when solar works. With a small solar panel system and an inverter you could reduce your power bill by over half.
 
Catawba said:
Unless it is cloudy every day, I don't see why a 30 k system would be needed. At any rate, you know you don't even have to have a battery storage system if you just use the solar panels a supplement to your grid power. For most people, their highest usage is during the day when solar works. With a small solar panel system and an inverter you could reduce your power bill by over half.
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OK, we are talking apples and oranges here, I am talking off grid, you are talking on the grid supplemental solar, two entirely different subjects. If someone on the grid finds it's economical to do this I am all for it, more power to them, no pun intended. As for cloudy days, many parts of the country including where I live have more cloudy days in winter than sunny days, waaay more. I have been starting my generator every day for the last week.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
OK, we are talking apples and oranges here, I am talking off grid, you are talking on the grid supplemental solar, two entirely different subjects. If someone on the grid finds it's economical to do this I am all for it, more power to them, no pun intended. As for cloudy days, many parts of the country including where I live have more cloudy days in winter than sunny days, waaay more. I have been starting my generator every day for the last week.
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No wind there in Idaho?
 
Catawba said:
No wind there in Idaho?
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Not enough steady wind where I live but I am planning on hydro power from a stream on state land above my land. Problem is I have to get a permit from the state to do it. The stream comes onto my land but I need to get more elevation to get enough head to make it feasible. I'm not holding my breath for this permit to ever come through though.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Not enough steady wind where I live but I am planning on hydro power from a stream on state land above my land. Problem is I have to get a permit from the state to do it. The stream comes onto my land but I need to get more elevation to get enough head to make it feasible. I'm not holding my breath for this permit to ever come through though.
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Keep pushing for it dude. Hydro is an excellent solution that runs day and night, rain or shine.
 
Catawba said:
You have made a large mistake in your computations there. The bass model energy star electric refrigerators and freezers each use about 300 kwh per year.

"the output of a 200 square-foot PV panel system would be 3285 kWh per year"

How to calculate solar and wind energy power solar panels and system size for solar electric and solar water (thermal) systems wind turbine generator systems.
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KW/hr isn't the main factor to consider supplying your fridge and freezer, hard to run some loads on solar unless you have a battery bank attached....surge currents are high when compressors start....good way to ruin a fridge is to try running it on a system that can't handle start surges.
 
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