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A new way to fix the student loan problem in the USA.

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wellwisher

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I figured out a cost effective way to fix the student loan problem in the USA using the free market. The idea is to treat a diploma as a commodity. Let me explain how this can work, using an analogy.

Say you had all the skills and decided to design and build your dream house. You get a loan from the bank to buy the property and materials. You work hard over several years building your dream house. Once it is done, you still owe a lot of money to the bank and find that you cannot afford to pay it back. The bank will foreclose on your property. You will lose the fruit of all your labor, the bank gets your house, so it can sell the house and reimburse itself for the loan.

If we treated the college diploma and student loan, the same way as we treat the house and mortgage, if we paid off a student loan this would entitle the payer the student's diploma. The bank does not allow the home owner to keep the house if they default. The entity that now owns the diploma, would be able to sell it to recoup their expenses. This way you could buy a diploma, that has been repossessed, without having to go to college. Instead of victimizing the tax payer, this will be driven by free market supply and demand.

In the example of the man building his dream house, the new owner of his house who bought it from the banks, has bragging rights to the dream home, even though they did not do any of the work. All they did was get a loan and buy the house from the bank. The man who built the house, originally, has memories and experiences which are always his. He only lost the house. The same could be done with the diploma. The student who defaults may have done all the work for the diploma, but the other person gets to enjoy the dream diploma, simply by buying it in the diploma foreclosure market. They do it with houses.

Conceptually, rich people could go to diploma brokers, as a way to get ideal diplomas for their children at a birth. Why wait for talent to emerge and grow. Wouldn't it be nice to have a degree at 1 year old? That makes you look like a genius to your friends. Colleges may need to buy back foreclosed diplomas, so their degrees maintain value. Colleges have made out like a bandit, and this would level the field. Some forward thinking students may decide to get a loan for college diploma, in High School, then go work in the trades, so they can pay it off faster and still have a degree.

In the end, a diploma is a type of resume prop, to help one open doors to jobs and organizations. Why not make it a commodity and solve the student loan problem?
 
Can we just rent someone else's diploma instead? Why should I be tied down by a medical degree if I decide in a year I want to move to law or engineering?
 
wellwisher said:
I figured out a cost effective way to fix the student loan problem in the USA using the free market. The idea is to treat a diploma as a commodity. Let me explain how this can work, using an analogy.

Say you had all the skills and decided to design and build your dream house. You get a loan from the bank to buy the property and materials. You work hard over several years building your dream house. Once it is done, you still owe a lot of money to the bank and find that you cannot afford to pay it back. The bank will foreclose on your property. You will lose the fruit of all your labor, the bank gets your house, so it can sell the house and reimburse itself for the loan.

If we treated the college diploma and student loan, the same way as we treat the house and mortgage, if we paid off a student loan this would entitle the payer the student's diploma. The bank does not allow the home owner to keep the house if they default. The entity that now owns the diploma, would be able to sell it to recoup their expenses. This way you could buy a diploma, that has been repossessed, without having to go to college. Instead of victimizing the tax payer, this will be driven by free market supply and demand.

In the example of the man building his dream house, the new owner of his house who bought it from the banks, has bragging rights to the dream home, even though they did not do any of the work. All they did was get a loan and buy the house from the bank. The man who built the house, originally, has memories and experiences which are always his. He only lost the house. The same could be done with the diploma. The student who defaults may have done all the work for the diploma, but the other person gets to enjoy the dream diploma, simply by buying it in the diploma foreclosure market. They do it with houses.

Conceptually, rich people could go to diploma brokers, as a way to get ideal diplomas for their children at a birth. Why wait for talent to emerge and grow. Wouldn't it be nice to have a degree at 1 year old? That makes you look like a genius to your friends. Colleges may need to buy back foreclosed diplomas, so their degrees maintain value. Colleges have made out like a bandit, and this would level the field. Some forward thinking students may decide to get a loan for college diploma, in High School, then go work in the trades, so they can pay it off faster and still have a degree.

In the end, a diploma is a type of resume prop, to help one open doors to jobs and organizations. Why not make it a commodity and solve the student loan problem?
Click to expand...

 
wellwisher said:
I figured out a cost effective way to fix the student loan problem in the USA using the free market. The idea is to treat a diploma as a commodity. Let me explain how this can work, using an analogy.

Say you had all the skills and decided to design and build your dream house. You get a loan from the bank to buy the property and materials. You work hard over several years building your dream house. Once it is done, you still owe a lot of money to the bank and find that you cannot afford to pay it back. The bank will foreclose on your property. You will lose the fruit of all your labor, the bank gets your house, so it can sell the house and reimburse itself for the loan.

If we treated the college diploma and student loan, the same way as we treat the house and mortgage, if we paid off a student loan this would entitle the payer the student's diploma. The bank does not allow the home owner to keep the house if they default. The entity that now owns the diploma, would be able to sell it to recoup their expenses. This way you could buy a diploma, that has been repossessed, without having to go to college. Instead of victimizing the tax payer, this will be driven by free market supply and demand.

In the example of the man building his dream house, the new owner of his house who bought it from the banks, has bragging rights to the dream home, even though they did not do any of the work. All they did was get a loan and buy the house from the bank. The man who built the house, originally, has memories and experiences which are always his. He only lost the house. The same could be done with the diploma. The student who defaults may have done all the work for the diploma, but the other person gets to enjoy the dream diploma, simply by buying it in the diploma foreclosure market. They do it with houses.

Conceptually, rich people could go to diploma brokers, as a way to get ideal diplomas for their children at a birth. Why wait for talent to emerge and grow. Wouldn't it be nice to have a degree at 1 year old? That makes you look like a genius to your friends. Colleges may need to buy back foreclosed diplomas, so their degrees maintain value. Colleges have made out like a bandit, and this would level the field. Some forward thinking students may decide to get a loan for college diploma, in High School, then go work in the trades, so they can pay it off faster and still have a degree.

In the end, a diploma is a type of resume prop, to help one open doors to jobs and organizations. Why not make it a commodity and solve the student loan problem?
Click to expand...

It'll be like buying and selling a car.

"I have a 1989 Liberal Arts. Cheap."

"I have a 2019 Electrical Engineer. Only $75,000. Terms available."

"COME ON DOWN to Dealin' Doug's Used Diploma Mart!!"
 
Mycroft said:
It'll be like buying and selling a car.

"I have a 1989 Liberal Arts. Cheap."

"I have a 2019 Electrical Engineer. Only $75,000. Terms available."

"COME ON DOWN to Dealin' Doug's Used Diploma Mart!!"
Click to expand...



The person buying the Liberal Arts degree wouldn't pay much for it, wouldn't get a very high-paying job, but would more likely be able to do the work and thus keep the job and have gotten the money's worth for the degree.

The person buying the Engineering degree would pay a lot for it, would get a higher-paying job, but wouldn't likely be able to do the work and would thus lose the job and wasted the money payed for the degree.
 
Why not just make college free instead? We already have public education for 13 years, what is another 4?
 
Someone on this site once suggested what i think is a GREAT idea. Tie the University to the borrower as a co-signer. If the student defaults, the University is on the hook for the loan and the University can then go after the student. BRILLIANT. The Universities have to go back to actually being selective about their student body again instead of admitting unqualified students and putting them on 6-8 year tracks to failure and a road that leads to nowhere.

Conversely...if there was an opportunity to subsidize tech schools and community colleges to help students become better qualified for a University education or qualified for life with a skill...that would be a great companion piece to the first.
 
wellwisher said:
I figured out a cost effective way to fix the student loan problem in the USA using the free market. The idea is to treat a diploma as a commodity. Let me explain how this can work, using an analogy.

Say you had all the skills and decided to design and build your dream house. You get a loan from the bank to buy the property and materials. You work hard over several years building your dream house. Once it is done, you still owe a lot of money to the bank and find that you cannot afford to pay it back. The bank will foreclose on your property. You will lose the fruit of all your labor, the bank gets your house, so it can sell the house and reimburse itself for the loan.

If we treated the college diploma and student loan, the same way as we treat the house and mortgage, if we paid off a student loan this would entitle the payer the student's diploma. The bank does not allow the home owner to keep the house if they default. The entity that now owns the diploma, would be able to sell it to recoup their expenses. This way you could buy a diploma, that has been repossessed, without having to go to college. Instead of victimizing the tax payer, this will be driven by free market supply and demand.

In the example of the man building his dream house, the new owner of his house who bought it from the banks, has bragging rights to the dream home, even though they did not do any of the work. All they did was get a loan and buy the house from the bank. The man who built the house, originally, has memories and experiences which are always his. He only lost the house. The same could be done with the diploma. The student who defaults may have done all the work for the diploma, but the other person gets to enjoy the dream diploma, simply by buying it in the diploma foreclosure market. They do it with houses.

Conceptually, rich people could go to diploma brokers, as a way to get ideal diplomas for their children at a birth. Why wait for talent to emerge and grow. Wouldn't it be nice to have a degree at 1 year old? That makes you look like a genius to your friends. Colleges may need to buy back foreclosed diplomas, so their degrees maintain value. Colleges have made out like a bandit, and this would level the field. Some forward thinking students may decide to get a loan for college diploma, in High School, then go work in the trades, so they can pay it off faster and still have a degree.

In the end, a diploma is a type of resume prop, to help one open doors to jobs and organizations. Why not make it a commodity and solve the student loan problem?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that all transcripts would also be sold with the diploma (the diploma itself is of little value and not generally accepted by employers).

The effect of this would be to make a college degree (as a credential, independent of any underlying skills learned during the process) per se worthless, which would remove the hyperinflated demand currently enjoyed by universities.
 
VanceMack said:
Someone on this site once suggested what i think is a GREAT idea. Tie the University to the borrower as a co-signer. If the student defaults, the University is on the hook for the loan and the University can then go after the student. BRILLIANT. The Universities have to go back to actually being selective about their student body again instead of admitting unqualified students and putting them on 6-8 year tracks to failure and a road that leads to nowhere.

Conversely...if there was an opportunity to subsidize tech schools and community colleges to help students become better qualified for a University education or qualified for life with a skill...that would be a great companion piece to the first.
Click to expand...

Your plan would not result in colleges picking the most talented and qualified candidates, it would result in them picking the richest, the ones who can pay out of pocket. The entire point of a student loan is to help those who are talented but cannot afford it. Why make it even harder for those people, by disincentivizing colleges to admit poor students?
 
Irredentist said:
Your plan would not result in colleges picking the most talented and qualified candidates, it would result in them picking the richest, the ones who can pay out of pocket. The entire point of a student loan is to help those who are talented but cannot afford it. Why make it even harder for those people, by disincentivizing colleges to admit poor students?
Click to expand...
No...the entire point of a student loan is to trap people in a 6 year road to nowhere and saddle them with debt in a program most of them aren't qualified enough to be in in the first damn place.

I disagree. Oh...sure..they WILL take in those that can pay out of pocket. But they will still actively recruit and seek QUALIFIED students AND they will stop offering worthless liberal arts degrees or ridiculous gender studies and other bull**** degrees that will not qualify 'graduates' for anything more than being bitter angry impotent social activists moving on to the next stage of their lives which entails finding someone ELSE to take care of them.
 
VanceMack said:
No...the entire point of a student loan is to trap people in a 6 year road to nowhere and saddle them with debt in a program most of them aren't qualified enough to be in in the first damn place.

I disagree. Oh...sure..they WILL take in those that can pay out of pocket. But they will still actively recruit and seek QUALIFIED students AND they will stop offering worthless liberal arts degrees or ridiculous gender studies and other bull**** degrees that will not qualify 'graduates' for anything more than being bitter angry impotent social activists moving on to the next stage of their lives which entails finding someone ELSE to take care of them.
Click to expand...

Of course, the education is irrelevant. Trap people in never ending loan payments is the goal. The demand for those who studied sociology or psychology in the job market can't be met, especially in advertising, the movie and TV industries, human resources both for private companies and necessary social services like hospital post op patient needs.... I could go on, but you get the gist by now. Oh, and an added kicker, those with liberal arts degrees tend to live longer, more satisfying lives. How weird is that?
 
VanceMack said:
No...the entire point of a student loan is to trap people in a 6 year road to nowhere and saddle them with debt in a program most of them aren't qualified enough to be in in the first damn place.

I disagree. Oh...sure..they WILL take in those that can pay out of pocket. But they will still actively recruit and seek QUALIFIED students AND they will stop offering worthless liberal arts degrees or ridiculous gender studies and other bull**** degrees that will not qualify 'graduates' for anything more than being bitter angry impotent social activists moving on to the next stage of their lives which entails finding someone ELSE to take care of them.
Click to expand...

Liberal arts degrees are not worthless. Liberal arts is the oldest form of higher education that exists. It's how all of the classic Greek philosophers and scientists were educated. You know, Plato, Aristotle, Eratosthenes? Liberal arts is the root from which all other western philosophies of learning have grown. Think about that before you ridicule it.

Another thing, top universities in this country aren't admitting chaff. They're highly competitive. Students have to contest those spots with the best and brightest not just from America but from around the world. Everyone wants to send their kids to university in the US.

But sure there are some "schools" that prey on the desperate. Like Trump University.
 
Irredentist said:
Liberal arts degrees are not worthless. Liberal arts is the oldest form of higher education that exists. It's how all of the classic Greek philosophers and scientists were educated. You know, Plato, Aristotle, Eratosthenes? Liberal arts is the root from which all other western philosophies of learning have grown. Think about that before you ridicule it.

Another thing, top universities in this country aren't admitting chaff. They're highly competitive. Students have to contest those spots with the best and brightest not just from America but from around the world. Everyone wants to send their kids to university in the US.

But sure there are some "schools" that prey on the desperate. Like Trump University.
Click to expand...
Yeah...I know all of that. Worthless. You can study all of those things in books and discussion forums. Going to a University to get a degree in Philosophy is worthless, unless you plan on teaching Philosophy in which case you should probably have had a major in education, or using that degree as a springboard for 'real' degree.

Most universities have lowered their educational standards and created non-credit remedial program classes for students unable to perform at college level. 1 in 5 college freshman today NEED remedial classes to be able to advance to credit seeking coursework.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Of course, the education is irrelevant. Trap people in never ending loan payments is the goal. The demand for those who studied sociology or psychology in the job market can't be met, especially in advertising, the movie and TV industries, human resources both for private companies and necessary social services like hospital post op patient needs.... I could go on, but you get the gist by now. Oh, and an added kicker, those with liberal arts degrees tend to live longer, more satisfying lives. How weird is that?
Click to expand...
If we want to get conspiratorial, you can see the pattern. Destroy the family, use the education system as a means of social indoctrination as opposed to actual education, send woefully unprepared students to colleges where they are indoctrinated for 6-8 years, saddle them with a mountain of debt (that they pay to the University), then have their University educators indoctrinate them with the notion that their debt and woes are all the evil bank and student lenders fault.
 
VanceMack said:
Yeah...I know all of that. Worthless. You can study all of those things in books and discussion forums. Going to a University to get a degree in Philosophy is worthless, unless you plan on teaching Philosophy in which case you should probably have had a major in education, or using that degree as a springboard for 'real' degree.

Most universities have lowered their educational standards and created non-credit remedial program classes for students unable to perform at college level. 1 in 5 college freshman today NEED remedial classes to be able to advance to credit seeking coursework.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you actually DON'T know all that. Because if you knew anything about liberal arts education you'd know that you don't just study philosophy, you study math, science, and literature as well. Ever heard of Isaac Newton? His degree was a masters in the arts. But hey, you can stick to learning everything from discussion forums. It worked out for you today at least, because you don't seem to read books either.
 
Irredentist said:
Yeah, you actually DON'T know all that. Because if you knew anything about liberal arts education you'd know that you don't just study philosophy, you study math, science, and literature as well. Ever heard of Isaac Newton? His degree was a masters in the arts. But hey, you can stick to learning everything from discussion forums. It worked out for you today at least, because you don't seem to read books either.
Click to expand...
I do know ALL of that...just as I know what degrees are considered worthless on the jobs market. As for studying philosophy...dood...within an arms reach I have a book shelf and among the 5 shelves of books (and 2 shelves of Hard Rock Cafe shot glasses) I have a well marked copy of Plato's Republic...I have Homer...I have Allens Greek Philosophers from Thales to Aristotle...I have books on eastern meditation and Shamanism...I can read philosophy any time I want. The question is not whether there is value in studying philosophy...the question is is there value in a Liberal Arts degree in Philosophy. Or art. Or Modern Dance.

And the answer is unless you are going to teach those classes...no.

We have graduated a generation of students that arent working in their degree fields and are saddled with a mountain of debt. The national average used to be about 10-15% of the population that had a 4 year degree...today its around 40%.
 
As a graduate of the liberal arts who stays in touch with a number of classmates, I can vouch that the majority of graduates either end up:
a) working in insurance
b) working in education
or
c) working at the college that they just graduated from


But I'd be interested in purchasing a lightly used Degree in Film Production, if anyone has some for sale.
 
VanceMack said:
I do know ALL of that...just as I know what degrees are considered worthless on the jobs market. As for studying philosophy...dood...within an arms reach I have a book shelf and among the 5 shelves of books (and 2 shelves of Hard Rock Cafe shot glasses) I have a well marked copy of Plato's Republic...I have Homer...I have Allens Greek Philosophers from Thales to Aristotle...I have books on eastern meditation and Shamanism...I can read philosophy any time I want. The question is not whether there is value in studying philosophy...the question is is there value in a Liberal Arts degree in Philosophy. Or art. Or Modern Dance.

And the answer is unless you are going to teach those classes...no.

We have graduated a generation of students that arent working in their degree fields and are saddled with a mountain of debt. The national average used to be about 10-15% of the population that had a 4 year degree...today its around 40%.
Click to expand...

This was never about the value of learning philosophy, of which there is plenty I might add. It's about the value of a liberal arts education. And seeing as how a liberal arts education doesn't need to be focused around studying philosophy at all, I'd say that your characterization of a liberal arts degree as worthless is bunk.
 
VanceMack said:
I do know ALL of that...just as I know what degrees are considered worthless on the jobs market. As for studying philosophy...dood...within an arms reach I have a book shelf and among the 5 shelves of books (and 2 shelves of Hard Rock Cafe shot glasses) I have a well marked copy of Plato's Republic...I have Homer...I have Allens Greek Philosophers from Thales to Aristotle...I have books on eastern meditation and Shamanism...I can read philosophy any time I want. The question is not whether there is value in studying philosophy...the question is is there value in a Liberal Arts degree in Philosophy. Or art. Or Modern Dance.

And the answer is unless you are going to teach those classes...no.

We have graduated a generation of students that arent working in their degree fields and are saddled with a mountain of debt. The national average used to be about 10-15% of the population that had a 4 year degree...today its around 40%.
Click to expand...

Mike Rowe is one of my go-tos on this issue. He's not strictly opposed to anyone getting a college education, he's opposed to the narrative that college is ALWAYS the right decision for EVERYONE, which just isn't true. "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts.”
 
NoMereRanger said:
Mike Rowe is one of my go-tos on this issue. He's not strictly opposed to anyone getting a college education, he's opposed to the narrative that college is ALWAYS the right decision for EVERYONE, which just isn't true. "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts.”
Click to expand...

Maybe education isn't strictly about training people for jobs? If America is expecting its citizens to be voting and participating members of society, shouldn't we be invested in their education, and want them to be informed and capable of critical thought, not to just accept whatever they are told?
 
Irredentist said:
Maybe education isn't strictly about training people for jobs? If America is expecting its citizens to be voting and participating members of society, shouldn't we be invested in their education, and want them to be informed and capable of critical thought, not to just accept whatever they are told?
Click to expand...
If someone convinced you you had to go 80k in debt to be an informed critical thinker...

it didnt work.
 
VanceMack said:
If someone convinced you you had to go 80k in debt to be an informed critical thinker...

it didnt work.
Click to expand...

Most people aren't 80k in debt to the department of education. Frankly you shouldn't have to go into debt at all. I think that all higher education as well as vocational training should be publicly funded for those with the interest and capability.
 
VanceMack said:
If we want to get conspiratorial, you can see the pattern. Destroy the family, use the education system as a means of social indoctrination as opposed to actual education, send woefully unprepared students to colleges where they are indoctrinated for 6-8 years, saddle them with a mountain of debt (that they pay to the University), then have their University educators indoctrinate them with the notion that their debt and woes are all the evil bank and student lenders fault.
Click to expand...

All four of my children graduated with liberal arts degrees. My oldest son went to medical school and then enlisted as an Army doctor, 3 tours of duty, resigning after his first wife passed, to care for his young children. My younger son picked up a masters in logistics from a well known business college, and enlisted serving 4 tours of duty. Both served in Iraq and Afghanistan. My older son heads a trauma team at a major hospital, my younger son, a CEO at a major and growing corporation. Both my daughters went on to nursing, also serving in the military, both became registered nurses, the older a nurse practitioner. All four went into debt for their educations, tho I would have easily and gladly covered the entire bill, their choices. All 4 married and I have sixteen grandchildren, one great grandchild, who's married mother is back in school for her liberal arts degree.

All 4 work today. They know they will inherit well, and have no financial need to work. They have all repaid their education loans. They are not an anomaly. They learned responsibility from their parents and living grandparents. They were not indoctrinated, they have their own minds, make their own decisions. We often do not agree on social and political views, but we all love and care for each other. I am thrilled with my grandchildren who are smarter than I am and was at their ages. They are extremely liberal for the most part, and idealistic. I am proud of all of them. Not all are going to college, but that is the aspiration of most. The others have already chosen other careers as skilled craftspeople. One as a cabinet maker, three as professional musicians. Those 4 are well on their way in their future professional careers. The one luxury they all enjoy is a loving supportive family.

You paint with a broad brush. Reality is a much more diverse story. Achievement is not embedded merely in education, or the type of degrees attained. It comes from personal choices and hard work. It must come from within. All our children are deserving of more credit than you give them. Even when they screw up. If we are fortunate, we learn from out mistakes. One person's mistake is another's stroke of good fortune. How many inventions and discoveries that changed our world for the better came from mistakes?
 
Irredentist said:
Most people aren't 80k in debt to the department of education. Frankly you shouldn't have to go into debt at all. I think that all higher education as well as vocational training should be publicly funded for those with the interest and capability.
Click to expand...
What you think is not reality...it’s just another brick in the wall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OldFatGuy said:
All four of my children graduated with liberal arts degrees. My oldest son went to medical school and then enlisted as an Army doctor, 3 tours of duty, resigning after his first wife passed, to care for his young children. My younger son picked up a masters in logistics from a well known business college, and enlisted serving 4 tours of duty. Both served in Iraq and Afghanistan. My older son heads a trauma team at a major hospital, my younger son, a CEO at a major and growing corporation. Both my daughters went on to nursing, also serving in the military, both became registered nurses, the older a nurse practitioner. All four went into debt for their educations, tho I would have easily and gladly covered the entire bill, their choices. All 4 married and I have sixteen grandchildren, one great grandchild, who's married mother is back in school for her liberal arts degree.

All 4 work today. They know they will inherit well, and have no financial need to work. They have all repaid their education loans. They are not an anomaly. They learned responsibility from their parents and living grandparents. They were not indoctrinated, they have their own minds, make their own decisions. We often do not agree on social and political views, but we all love and care for each other. I am thrilled with my grandchildren who are smarter than I am and was at their ages. They are extremely liberal for the most part, and idealistic. I am proud of all of them. Not all are going to college, but that is the aspiration of most. The others have already chosen other careers as skilled craftspeople. One as a cabinet maker, three as professional musicians. Those 4 are well on their way in their future professional careers. The one luxury they all enjoy is a loving supportive family.

You paint with a broad brush. Reality is a much more diverse story. Achievement is not embedded merely in education, or the type of degrees attained. It comes from personal choices and hard work. It must come from within. All our children are deserving of more credit than you give them. Even when they screw up. If we are fortunate, we learn from out mistakes. One person's mistake is another's stroke of good fortune. How many inventions and discoveries that changed our world for the better came from mistakes?
Click to expand...

Did you miss the part where I said that the liberal
Arts degree is worthless Unless you use it as a springboard for an advanced degree? Sounds like what your kids did. Good for them. They didn’t become doctors with a Liberal Arts degree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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