2018 Pisa Scores- USA 31st in the World for Education. Might IQ averages Explain Why?

I've read a fair bit about the results of the 2018 Pisa scores, which measure the capabilities of 15 year old students worldwide in reading, math & science. I've seen every imaginable excuse made for why the USA came in 31st in, while countries in Asia and Nordic countries took the top spots. Some experts blame unfair gender roles, some blame inequality in American schools- all the typical politically correct reasoning we've been conditioned to accept. I noticed something however that the paid experts missed: Pisa scores from 2015-2016 match up nicely with IQ averages. Rankings haven't changed much since then. For example:

Top 10 Countries for Highest IQ

1. Singapore (1st place Pisa)
2. Hong Kong( 2nd place Pisa)
3. Taiwan (6th place Pisa)
4. South Korea (9th place Pisa)
5. Japan (3rd place Pisa)
6. China (10th place Pisa)
7. Switzerland (15th place Pisa)
8. Netherlands (13th place Pisa)
9. North Korea (not available)
10. Macao (4th place Pisa)

The United Kingdom is 16th for IQ, 23rd for Pisa.
The USA is 27th in IQ, and 31st for Pisa.
Israel is 42nd in IQ, and 39th in Pisa.
---------------

Is it possible that educational experts are completely missing the role of IQ in predicting educational outcomes? I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.

IQ by Country

For me most interesting thing is that why Canada is much better than US ? Population in US is more diverse, schools are arranged differently and some other things? I'm a bit shocked about Sweden, I didn't know how much it's behind other Nordic countries.

Truth is that I'm worried about our education system here and reason is what I hear from teachers (I'm not talking with them on regular basis, but when I meet I'm always asking where we are at). Thing is that even teachers can't tell all the details about what's working and what's not (teachers have some 'artistic' freedom and some ideas are better than others, some are just worthless). One, what I heard so far from multiple teachers, is that relying heavily on technology isn't unambiguously good thing (as we should look closely learning process and all different aspects of it, how people learn and what kind of use of technology is working). Here many (if not all) get tablets or laptop from school now (maybe you knew it, it's also funded by taxation) - so when our performance is dropping like it is now, we should think what steps we're taking and what's the real effect - whatever it is, when it comes to learning process.

Personally I have to say that I'm not highly educated individual, most likely lower IQ Finn, so take - what I'm saying - with grain of salt. Like I'm not expert on this, just how I'm thinking just now.

truthatallcost said:

I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is indeed a taboo topic, so -- of course -- I will NOT state my opinion about its substance.

It is a subject that simply cannot be discussed in public because it is so hurtful.

Everyone has his/her own opinion that can be discussed only in private.

FinnFox said:

For me most interesting thing is that why Canada is much better than US ? Population in US is more diverse, schools are arranged differently and some other things? I'm a bit shocked about Sweden, I didn't know how much it's behind other Nordic countries.

Truth is that I'm worried about our education system here and reason is what I hear from teachers (I'm not talking with them on regular basis, but when I meet I'm always asking where we are at). Thing is that even teachers can't tell all the details about what's working and what's not (teachers have some 'artistic' freedom and some ideas are better than others, some are just worthless). One, what I heard so far from multiple teachers, is that relying heavily on technology isn't unambiguously good thing (as we should look closely learning process and all different aspects of it, how people learn and what kind of use of technology is working). Here many (if not all) get tablets or laptop from school now (maybe you knew it, it's also funded by taxation) - so when our performance is dropping like it is now, we should think what steps we're taking and what's the real effect - whatever it is, when it comes to learning process.

Personally I have to say that I'm not highly educated individual, most likely lower IQ Finn, so take - what I'm saying - with grain of salt. Like I'm not expert on this, just how I'm thinking just now.

Click to expand...

Who knows. One of the criticisms of these particular rankings is they use a lot of modeled data based on a comparatively small sample of students in a small sample of schools as opposed to a broad cross section.

It is 100% about our piss poor education system. IQ tests do not test your intrinsic intelligence independent of your education.

I can't believe the OP's argument is so stupid and America hating that he's actually claiming we're just intrinsically dumber than 30 other countries therefore we shouldn't try to improve our objectively sagging educational standards.

RabidAlpaca said:

It is 100% about our piss poor education system. IQ tests do not test your intrinsic intelligence independent of your education.

I can't believe the OP's argument is so stupid and America hating that he's actually claiming we're just intrinsically dumber than 30 other countries therefore we shouldn't try to improve our objectively sagging educational standards.

Click to expand...

Still, this might explain why the money we spend is high and the results we get are low.

If Americans are just plain stupid, this might explain why our test scores make us look like we are just plain stupid.

However, if we are not intrinsically more stupid than other populations, then the educational system inflicted upon our children needs to be examined because it is failing.

We are faced with a choice of issues to address:

Are Americans, as a population, just plain stupid or is our educational system based on failed ideas and processes and in dire need of repair?

Identifying the problem is first step to solving the problem. If we are just plain stupid, then we need to have a global Affirmative Action program that gives us favorable treatment worldwide.

I've seen every imaginable excuse made for why the USA came in 31st

Click to expand...

Now everybody just move along as fast as you can!!!!

TheParser said:

Yes, this is indeed a taboo topic, so -- of course -- I will NOT state my opinion about its substance.

It is a subject that simply cannot be discussed in public because it is so hurtful.

Everyone has his/her own opinion that can be discussed only in private.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Actually, I have no problem discussing it in the public school where I work at.


I'm a Firebrand

Nothing, and I mean nothing for the better will happen in politics until we first reform our very citizenry

code1211 said:

Still, this might explain why the money we spend is high and the results we get are low.

If Americans are just plain stupid, this might explain why our test scores make us look like we are just plain stupid.

However, if we are not intrinsically more stupid than other populations, then the educational system inflicted upon our children needs to be examined because it is failing.

We are faced with a choice of issues to address:

Are Americans, as a population, just plain stupid or is our educational system based on failed ideas and processes and in dire need of repair?

Identifying the problem is first step to solving the problem. If we are just plain stupid, then we need to have a global Affirmative Action program that gives us favorable treatment worldwide.

Click to expand...

I reject your hatred of America and Americans. Spending a lot of money does not mean it's being spent effectively. It seems like you're a contributor to the problem.

truthatallcost said:

I've read a fair bit about the results of the 2018 Pisa scores, which measure the capabilities of 15 year old students worldwide in reading, math & science. I've seen every imaginable excuse made for why the USA came in 31st in, while countries in Asia and Nordic countries took the top spots. Some experts blame unfair gender roles, some blame inequality in American schools- all the typical politically correct reasoning we've been conditioned to accept. I noticed something however that the paid experts missed: Pisa scores from 2015-2016 match up nicely with IQ averages. Rankings haven't changed much since then. For example:

Top 10 Countries for Highest IQ

1. Singapore (1st place Pisa)
2. Hong Kong( 2nd place Pisa)
3. Taiwan (6th place Pisa)
4. South Korea (9th place Pisa)
5. Japan (3rd place Pisa)
6. China (10th place Pisa)
7. Switzerland (15th place Pisa)
8. Netherlands (13th place Pisa)
9. North Korea (not available)
10. Macao (4th place Pisa)

The United Kingdom is 16th for IQ, 23rd for Pisa.
The USA is 27th in IQ, and 31st for Pisa.
Israel is 42nd in IQ, and 39th in Pisa.
---------------

Is it possible that educational experts are completely missing the role of IQ in predicting educational outcomes? I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.

IQ by Country

Click to expand...

My son spent a year in South Korea teaching English to young SK students. The culture of SK is based on education. Student attend class 12 hours a day. Public in the morning, private for the rest of the day, into the evening. They attend classes on Saturday.

It's obvious that is not the case in the United States.

It's all about the college entrance exams. So, what impact does family and culture have on IQ, and/or capabilities in 15 year olds?

Luther said:

Actually, I have no problem discussing it in the public school where I work at.

Click to expand...

1. I commend you for your courage.

2. I notice you are in Idaho.

3. Here in Los Angeles (and other liberal bastions), one who fully discussed all aspects of this topic would not last more than one day as a teacher.

*****

I have read that if (IF) scientists ever "proved" that there is a difference in IQs between various groups, this news would have to be kept a secret, lest it provoke domestic unrest.

Some topics are simply too hurtful to discuss in public.

RabidAlpaca said:

I reject your hatred of America and Americans. Spending a lot of money does not mean it's being spent effectively. It seems like you're a contributor to the problem.

Click to expand...

You don't understand concern so you label it hate. That is a great way to avoid action and maintain substandard results.

What do you feel is the issue that needs to be addressed to improve the education of American children?

Do you feel that there is a way to improve the outcomes?

What first step do you recommend?

truthatallcost said:

I've read a fair bit about the results of the 2018 Pisa scores, which measure the capabilities of 15 year old students worldwide in reading, math & science. I've seen every imaginable excuse made for why the USA came in 31st in, while countries in Asia and Nordic countries took the top spots. Some experts blame unfair gender roles, some blame inequality in American schools- all the typical politically correct reasoning we've been conditioned to accept. I noticed something however that the paid experts missed: Pisa scores from 2015-2016 match up nicely with IQ averages. Rankings haven't changed much since then. For example:

Top 10 Countries for Highest IQ

1. Singapore (1st place Pisa)
2. Hong Kong( 2nd place Pisa)
3. Taiwan (6th place Pisa)
4. South Korea (9th place Pisa)
5. Japan (3rd place Pisa)
6. China (10th place Pisa)
7. Switzerland (15th place Pisa)
8. Netherlands (13th place Pisa)
9. North Korea (not available)
10. Macao (4th place Pisa)

The United Kingdom is 16th for IQ, 23rd for Pisa.
The USA is 27th in IQ, and 31st for Pisa.
Israel is 42nd in IQ, and 39th in Pisa.
---------------

Is it possible that educational experts are completely missing the role of IQ in predicting educational outcomes? I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.

IQ by Country

Click to expand...

“Is it possible that educational experts are completely missing the role of IQ in predicting educational outcomes? I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.”

Besides math, reading and science, PISA also tests for problem solving and literacy.

The first two links below give a great deal more information to better understand all that is PISA, which uses a fluid, indefinite methodology. Suspicious, to say the least, and hard to conclude it is statistically valid.

The last link is a short read, criticizing PISA.

Nothing wrong with discussing concerns over US education system. But using PISA as evidence of fact to support a discussion on US education thinly veiling the OP real point, the discredited relationship to IQ and “taboo” differences therein, is simply disingenuous.

The Pisa methodology: do its education claims stack up? | News | The Guardian

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia

Statistical criticism:

Researchers demonstrate poor methodology behind PISA studies – University of Copenhagen

FinnFox said:

For me most interesting thing is that why Canada is much better than US ? Population in US is more diverse, schools are arranged differently and some other things? I'm a bit shocked about Sweden, I didn't know how much it's behind other Nordic countries.

Truth is that I'm worried about our education system here and reason is what I hear from teachers (I'm not talking with them on regular basis, but when I meet I'm always asking where we are at). Thing is that even teachers can't tell all the details about what's working and what's not (teachers have some 'artistic' freedom and some ideas are better than others, some are just worthless). One, what I heard so far from multiple teachers, is that relying heavily on technology isn't unambiguously good thing (as we should look closely learning process and all different aspects of it, how people learn and what kind of use of technology is working). Here many (if not all) get tablets or laptop from school now (maybe you knew it, it's also funded by taxation) - so when our performance is dropping like it is now, we should think what steps we're taking and what's the real effect - whatever it is, when it comes to learning process.

Personally I have to say that I'm not highly educated individual, most likely lower IQ Finn, so take - what I'm saying - with grain of salt. Like I'm not expert on this, just how I'm thinking just now.

Click to expand...

A couple differences between Canada and the US

School sports the US placed a very high importance on it. They are very low in importance in Canada. Making it more òf a place to learn rather than play.

School funding is done more on A state level rather than local. Ensuring general quality of the schools rather than some really well funded and some poorly funded schools.

Now if this was a recent trend I would have included immigration policy but Canada has been high on this for decades.

FinnFox said:

For me most interesting thing is that why Canada is much better than US ? Population in US is more diverse, schools are arranged differently and some other things? I'm a bit shocked about Sweden, I didn't know how much it's behind other Nordic countries.

Truth is that I'm worried about our education system here and reason is what I hear from teachers (I'm not talking with them on regular basis, but when I meet I'm always asking where we are at). Thing is that even teachers can't tell all the details about what's working and what's not (teachers have some 'artistic' freedom and some ideas are better than others, some are just worthless). One, what I heard so far from multiple teachers, is that relying heavily on technology isn't unambiguously good thing (as we should look closely learning process and all different aspects of it, how people learn and what kind of use of technology is working). Here many (if not all) get tablets or laptop from school now (maybe you knew it, it's also funded by taxation) - so when our performance is dropping like it is now, we should think what steps we're taking and what's the real effect - whatever it is, when it comes to learning process.

Personally I have to say that I'm not highly educated individual, most likely lower IQ Finn, so take - what I'm saying - with grain of salt. Like I'm not expert on this, just how I'm thinking just now.

Click to expand...

Our poor Swedish levels are the result of two things. Mass immigration from places like Somalia and Afghanistan and the teaching profession being taken over by the left who enforce 'progressive' teaching methods.

code1211 said:

Still, this might explain why the money we spend is high and the results we get are low.

If Americans are just plain stupid, this might explain why our test scores make us look like we are just plain stupid.

However, if we are not intrinsically more stupid than other populations, then the educational system inflicted upon our children needs to be examined because it is failing.

We are faced with a choice of issues to address:

Are Americans, as a population, just plain stupid or is our educational system based on failed ideas and processes and in dire need of repair?

Identifying the problem is first step to solving the problem. If we are just plain stupid, then we need to have a global Affirmative Action program that gives us favorable treatment worldwide.

Click to expand...

As a non Yank I would say that Americans are not more stupid - just less intelligent. If you require evidence look at the large numbers of Creationists in the US, a sub-species all but extinct elsewhere in the civilised world.

truthatallcost said:

I've read a fair bit about the results of the 2018 Pisa scores, which measure the capabilities of 15 year old students worldwide in reading, math & science. I noticed something Pisa scores from 2015-2016 match up nicely with IQ averages. For example:

Top 10 Countries for Highest IQ

1. Singapore (1st place Pisa)
2. Hong Kong( 2nd place Pisa)
3. Taiwan (6th place Pisa)
4. South Korea (9th place Pisa)
5. Japan (3rd place Pisa)
6. China (10th place Pisa)
7. Switzerland (15th place Pisa)
8. Netherlands (13th place Pisa)
9. North Korea (not available)
10. Macao (4th place Pisa)

The United Kingdom is 16th for IQ, 23rd for Pisa.
The USA is 27th in IQ, and 31st for Pisa.
Israel is 42nd in IQ, and 39th in Pisa.
---------------

Is it possible that educational experts are completely missing the role of IQ in predicting educational outcomes? I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.

Click to expand...

PISA does not measure capability it measures acheivement in three school subjects.

The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a worldwide study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in member and non-member nations intended to evaluate educational systems by measuring 15-year-old school pupils' scholastic performance on mathematics, science, and reading (from Wikipedia)

It is not a coincidence that acheivement test scores are similar to IQ test scores. The construction, questions and scoring method of the two types of tests are almost exactly the same so the results will be similar if not identical.

IQ scores emphasize and test for acheivement in Western style education and leave out a significant number no less important types of intelligence: athletic, artistic, musical, mechanical, social.

Additionally, there are problems with PISA itself. "To carry out Pisa and a host of follow-up services, OECD has embraced "public-private partnerships" and entered into alliances with multi-national for-profit companies, which stand to gain financially from any deficits—real or perceived—unearthed by Pisa. Some of these companies provide educational services to American schools and school districts on a massive, for-profit basis, while also pursuing plans to develop for-profit elementary education in Africa, where OECD is now planning to introduce the Pisa programme."
(from public letter to PISA directors)

If your interest in ranking countries is simply IQ and or scholastic achievement PISA is handy, well organized and mostly accurate. If your interest is in understanding each countries spending on education as it relates to achievement rank or whether the citizens of a country are happy, well adjusted, healthy and satisfied that their government is working the PISA information is not helpful

What information are you seeking? Hopefully you are not into the recently re-popularized theme that race it tied to IQ. If that is your point consider how Israel's achievement and IQ fits into this scheme.

code1211 said:

You don't understand concern so you label it hate. That is a great way to avoid action and maintain substandard results.
What do you feel is the issue that needs to be addressed to improve the education of American children?
Do you feel that there is a way to improve the outcomes?
What first step do you recommend?

Click to expand...

You're not showing concern, you're just arguing that Americans are intrinsically dumber than people from other countries and that's why we're under performing. You're doing anything you can to refuse to acknowledge that it might be our fault. That's not concern, it's utter neglect.

Raising the bar for who can be a teacher and what they're paid would be a starter. The quality of the teachers often define the quality of the education. Work on reducing the tremendous disparity in education quality between rural and city schools. Putting more value on math, science and engineering because it's the future and other countries are starting to crush us in it. A college system based on merit instead of who's mommy and daddy have more money.

truthatallcost said:

~................... natural differences in IQ, ...........~

Click to expand...

Leaving aside all the rest, can you explain natural differences in IQ (IOW where those can be found)?

Because your link on IQ leads nowhere in that respect.

Drawdown said:

Who knows. One of the criticisms of these particular rankings is they use a lot of modeled data based on a comparatively small sample of students in a small sample of schools as opposed to a broad cross section.

Click to expand...

They never ask me about my shorts er smarts...But hey we are the richest nation so we don't have to be the smartest.

Moonglow said:

They never ask me about my shorts er smarts...But hey we are the richest nation so we don't have to be the smartest.

Click to expand...

That we lead the world in advancement is not due to H1B workers and green card holders. Another of the criticisms with this ranking in particular is that the curriculum in America runs at a different pace than some of these countries where people often matriculate at 16 instead of 18 so our students are just starting to deep dive into say geometry or trig at that age and those students have already had what they are going to get in the way of math education. I read that last time england did very poorly on reading and the targeted test students in the schools tested weren't even given a reading examination. Their reading skills were inferred from their performance on the math and science tests they did take.

RabidAlpaca said:

It is 100% about our piss poor education system. IQ tests do not test your intrinsic intelligence independent of your education.

I can't believe the OP's argument is so stupid and America hating that he's actually claiming we're just intrinsically dumber than 30 other countries therefore we shouldn't try to improve our objectively sagging educational standards.

Click to expand...

How much money do we spend per student compared to other countries?

truthatallcost said:

I've read a fair bit about the results of the 2018 Pisa scores, which measure the capabilities of 15 year old students worldwide in reading, math & science. I've seen every imaginable excuse made for why the USA came in 31st in, while countries in Asia and Nordic countries took the top spots. Some experts blame unfair gender roles, some blame inequality in American schools- all the typical politically correct reasoning we've been conditioned to accept. I noticed something however that the paid experts missed: Pisa scores from 2015-2016 match up nicely with IQ averages. Rankings haven't changed much since then. For example:

Top 10 Countries for Highest IQ

1. Singapore (1st place Pisa)
2. Hong Kong( 2nd place Pisa)
3. Taiwan (6th place Pisa)
4. South Korea (9th place Pisa)
5. Japan (3rd place Pisa)
6. China (10th place Pisa)
7. Switzerland (15th place Pisa)
8. Netherlands (13th place Pisa)
9. North Korea (not available)
10. Macao (4th place Pisa)

The United Kingdom is 16th for IQ, 23rd for Pisa.
The USA is 27th in IQ, and 31st for Pisa.
Israel is 42nd in IQ, and 39th in Pisa.
---------------

Is it possible that educational experts are completely missing the role of IQ in predicting educational outcomes? I think its very likely, especially given the 'taboo' nature of discussing natural differences in IQ, which prevents just about everyone from even considering it as a factor.

IQ by Country

Click to expand...

If our education is so bad, why do so many students from around the world want to study here?

Drawdown said:

Who knows. One of the criticisms of these particular rankings is they use a lot of modeled data based on a comparatively small sample of students in a small sample of schools as opposed to a broad cross section.

Click to expand...

I understand that is one of the many criticisms of Pisa, yet I would offer the fact that the same Asian countries top the list year after year, as well as a few Nordic countries. I hear just about everyone griping about Americans becoming dumber, regardless of political affiliation. So it's something that people are intuitively grasping, and data seems to validate. America was 1st in high school graduation rates, and near the top in college graduates only 40-50 years ago, and that too has fallen.

U.S. Education Slipping in Ranks Worldwide, Earns Poor Grades on CFR Scorecard | Council on Foreign Relations

Outlook said:

If our education is so bad, why do so many students from around the world want to study here?

Click to expand...

For a variety of reasons. The Chinese believe that American schools are better than Chinese schools, and that their children will have an advantage in the job market if they are familiar with American culture. The Chinese government helps fund Chinese students who study abroad, because it can be beneficial strategically. At the collegiate level, American universities carry prestige and respect worldwide. A degree from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford will get you in the door faster than a degree from many foreign colleges.