Students...

HIP56948 said:

Damn, that's some heavy stuff. My heart goes out to these teachers that have to put up with this Bullsh*t. This crosses all political boundaries. I don't know specifically what the answer might be but something has to be done. This can-not-continue or one day soon we'll hear about a teacher that goes completely berserk and does the unthinkable. I know one damn thing. There's more than just this poster (on this board) that would turn down a job offer to teach. Not because of the work but afraid of what we might do. Even calm, easy-going people can be pushed far enough to finally think "F*ck this Sh*t..it's payback time." I certainly don't want to go to that place...

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Let me begin by expressing some appreciation for the sobriety of your comment, specifically for including this segment. I have been going through some work on social issues as they have manifested themselves in recent years. Some of it involves digging through events that happened in the media, on social media or on college campuses. Most of it involves very swift and harsh reactions, more often than not accompanied by explicit comments that the people involved are not interested in either discussions or facts. It would go otherwise unnoticed, but drawing a large enough circle to include everyone in a discussion is the noble thing to do.

It's also very true that there is something troubling about the depth of the problems at this school. At first, I was certain that she was catastrophizing and exaggerating. I've heard too many people call into question their safety over the political opinion of someone else to take it seriously when someone weaves verbal abuses into a discussion about safety. Then, she says one of her coworkers got hospitalized because of a fight between students. At that point, I began to wonder whether what she couldn't bring herself to repeat involved more than just foul language but perhaps even threats -- and it turned out later that some of it actually involves threats of a terrorist attack. Then, you learn that when she talked about sexual harassment, it's not a farce either. The list of her grievances includes assault, humiliation, voyeurism, exhibitionism, theft, torture, larceny and kids bringing in weapons...


I agree with you. It absolutely could drive anyone to do something that can't be fixed.

Bodhisattva said:

I was referring to education in Western Countries... not just here or the USA, in which I have taught in both.

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Certainly your education as taught you the variance of problems associated with a nation of 325M people and one with only 2/3s the population of NYC as New Zealand has.

Cynical said:

As someone who has been in education this is by no means indicative of all schools or even most schools (and believe me there is plenty wrong with public education). Also keep in mind this as far as I could tell was a school for "at risk" student population. Those are kids with many serious problems.

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I have been a teacher for about 20 years in both public and private education in two different US states and into different countries. One of the most basic and severe problems is student behaviour including poor parenting and not backing up teachers full stop this also includes administration not backing up teachers and having their hands tied with obstinate parents and potential litigation. This is an issue in most public schools.

Rising Sun said:

Certainly your education as taught you the variance of problems associated with a nation of 325M people and one with only 2/3s the population of NYC as New Zealand has.

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In fact it is the opposite . my experience has shown me that the problems facing education are almost universal. We have teachers at my school from Japan France South Africa England the United States Canada Colombia Wales Scotland Russia and France... and that is all I am sure of. We pretty much all agree that population size is a relevant to the issue of student behaviour problems.

Bodhisattva said:

I have been a teacher for about 20 years in both public and private education in two different US states and into different countries. One of the most basic and severe problems is student behaviour including poor parenting and not backing up teachers full stop this also includes administration not backing up teachers and having their hands tied with obstinate parents and potential litigation. This is an issue in most public schools.

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I 100% percent agree that the quality of the parents is the #1 factor for what makes a quality school and quality students.

Bodhisattva said:

In fact it is the opposite . my experience has shown me that the problems facing education are almost universal. We have teachers at my school from Japan France South Africa England the United States Canada Colombia Wales Scotland Russia and France... and that is all I am sure of. We pretty much all agree that population size is a relevant to the issue of student behaviour problems.

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Since they are all human students, the range of behaviors would be the same, but there are obviously different problems associated with over-crowded vs. properly staffed schools and high-crime vs. low-crime schools.

The United States has among the best schools in the nation. The problem is that 92% of school funding is state or local so that a school in Beverly Hills hands out iPads to each student while a school in Monroe, LA is the worst school in the USA: The 20 Worst High Schools in America in 2019

As a self-proclaimed teacher you should know this, but you either do not or you are refusing to admit it.

TheParser said:

Bingo!

P.S. Please, if one of your loved ones is thinking of becoming a public school teacher, advise him/her against such a decision.

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I would love to know how many (if any for that matter) children or grandchildren of liberal politicians become public school teachers?

Cynical said:

I would love to know how many (if any for that matter) children or grandchildren of liberal politicians become public school teachers?

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Excellent point!

They are smart enough not to make such a mistake.

One of our mayors here in Los Angeles said that he was thinking about teaching public school after he left office.

I could not stop laughing.

He would not have lasted a whole day in some of our tougher schools. He would have run out of the room screaming.

I do wish these politicians and "celebrities" would have the decency to keep their mouths shut.

Lack of money is NOT the problem here in California. It's the students and their parents.



Have a nice weekend!

TheParser said:

Bingo!

In American public schools that want federal aid (and what district does not want it?), it is illegal to suspend students for defiance. This decision was made by the former administration because activists said that two certain groups were being singled out for punishment.

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Yeah, that will be a problem and likely to happen in a country as racist as the USA. Particularly in regards to black children attending all white schools. This isn't ancient history, this happened in my life time.

Here are some likely parents of Trump's "very fine people:"




Here's your Evangelical Christians, using their holy book to justify hating children: "God is the author of segregation"

TheParser said:

Lack of money is NOT the problem here in California. It's the students and their parents.

Have a nice weekend!

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Actually the problem seems to be "Americans", because your public education sucks across the nation. Say, you're an American aren't you?

JustHanging said:

Actually the problem seems to be "Americans", because your public education sucks across the nation. Say, you're an American aren't you?

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Thanks for your opinion. My opinion is that it is NOT public education that s*cks. It's the students.

Yes, I am an American. Not everyone is lucky enough to be born in, say, Norway or Japan.



Have a nice weekend!

TheParser said:

Thanks for your opinion. My opinion is that it is NOT public education that s*cks. It's the students.

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Last time I checked American students are...."Americans". Almost all raised by "Americans," with "American" attitudes.

Seems like I'm exactly right, the problem is Americans. And you are an American. Instead of whinging and blaming others, take some personal responsibility.

Yes, I am an American. Not everyone is lucky enough to be born in, say, Norway or Japan.

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What makes you think you wouldn't be an outcast in those societies as well? Just because there aren't as many brown skinned people?

JustHanging said:

Last time I checked American students are...."Americans". Almost all raised by "Americans," with "American" attitudes.

Seems like I'm exactly right, the problem is Americans. And you are an American. Instead of whinging and blaming others, take some personal responsibility.



What makes you think you wouldn't be an outcast in those societies as well? Just because there aren't as many brown skinned people?

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Although I do not understand what you are trying to say, I thank you for your "interesting" comments and wish you the very best of luck.

JustHanging said:

Yeah, that will be a problem and likely to happen in a country as racist as the USA.

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The United States is very far from being a racist country. The Civil Rights movement won the battle over legislation in the 1960s. And if you have in mind some kind of effort to compensate people for past injustices, the first affirmative action programs were put in place in 1971. Ample welfare programs were put in place in the 1960s to support poor people of all backgrounds. Approbation for interracial relationships and marriage used to be in the low 40% in the 1970s. These questions are used as an example of things surveys in the United States no longer ask because the last few data points taken years ago showed approval ratings in the high 90%. It's also a country that largely cheered for Obama in 2008 and 2012. If I am not mistaken, he won the popular vote and I know for a fact he carried some states in 2012 that have been carried by Trump in 2016.

You're calling the USA racist, but it's never been less racist than it is today. I cannot even think of a single thing a white man once did in the US that a person of another ethnic group could not do. And, right there, you have the problem with your attitude. You have to contend with a fact as cold and hard as the pavement of a street in winter: people of color, women, gay people, and other historically marginalized groups have done virtually everything you can think about in the US.

Just ponder the fact that Barack Obama was more widely loved than Donald Trump... Also ponder the fact that people who disliked Obama called him a communist and had fits over his policies, his comments, and his ideas... The US is so discriminatory -- you know, except when you compare it to itself 40 years ago, and 90% of the rest of the world.

JustHanging said:

Particularly in regards to black children attending all-white schools. This isn't ancient history, this happened in my life time.

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Yes, 50 or 60 years ago, a significant minority of the US population was mad at integration.

JustHanging said:

Here are some likely parents of Trump's "very fine people"

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Let's see what Trump actually said about neo-Nazis and white supremacists:


He unequivocally attacked them for being evil. Unlike the story that ran in the media which put words in his mouth and rested on a guess about what he meant, this is what he said. Verbatim.


And here is a clue that Donald Trump couldn't have called neo-Nazis "very fine" people: he said there were very fine people on both sides. If he was talking about the neo-Nazis, that means he would have said that Antifa members are "very fine" people? That's just impossible. When he said there were fine people, he was talking about the peaceful groups of people who debated about keeping or removing statues.

That was the reasonable thing to do as a president: saying that both sides had good points and toning down the rhetoric on both sides about the other side being evil. For once, he wasn't making a complete a** of himself, throwing oil on the fire. Nonetheless, the media did the throwing. They took some of his words, completely out of context and painted him as saying something when he said the exact opposite verbatim. If there was justice in the world, those journalists would lose their job. The political bias in the media is blatant -- and I talk as someone who (1) doesn't especially like Trump and (2) loved Obama, both as a person and as a leader.

Cynical said:

I 100% percent agree that the quality of the parents is the #1 factor for what makes a quality school and quality students.

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It's a complicated issue.

Even as a matter of policy, you might want to think about the fact that some children and later teenagers might experience a tough environment at home. Returns to education can be significant, especially at younger ages. Specifically, kindergarten and elementary school will get you a bigger bang for your buck than investment in undergraduate degrees from the point of view of a government. Education is also often seen as a vehicle of upward social mobility, as a means of potentially compensating for social and financial problems that might plague some groups of people more than others. Here, I think you can get a lot of support on both sides of the aisle as there actually is a deep-seated agreement over the idea of enabling less fortunate people to have a fighting chance. Nobody wants a kid from a poorer background to be so penalized by the lottery of birth that there is no hope of making a life for themselves if they work hard.

The problem with your comment is that it might be largely true. People who grow up with both parents tend to do better than all others, in spite of the existing efforts in the US, Canada, or most of Europe to give a leg up to kids who are less fortunate. I'm sure you have in mind things like it's better to have a stable family environment, live in a neighborhood where crime isn't rampant, grow up to law-abiding parents, or even have parents who instill enough discipline on their children that they themselves respect the rules most of the time. We can also think about parental engagement in the community as there probably are places where parents actively participate in the school life and communal life of their neighborhoods and places where parents do none of that.

Those last possibilities might be sensible guesses, but they also exist in a field of political landmines. Can you really think through issues related to parenthood in black-majority neighborhoods? The activists on those issues might be convinced they're doing some good work, but attacking people left and right over presumed "racism" is only making the issue radioactive. You cannot afford to think out loud on the issue because being wrong can lead to incommensurably large consequences. In fact, you would be no safer with the truth on your side. A lot of zealots decided what answers we cannot give before we even started... and everyone is paying the price for it, not least the people who we might be able to help, but won't because who the hell wants to risk that level of ire and hatred?

Rising Sun said:

Since they are all human students, the range of behaviors would be the same, but there are obviously different problems associated with over-crowded vs. properly staffed schools and high-crime vs. low-crime schools.

The United States has among the best schools in the nation. The problem is that 92% of school funding is state or local so that a school in Beverly Hills hands out iPads to each student while a school in Monroe, LA is the worst school in the USA: The 20 Worst High Schools in America in 2019

As a self-proclaimed teacher you should know this, but you either do not or you are refusing to admit it.

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uhhh,.,.. what? Nothing you said even comes close to relating to what I said.

Bodhisattva said:

uhhh,.,.. what? Nothing you said even comes close to relating to what I said.

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Then don't worry about it, mate.

Rising Sun said:

Then don't worry about it, mate.

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I will continue not worrying...

Bodhisattva said:

The problem with the school system is not the teacher nor the system... it is letting the kids get away with stuff while the administration does little to nothing about it.

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With what kind of stuff?

Rumpel said:

With what kind of stuff?

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bad behavior kind of stuff...

Cynical said:

I 100% percent agree that the quality of the parents is the #1 factor for what makes a quality school and quality students.

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Imagine, if you will, any other government agency (including a human service agency) that would get away with the expectation that it’s not its funding, procedures, and staff that make the difference, but the quality of citizen receiving their services.

Education is a unique beast, don’t get me wrong, but this is a really poor way to think of it.


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Fiddytree said:

Imagine, if you will, any other government agency (including a human service agency) that would get away with the expectation that it’s not its funding, procedures, and staff that make the difference, but the quality of citizen receiving their services.

Education is a unique beast, don’t get me wrong, but this is a really poor way to think of it.


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I'm not claiming that they should. I'm simply stating what is an established fact, ask any teacher.

Fiddytree said:

Imagine, if you will, any other government agency (including a human service agency) that would get away with the expectation that it’s not its funding, procedures, and staff that make the difference, but the quality of citizen receiving their services.

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Generally speaking, it's not a very good idea to ask people who are very remote from a situation and who will not suffer most of the consequences of a stupid choice make choices on behalf of the people who will. They're neither as informed, nor as motivated to get things right.

The absolute most stupid thing you can possibly do is to settle a dispute on education in Washington among politicians who might not even send their kids to a public school, let alone send them to a bad public school. On the face of it, it is completely and utterly absurd. They don't know what is going on. Even if they tried to know, they'd get second hand, high level information at a high cost. And why the hell would they care if they make a mess? Most of it will be visible long after their term ends and, again, it's not like they have a personal stake in improving things fast: they can afford to send their kids to better schools.

Without changing a dime in the budget at the federal and state level, just gutting the capacity of politicians and bureaucrats to control what is going on for the benefit of school administrations, teachers and parents might improve things. After all, they're the ones closest to the problems and they're the ones suffering most of the consequences of bad choices.