Ohio lawmakers clear bill critics say could expand religion in public schools

Somerville · Nov 16, 2019

Does "religious freedom" mean parents can now tell their kids to only provide answers to questions in History, Biology and Science classes that conform with their specific church's beliefs?

Ohio lawmakers clear bill critics say could expand religion in public schools

COLUMBUS, Ohio – The Ohio House sent to the Senate on Wednesday a measure that would prohibit public schools from penalizing students for some work that contains religious beliefs.
(. . .)
The bill

HB 164, known as the Ohio Student Religious Liberties Act of 2019:

Requires public schools to give students the same access to facilities if they want to meet for religious expression as they’d give secular groups.
Removes a provision that allows school districts to limit religious expression to lunch periods or other non-instructional times.
Allows students to engage in religious expression before, during and after school hours to the same extent as a student in secular activities or expression.
Prohibits schools from restricting a student from engaging in religious expression in completion of homework, artwork and other assignments.

The one question that always seems be in the forefront has to do with the Theory of Evolution in opposition to Creationism, but there are also questions in Ancient History where the best answer may contradict a Biblical tale. The story of a world-wide flood might also come up in a Science class discussion of geology. Should fundamentalist Christians and Muslim kids be taught only "Readin', Writin' and 'Rithmetic", because other subjects might give said kids a different world view than that they are taught at home?

j brown's body · Nov 16, 2019

Making America great again!

OrphanSlug · Nov 16, 2019

The right wing driven dumbing down of America continues...

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

Somerville said:
Does "religious freedom" mean parents can now tell their kids to only provide answers to questions in History, Biology and Science classes that conform with their specific church's beliefs?

The one question that always seems be in the forefront has to do with the Theory of Evolution in opposition to Creationism, but there are also questions in Ancient History where the best answer may contradict a Biblical tale. The story of a world-wide flood might also come up in a Science class discussion of geology. Should fundamentalist Christians and Muslim kids be taught only "Readin', Writin' and 'Rithmetic", because other subjects might give said kids a different world view than that they are taught at home?

1. Nothing you listed in the quoted section seems like anything but fairly restrained common sense. Basically, schools cannot discriminate against students or activities because they are religious. That's in line with the 1st Amendment.

2. If you don't like the possibility that your child may interact with students who believe differently than you at school, please join me in advocating for School Choice, so that you will have the freedom to send your child to a school system that better reflects your values.

Drawdown · Nov 16, 2019

Somerville said:
Does "religious freedom" mean parents can now tell their kids to only provide answers to questions in History, Biology and Science classes that conform with their specific church's beliefs?

The one question that always seems be in the forefront has to do with the Theory of Evolution in opposition to Creationism, but there are also questions in Ancient History where the best answer may contradict a Biblical tale. The story of a world-wide flood might also come up in a Science class discussion of geology. Should fundamentalist Christians and Muslim kids be taught only "Readin', Writin' and 'Rithmetic", because other subjects might give said kids a different world view than that they are taught at home?

"Nor prohibit the free exercise thereof..."

OrphanSlug · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
1. Nothing you listed in the quoted section seems like anything but fairly restrained common sense. Basically, schools cannot discriminate against students or activities because they are religious. That's in line with the 1st Amendment.

2. If you don't like the possibility that your child may interact with students who believe differently than you at school, please join me in advocating for School Choice, so that you will have the freedom to send your child to a school system that better reflects your values.

That is not at all what this bill really does, please read the bill itself.

House Bill 164 | The Ohio Legislature

(Fair warning, the "View Current Version" link on that page downloads a PDF of the current bill under consideration.)

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

OrphanSlug said:
That is not at all what this bill really does,

Possible, which is why I caveated with "in the quoted section", namely:

Requires public schools to give students the same access to facilities if they want to meet for religious expression as they’d give secular groups.
Removes a provision that allows school districts to limit religious expression to lunch periods or other non-instructional times.
Allows students to engage in religious expression before, during and after school hours to the same extent as a student in secular activities or expression.
Prohibits schools from restricting a student from engaging in religious expression in completion of homework, artwork and other assignments.

please read the bill itself.

House Bill 164 | The Ohio Legislature

(Fair warning, the "View Current Version" link on that page downloads a PDF of the current bill under consideration.)

Thank you for the link, but, this appears to pretty well match the OP. What do you think it is missing?

OrphanSlug · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
Possible, which is why I caveated with "in the quoted section", namely:

Requires public schools to give students the same access to facilities if they want to meet for religious expression as they’d give secular groups.
Removes a provision that allows school districts to limit religious expression to lunch periods or other non-instructional times.
Allows students to engage in religious expression before, during and after school hours to the same extent as a student in secular activities or expression.
Prohibits schools from restricting a student from engaging in religious expression in completion of homework, artwork and other assignments.

That part does not concern me near as much as Sec. 3320.03...

"No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the
completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work."

This traps educators where they cannot "penalize or reward" a student responding to a science assignment with religious based response, like the evolution vs. creationism (especially young earth creationism) debate.

cpwill said:
Thank you for the link, but, this appears to pretty well match the OP. What do you think it is missing?

All of the text and the references to existing legislation that is replaced / updated (adds to context.)

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

OrphanSlug said:
That part does not concern me near as much as Sec. 3320.03...

"No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the
completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work."

This traps educators where they cannot "penalize or reward" a student responding to a science assignment with religious based response, like the evolution vs. creationism (especially young earth creationism) debate.

So long as they are using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, sure; nor should they. If a student can describe Evolutionary theory within the standards, the desired learning has occurred, and the educator has no business insisting that the student also accept it as a worldview.

In social studies, for example, a section on the Founders adoption of John Lockes' premise that God grants individual humans their rights directly should result in the student being able to describe the idea and how it was applied. The State has no business then taking it a step further to insist that students also accept belief in a God (deist, Christian, or otherwise) that grants individual rights, despite that being the Founding premise of our system of government.

All of the text and the references to existing legislation that is replaced / updated (adds to context.)

I read those, but, they don't seem all that different than the OP.

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justabubba · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
So long as they are using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, sure; nor should they. If a student can describe Evolutionary theory within the standards, the desired learning has occurred, and the educator has no business insisting that the student also accept it as a worldview.

In social studies, for example, a section on the Founders adoption of John Lockes' premise that God grants individual humans their rights directly should result in the student being able to describe the idea and how it was applied. The State has no business then taking it a step further to insist that students also accept belief in a God (deist, Christian, or otherwise) that grants individual rights, despite that being the Founding premise of our system of government.

I read those, but, they don't seem all that different than the OP.

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true or false, the earth was created 4.54 billion years ago?

if the student, trained under a creationist doctrine, answers "false", are they to be found wrong for purposes of grading the test?

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

justabubba said:
true or false, the earth was created 4.54 billion years ago?

if the student, trained under a creationist doctrine, answers "false", are they to be found wrong for purposes of grading the test?

Seems like that's a bad question, then, especially since even the best science doesn't claim it's "true", only "most likely based on available evidence".

True or False: God gave individual human beings inalienable rights?

Somerville · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
Seems like that's a bad question, then, especially since even the best science doesn't claim it's "true", only "most likely based on available evidence".

True or False: God gave individual human beings inalienable rights?

Is Homo sapiens sapiens related to Pan paniscus? Was Homo sapiens neandertalensis an ancestor of modern humans? Was Australopithecus afarensis an ancestor of Homo sapiens sapiens? When did Australopithecus afarensis walk about Africa?

What was the largest wooden vessel ever constructed? How many animals could it hold in cages and for what length of time could the ship carry sufficient food for those animals?

Have the ruins of the Tower of Babel ever been discovered?

In what year, according to the best research was the tel, known today as the site of the city of Jericho, a functioning city and when was it destroyed?

justabubba · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
Seems like that's a bad question, then, especially since even the best science doesn't claim it's "true", only "most likely based on available evidence".

then more "true" than "false"

but the quandary for teachers is now apparent to you?

True or False: God gave individual human beings inalienable rights?

false
what did i win?

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

justabubba said:
then more "true" than "false"

but the quandary for teachers is now apparent to you?

They continue to be expected to not use bad questions for tests? That doesn't seem all that terribly strenuous, and, frankly, I'm not certain we should have people incapable of this teaching science at all.

false
what did i win?

You fail the test you established.

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

Somerville said:
Is Homo sapiens sapiens related to Pan paniscus? Was Homo sapiens neandertalensis an ancestor of modern humans? Was Australopithecus afarensis an ancestor of Homo sapiens sapiens? When did Australopithecus afarensis walk about Africa?

All you have to do is add the phrase "according to Evolutionary theory" at the beginning of any of those questions. :shrug:

What was the largest wooden vessel ever constructed? How many animals could it hold in cages and for what length of time could the ship carry sufficient food for those animals?

Similarly, "According to the book of Genesis".

Have the ruins of the Tower of Babel ever been discovered?

In what year, according to the best research was the tel, known today as the site of the city of Jericho, a functioning city and when was it destroyed?

Pretty sure Jericho was destroyed multiple times. But I'd wonder why this (and the question about the tower of Babel) were questions in the first place.

Somerville · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
All you have to do is add the phrase "according to Evolutionary theory" at the beginning of any of those questions. :shrug:

Similarly, "According to the book of Genesis".

Pretty sure Jericho was destroyed multiple times. But I'd wonder why this (and the question about the tower of Babel) were questions in the first place.

The species I named are all viewed as related to modern humans owing to DNA examinations - relations which do not conform with the tale of creation(s) we can read in the Bible.

A student should be given a passing grade on a basic geology exam if they answer: "According to the book of Genesis"?

Good. Jericho was destroyed multiple times. Unfortunately, for the Bible believers, none of the times of destruction were during the period when Joshua supposedly attacked the city. Then there is the whole problem with the non-existence of the Hebrews leaving Egypt as described in the Book of Exodus - but, public schools don't talk about that.

justabubba · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
They continue to be expected to not use bad questions for tests? That doesn't seem all that terribly strenuous, and, frankly, I'm not certain we should have people incapable of this teaching science at all.

You fail the test you established.

if inalienable rights are G_d-given, then why do so many on this planet not possess them?

and in our founders' day, why did the blacks not possess them?

Somerville · Nov 16, 2019

justabubba said:
if inalienable rights are G_d-given, then why do so many on this planet not possess them?

and in our founders' day, why did the blacks not possess them?

Not only Africans, but also women and Native Americans.

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

justabubba said:
if inalienable rights are G_d-given, then why do so many on this planet not possess them?

Those who believe they are God granted would say that they do have those rights, and that the government's who abuse them are therefore wrong to do so.

But the question here is: Should a child who is learning about that concept be forced to affirm it and pretend to believe it in order to pass school?

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

Somerville said:
The species I named are all viewed as related to modern humans owing to DNA examinations - relations which do not conform with the tale of creation(s) we can read in the Bible.

A student should be given a passing grade on a basic geology exam if they answer: "According to the book of Genesis"?

If the concept they are being taught and tested on was the Book of Genesis, certainly.

If, however, the school was teaching a part of the Old Testament and insisted the student affirm it as their own worldview, then that would be wrong.

The public education Monopoly needs to be broken up, generally, to allow parents to exercise choice. In the meantime, public schools should teach concepts without forcing a particular set of religious beliefs on the child, or punishing them for their own or lack thereof. This is hardly difficult.

Somerville · Nov 16, 2019

cpwill said:
If the concept they are being taught and tested on was the Book of Genesis, certainly.

If, however, the school was teaching a part of the Old Testament and insisted the student affirm it as their own worldview, then that would be wrong.

The public education Monopoly needs to be broken up, generally, to allow parents to exercise choice. In the meantime, public schools should teach concepts without forcing a particular set of religious beliefs on the child, or punishing them for their own or lack thereof. This is hardly difficult.

Your comment here has little relationship to the questions I posed. Then you bring in your opinion of what might happen in a public school classroom where the study of the Bible is part of a religious studies course. Any teacher who asked students to affirm the validity of a passage as part of the students' worldview should not be teaching the course.

Teaching commonly accepted science and history is to be seen as forcing "religious beliefs on students?

cpwill · Nov 16, 2019

Somerville said:
Your comment here has little relationship to the questions I posed. Then you bring in your opinion of what might happen in a public school classroom where the study of the Bible is part of a religious studies course. Any teacher who asked students to affirm the validity of a passage as part of the students' worldview should not be teaching the course.

I concur. The point is to teach relevant concepts and ideas, not impose beliefs.

Teaching commonly accepted science and history is to be seen as forcing "religious beliefs on students?

Only if you force them to affirm the validity of that which they may not believe, but which you do. Teach them the concepts and ideas. But it's not the State's job to teach us worldviews or belief systems.

Somerville · Nov 17, 2019

cpwill said:
I concur. The point is to teach relevant concepts and ideas, not impose beliefs.

Only if you force them to affirm the validity of that which they may not believe, but which you do. Teach them the concepts and ideas. But it's not the State's job to teach us worldviews or belief systems.

Sadly, for some of us anyway, there are many more 'Christian' teachers forcing their beliefs on students than there are atheist teachers forcing students to read the textbooks and answer questions as they are taught. Creationism has zero scientific support, it is a religious belief and nothing more. Much of the history found in the Old Testament has zero support by archaeologists and historians.

cpwill · Nov 17, 2019

Somerville said:
Sadly, for some of us anyway, there are many more 'Christian' teachers forcing their beliefs on students than there are atheist teachers forcing students to read the textbooks and answer questions as they are taught.

I'm not sure I buy that entirely, but regardless - would you say that the State has any role doing that?

Somerville · Nov 17, 2019

cpwill said:
I'm not sure I buy that entirely, but regardless - would you say that the State has any role doing that?

Doing what? Teaching science or creationism? Teaching myths or history?

Ohio lawmakers clear bill critics say could expand religion in public schools

Somerville

j brown's body

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OrphanSlug

A sinister place...

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