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Education crisis? Or acceptable outcomes for this country.

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charliebrown

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Seems like we have really not improved in education at all since 1992. I guess that is because our education system is perfect.
 
charliebrown said:
Access Denied

Seems like we have really not improved in education at all since 1992. I guess that is because our education system is perfect.
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Isn't that about the time people really started getting internet porn delivered straight to their bedroom?
 
charliebrown said:
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Seems like we have really not improved in education at all since 1992. I guess that is because our education system is perfect.
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When the mission of K-12 public education becomes (absolute?) equality of outcome (everyone passes every grade in one year and graduates on time?) then it is doomed to fail. What results is "teachers" handing out participation trophies to all (the Special Olympics model?) and "students" soon realize that actually learning things (paying attention in class and doing homework assignments) is no longer required. The age a year, advance a grade level (never mind what those "racist" standardized test scores show") system is doomed to failure.
 
Drawdown said:
Isn't that about the time people really started getting internet porn delivered straight to their bedroom?
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Yep, the internet was either an education wizard, the new encyclopedia, or a distraction. Seems the distraction is the clear winner.
 
Until we get rid of the grade by grade assembly line in which all children are assumed to learn at the same daily and monthly and yearly rate - we will not solve the problem.

And we will never get rid of it because the alternative is thought to be too expensive and this is the cheapest alternative that works reasonably well for most students.

I wonder if the Air Force throws a bake sale to buy new jets?
 
Also, the recently released National Report Card indicates that student performance has decreased since Betsy DeVos became the Sec. of Education. DeVos has no background in education, no formal training in education, no experience in educational governance and funding, no experience in management as far as I can determine and no personal experience in public education. How could anything have possibly gone wrong under the DeVos's direction? :unsure13: :shocked2:
 
The education secretary’s comments were interpreted by some stakeholders as an oversimplification of the problem.
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Who the hell are the "stakeholders"?

DeVos also bemoaned the increase in funding for K-12 education, which she said has done nothing to benefit student improvement.
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This is absolutely and undeniably true.

In her 10-minute speech, DeVos placed the blame squarely on the backs of education policy experts and those among the so-called education establishment, like teachers unions and advocacy organizations, for failing to sound the alarm and embrace more radical changes, like her school choice agenda, to move the needle.
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Progressives will always fight against school choice. They want kids trapped in failing schools in order to benefit public unions.
 
charliebrown said:
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Seems like we have really not improved in education at all since 1992. I guess that is because our education system is perfect.
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Longer than that actually. I found this quote very telling:

How many industries that were around 100 years ago–and are still around today–are making their products almost the exact same way? Can you think of an industry that uses almost the identical methods of production they did 100 years ago, one that hasn’t undergone radical industrialization, innovation, or significant transformation?

How about the American classroom? Our method of teaching hasn’t radically changed over the past century. It’s stuck, it’s dated, and it’s in need of radical transformation. While there are bright spots in the private school system, the public education system–where the vast majority of our children are being taught, guided, and motivated–is a dated, bloated, inefficient, bureaucratic dinosaur. It lost sight and understanding of its consumer a long, long time ago.


Here is the rest of the article:

We Know Our Education System Is Broken, So Why Can’t We Fix It?
 
Risky Thicket said:
Also, the recently released National Report Card indicates that student performance has decreased since Betsy DeVos became the Sec. of Education. DeVos has no background in education, no formal training in education, no experience in educational governance and funding, no experience in management as far as I can determine and no personal experience in public education. How could anything have possibly gone wrong under the DeVos's direction? :unsure13: :shocked2:
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So Betsy DeVos controls the academic performance of every student in America? The Federal DOE is a complete waste of time and money and if eliminated tomorrow would have no impact on student performance.
 
Cynical said:
So Betsy DeVos controls the academic performance of every student in America? The Federal DOE is a complete waste of time and money and if eliminated tomorrow would have no impact on student performance.
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That's a big statement. No doubt you can show us how you are correct, please do.
 
Risky Thicket said:
That's a big statement. No doubt you can show us how you are correct, please do.
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First of all I've worked in education and there is not a successful outcome that I can in anyway contribute to the Federal DOE. Secondly there is nothing that the Federal DOE does that cannot be handled at the state level. No Child Left Behind was a complete failure. Even the nonsense that came out of our state DOE was completely useless and actually made the lives of teachers worse and did nothing to enhance student performance. That's just off the top of my head.
 
Cynical said:
First of all I've worked in education and there is not a successful outcome that I can in anyway contribute to the Federal DOE. Secondly there is nothing that the Federal DOE does that cannot be handled at the state level. No Child Left Behind was a complete failure. Even the nonsense that came out of our state DOE was completely useless and actually made the lives of teachers worse and did nothing to enhance student performance. That's just off the top of my head.
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You are right there is nothing that cannot be handled at a state level, just some states have proved they cannot be trusted to.
 
Carjosse said:
You are right there is nothing that cannot be handled at a state level, just some states have proved they cannot be trusted to.
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Cannot be trusted to do what exactly?
 
Cynical said:
Who gets to decide what exactly is "properly"?
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When outcomes are consistently bad or getting worse, the problem is most pronounced in Southern states. Hell Oklahoma decided to cut an entire day of school off of the week in the name of cost cutting:
 
Carjosse said:
When outcomes are consistently bad or getting worse, the problem is most pronounced in Southern states. Hell Oklahoma decided to cut an entire day of school off of the week in the name of cost cutting:
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The issue there is purely economic. I assume that state aid is not available either? Also it is not only a Southern state issue either. In most if not all the big inner cities the schools there often face issues regarding funding and overcrowding. I guess that one could argue that there should be a Federal "slush fund" for such districts but again that does not require an entire federal department for that.
 
Carjosse said:
You are right there is nothing that cannot be handled at a state level, just some states have proved they cannot be trusted to.
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Which states have proved they cannot be trusted to handle their public education?

These maps from nationsreportcard.gov show a sad picture all around. Without trying to cherrypick any particular set of statistics, I was surprised that states like CA, OR, IL and even NY have numbers the same or similar to states in the South. In some cases, they were even worse.

For all the billions of dollars we collectively spend each year on public education, we must be doing something wrong if these are the results. More money is not, cannot be the answer. Neither is more bureaucracy. As it is, Public Ed is the biggest wealth redistribution scheme we've come up with to-date and I seriously question whether it's worth it.
 
SomeCents said:
Which states have proved they cannot be trusted to handle their public education?

These maps from nationsreportcard.gov show a sad picture all around. Without trying to cherrypick any particular set of statistics, I was surprised that states like CA, OR, IL and even NY have numbers the same or similar to states in the South. In some cases, they were even worse.

For all the billions of dollars we collectively spend each year on public education, we must be doing something wrong if these are the results. More money is not, cannot be the answer. Neither is more bureaucracy. As it is, Public Ed is the biggest wealth redistribution scheme we've come up with to-date and I seriously question whether it's worth it.
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Who a child's parents are is one of the major if not the most important factor in a students success. No amount of money or government program is ever going to change that.
 
Cynical said:
Who a child's parents are is one of the major if not the most important factor in a students success. No amount of money or government program is ever going to change that.
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The single greatest determinant of academic achievement among children with equal ability is parent involvement.
 
Cynical said:
First of all I've worked in education and there is not a successful outcome that I can in anyway contribute to the Federal DOE. Secondly there is nothing that the Federal DOE does that cannot be handled at the state level. No Child Left Behind was a complete failure. Even the nonsense that came out of our state DOE was completely useless and actually made the lives of teachers worse and did nothing to enhance student performance. That's just off the top of my head.
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What then would you suggest?
 
Risky Thicket said:
What then would you suggest?
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Education at the higher levels (high school/college) needs to be more practical. A student gets a general education of an array of subject matter from K to 8th grade. Does one really need another 8 years of general education classes? Complete waste of time and money. At the higher levels there needs to be more of an incorporation of employment possibilities as well as a greater focus on a students interests and abilities. I don't know if this will ever happen because the education establishment is so entrenched and is very powerful. The only way education will reform is if there is a concerted private sector competition that establishes relationships with businesses to provide students a less expensive and more streamlined approach to get employees into businesses.
 
Cynical said:
Education at the higher levels (high school/college) needs to be more practical. A student gets a general education of an array of subject matter from K to 8th grade. Does one really need another 8 years of general education classes? Complete waste of time and money. At the higher levels there needs to be more of an incorporation of employment possibilities as well as a greater focus on a students interests and abilities. I don't know if this will ever happen because the education establishment is so entrenched and is very powerful. The only way education will reform is if there is a concerted private sector competition that establishes relationships with businesses to provide students a less expensive and more streamlined approach to get employees into businesses.
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This, times infinity.

Education shouldn’t be looked at as an assembly line for cubicle jobs.

The old analogy of “If a flower won’t grow in its environment, you don’t blame the flower”.


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The US system is fine... it can be adjusted to a more inquiry learning or design thinking models, of course... but there is nothing about it that is inherently broken. Kids are coming out of the system well educated, for those that bother to try.
 
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