New Florida bill would require public schools to offer Bible courses

Bum said:

I will say it again; religion has NO place in public schools......I have always been an advocate of keeping public education strictly to education, not indoctrination.

To that end, I dont think we should be playing games and dancing around the edge of disingenuous arguments that allow "religious creep" of any variety in public education.

No bible studies, no muslim prayer times or rooms set aside for such, no holidays to be observed in the public education arena; if you want your kids to be brought up in a religious school, there are plenty of private schools willing to offer religious indoctrination.

Your right to religious freedom does not extend to taxpayer funded support of your beliefs.....whatever your spiritual belief, you are not entitled to special accommodation at government expense.

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I see what you're getting at here, and can see the rational here because the danger with religiosity in public schools is the corrupt manner which the adults may use to implement it. I get that. Better safe than sorry, is what I believe your saying.

But I disagree, and as usual with freedom I tend to err on the side of allowing more freedom, accepting the possible dangers freedom represents.

I see no problems with using religious materials as academic study, nor do I have a problem with the major religious books (Bible, Tanakha, Koran, etc.) being the object of academic study. And especially, I like the idea of a comparative religions class. I believe these are all subjects our children need to be aware of and educated in. There is a valid need for these subjects, if one wants to be an educated person.

Where it gets dicey, is in spirituality and faith vs pure academics. And this is where I believe you & I disagree. I have no problem allowing student-involved faith activities that cause no harm to the other students. We have all sorts of non-academic activities & groups in our schools, ranging from music, to writing, to electronics, to economics, business, and a whole range of hobbies, clubs, and sports. I see no reason religion & spirituality should be excluded as an activity or club, as long as there is no preferential treatment. Many of these clubs and activities are student-led, and I strongly encourage student-led activities. I strongly encourage young people to explore.

But I do very much see your fears. Some adults will try to use religious freedoms to act corruptly. But that should be taken on a case-by-case basis. Freedom has it's costs. And I'm not going to deny the kids room to grow & learn, out of my fears. I can address those fears if & when they actually manifest themselves.

Nickyjo said:

As I recall, histories of religions were taught in a public high school I attended. And schools honor great Christian feasts of Christmas and Easter by giving students time off. When I lived in NYC back in the day, Catholic kids got “released time” of two hours a week from public school to go to churches for religious instruction, and Jewish kids could take their holidays off from school without penalty. These were modest accommodations that I don’t think violate the Constitution.

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There ya' go! Perfect examples of sensible religious tolerance in the public sphere.

Remember - the Constitution does not ban religion from public spaces, it only bans government support of religious preference.

One of the best things we can do, is interact with those of other faiths than ours. In fact, I always said the best way to learn about another culture is to date them! And I'm not kidding, in this last. I've had a richer life, for it.

Simon W. Moon said:

There're amazingly large chunks of literature and other arts which are practically indecipherable without the context provided by Abrahamic religions.
If you are going to teach the arts in the Western world, you pretty much need to cover the Bible.

I'm unsure if the rates of bible study have changed over the years or not.
But it's possible that in the past more of the Bible was common knowledge. It was just taken for granted that student already knew certain things.

Additionally, the Abrahamic religions have had large impacts on law and other aspects of our culture.
It's important to understand these things if you are trying to understand our society and its history

All of that said, I suspect that the bill's sponsors have something else in mind.

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Good post. All of it. The history of modern Western civilization is intertwined with the Holy Roman Empire. In fact, we probably should start at the Tigris-Euphrates Valley - to be honest!

Chomsky said:

Good post. All of it. The history of modern Western civilization is intertwined with the Holy Roman Empire. In fact, we probably should start at the Tigris-Euphrates Valley - to be honest!

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Before visual basic script vbs only had one meaning.

I wonder how many kids still go.

simon w. Moon said:

before visual basic script vbs only had one meaning.

I wonder how many kids still go.

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vbs?



.

Chomsky said:

vbs?

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Vacation Bible School

church signs often just say vbs and then a date of when it begins.

It's during the summer when the kids are out of school

Some are Bible study, some are just daycare

JacksinPA said:

New Florida bill would require public schools to offer Bible courses | TheHill

A proposed bill introduced in the Florida Legislature seeks to require public schools in the state to offer Bible courses as electives for high school students.

Under the bill, each public school district in the state would be required to offer elective courses relating to religion, Hebrew Scriptures and the Bible to students in grades nine through 12.
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So much for the separation of church & state.

The shortest sentence in the Bible applies here: Jesus wept. John 11:35

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And there will be a first amendment challenge in 99... 98... 97...

ttwtt78640 said:

I agree unless it is simply part of an elective comparative religions or religious history course. Keep in mind that colleges are also public schools.

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Keep in mind that Bible Study implies a very specific activity, and not a scholarly one.

I am all for a comparative religions elective course in public high schools. Students would benefit from exposure to the history and tenets of world religions.

I am 100% opposed to taxpayer-funded bible studies.

Phys251 said:

Keep in mind that Bible Study implies a very specific activity, and not a scholarly one.

I am all for a comparative religions elective course in public high schools. Students would benefit from exposure to the history and tenets of world religions.

I am 100% opposed to taxpayer-funded bible studies.

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Agreed.

Simon W. Moon said:

Vacation Bible School

church signs often just say vbs and then a date of when it begins.

It's during the summer when the kids are out of school

Some are Bible study, some are just daycare

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It's actually fun, believe it or not.

Simon W. Moon said:

Vacation Bible School

church signs often just say vbs and then a date of when it begins.

It's during the summer when the kids are out of school

Some are Bible study, some are just daycare

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Ah, thanks. For us urban Catholics, faith & social things revolved around the parish. A parish encompassed a few blocks in either direction. And there were other similar parishes within a few blocks over, usually less than a mile or so.

We related to and identified ourselves by the parish when meeting others from outside it, even if from the same neighborhood. And everything was self-contained within the parish, with a full set of resources within. So we essentially were able to get whatever we needed from within our parish, or with the help of fellow parishioners. It was a great micro-community. But it was not so micro in terms of population. We had over 3K registered families, and the school was bursting at the seams with 700 kids. And none of us lived more than a few blocks away! Imagine that? These were really dense & crowded neighborhoods!

We were city kids, from modest backgrounds. So most of us kids spent the summers running the streets tearing-up the city, flirting with juvenile delinquency & doing our best to try to have a misspent youth - even if only for the summer. Fun times. Except for the kids that went hard-core juvie, and later graduated to the big leagues. Not so much fun for those kids, who ended-up with misspent lives in the end.

Yes, Jesus wept because people are fulfilling his mandate...:roll:

Personally, I find this fantastic. If schools are going to provide space for muslim students to have prayer break force, force students to recite the Shahada and study quranic texts under the guise of world history, than biblical courses are more than appropriate.

ChezC3 said:

Yes, Jesus wept because people are fulfilling his mandate...:roll:

Personally, I find this fantastic. If schools are going to provide space for muslim students to have prayer break force, force students to recite the Shahada and study quranic texts under the guise of world history, than biblical courses are more than appropriate.

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And there is the problem. Allowing or teaching religion in schools is an all or none issue.

ChezC3 said:

Yes, Jesus wept because people are fulfilling his mandate...:roll:

Personally, I find this fantastic. If schools are going to provide space for muslim students to have prayer break force, force students to recite the Shahada and study quranic texts under the guise of world history, than biblical courses are more than appropriate.

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Thats perfectly fine, so long as they teach all religions equally.

Its all, or none.

Flori-duh oh flori-duh. Once again you disappoint me.

Without reading anything about the article, let me guess, it's sponsored by republicans.

And the religious right cries about how 'the christians' are under attack.

With that said, I think it's a great idea to expand young folks knowledge about religion. Two catches, it shouldn't be passed through a bill, instead it should just be offered as another course not espousing one religion over another.

It should only be used as a tool for discussion.

This from an atheist.

Chomsky said:

Fair enough.

I think they all (religions) should be allowed. As I stated in my original post, as long as the school allows other religions to be represented, it would be fine. Remember - the Constitution does not ban religion from public places, but it only bans supporting religious preference.

So if the demographics support it, the school could probably add Koran & Tanakh study as well, thereby having representation of the three major religions in the U.S. Then take it from there.

But most importantly, I'd let the kids do their own grassroots pushes to start their own student-led study groups too. Perhaps there's some minor religion they've become fascinated with like the Bahá'í, which I flirted with on an intellectual level as a young person? Let the kids decide. Let them have at it!

I strongly believe in spiritual exploration, and kids are usually pretty good at wanting to find non-mainstream niches that appeal to them counter to their parents often more mainstream religions. So give them some room to explore. They'll learn about themselves, and probably end back at one of the mainstream religions like I did. They'll appreciate their faith more, and they'll be far better for the journey.

And while we're at it, why not have an academic comparative religions class? To get them thinking? I'm all for it!

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Supporting religion or not supporting religion is a preference. Public schools should be neutral on religion. DO to human nature there will always be teachers and school staff espousing their religious preferences and influencing students. Sure they'll word it to not get in trouble and get away with it anyways. All's fine until your kid comes home one day from school and tells you that you are evil or wicked.