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Thread: The cost of education

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Look, if I insulted you in some way previously, I must apologize. Let's try to start afresh and see if we can gain some clarity about what we mean.

    First of all, I'm not assuming that a major should be only chosen out of monetary consideration. However, when you choose a major, being able to pay back your loan thereafter should be a consideration. You have every right to spend tens of thousands of dollars and forgo several years of income and experience to study a field that might not have immediate practical relevance or which might be very hard to monetize. The issue is that some people who go to college acquire skills they cannot monetize and then complain about their bad finances, asking other people to cash out on their behalf. Once you get other people involved in this process, you kind of need to justify digging into their pockets. And, yes, it's a problem on many levels, including for the autonomy of students.

    Second of all, I know that high school graduates do not think that way. Virtually no one today would tell a young man or a young woman to think about the practical consequences of their choices. The advice they give is to "follow your passion." Nobody will tell them they have to make sure they're not sacrificing too much their future well being for current comfort, that most people are not passionate about their work, let alone to follow opportunity rather than passion. Why would you expect a young man or a young woman to have self-control and forethought when no one ever requires them to have it? Part of the issue here is that education fails students by not imparting enough wisdom on them to tackle these problems with the seriousness they command. I don't think most of them realize the enormity of their mistakes until they step out of university because we cuddle them too much. There's always someone to pick up after them. When they graduate and see the bills come in, that must be quite the shock. Some of them have like half a mortgage to pay without any asset to their name and, absent professional skills, it will be long before they can bargain a decent premium over a minimum wage. If I had to make a bet, I'd side with Jonathan Haidt on this one and say things such as rampant censorship on college campuses is a sign that we're dealing with 20-year-old children and not with adults. They don't know how to take conflicts in their own hands and find a peaceful way to resolve them whenever possible. What they know is finding a figure of authority and asking them to handle the problem.


    Of course, if I am right, it begs the question of what to do with those who took out the loans legally. If you pay all of it, you're reiterating the problem that caused them to take a bad loan. If you don't do anything, you're letting people you did not train correctly march toward a predictable failure. However, it does prescribe something clear for younger people: go back to teaching a bit about character development and find ways to make more concrete the consequences of a large debt before they make choices.


    “Look, if I insulted you in some way previously, I must apologize. Let's try to start afresh and see if we can gain some clarity about what we mean.”

    Thank you for saying so.

    “First of all, I'm not assuming that a major should be only chosen out of monetary consideration.”

    Yet you do diss “Women studies, gender studies, sociology, history, philosophy, etc.” for being… And say “If you major in one of the many useless social justice majors (usually names "..." studies), it's as clear as day that you will not make six figures.” (I did point-out that the 3-figure earning degrees had the highest debt to income ratios, which flies in the face of what you said. You made no response to that). Plus “to end up earning $40 K, it's not a financially sound choice.”

    There’s more to the above. I think that’s enough to support that what you did not assume sure fooled me.

    “However”

    Yeah. Back at it again. You’re getting up on your soap box to again rehash your ideology to the world into mincemeat. I’m not going to bother to pick apart your intellectual gibberish. You haven’t provided the proof to back up what you’ve been saying so far so why be responsive to what else you repeat or add.

    “we're dealing with 20-year-old children and not with adults.”

    Yet you previously were very specific about them being adults and having to take that responsibility fully.

    “Of course, if I am right, it begs the question of what to do with those who took out the loans legally”

    And, of course, you won’t dare answer that question. You’re all theory and imagination.

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    Yet you do diss “Women studies, gender studies, sociology, history, philosophy, etc.” for being… And say “If you major in one of the many useless social justice majors (usually names "..." studies), it's as clear as day that you will not make six figures.” (I did point-out that the 3-figure earning degrees had the highest debt to income ratios, which flies in the face of what you said. You made no response to that). Plus “to end up earning $40 K, it's not a financially sound choice.”

    There’s more to the above. I think that’s enough to support that what you did not assume sure fooled me.
    Plans need to make financial sense: you have to be able to live with the payments later. We wouldn't be talking about it if very many people did not underestimate the challenge. The core of the issue is financial which is why I only mentioned finances.

    Of course, we have people in much worse conditions. The other day, I heard a guy on a radio show. He studied medicine and failed very far down the road. He is some 400K in the hole. He has an undergraduate degree and some experience he might be able to bargain to get good paychecks, but that will not be a doctor's pay and that is a mighty debt. It's an extreme example, but I am sure quite a few people are stuck with debt and no degree because they flunked out of their program. Those people are in a very bad position.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    Yet you previously were very specific about them being adults and having to take that responsibility fully.
    We give children a break on account that they are children. How far do you want to extend this magnanimity to young adults on account that they act like children? Telling people they can make a massive mess, even as adults, and that not only will someone else pick it up on their behalf, but that they can legitimately request that others pick it up is not a message you should want to send. How you can cope with this problem without sending this message is a nontrivial problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    “Of course, if I am right, it begs the question of what to do with those who took out the loans legally” And, of course, you won’t dare answer that question. You’re all theory and imagination.
    Actually, I pointed out that a tension exists between personal responsibility and the possibility that parents and teachers failed them.

    The first thing I would want is that, if something is done to partially alleviate their debt, something must be done to make sure it's not a recurring theme. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we should insist on teaching about personal responsibility. The current fad in education is to protect them from having any sort of negative feelings, to have adults constantly monitor them and to have adults mediate all conflicts among them. That has been going on for quite a long time and it doesn't seem to help produce good and independent people. It seems to produce people who remain dependent for a long time. Jonathan Haidt, an avowed liberal and life-long Democrat, has a book on this called "The Cuddling of the American Mind." Outside of universities, we teach people to be dependent and, once they are in universities, we tell them to adopt the opposite advice of sound psychological therapy... You need to make people strong, not comfortable.

    The second thing I would want to see is determining how much can the government reasonably spend on debt relief and, in that realm, a debate should be had regarding how much help is desirable. You can't treat adults like children, so paying up everything is not desirable (except in the case of scams). On the other hand, it seems unfair to spare them defeats in little leagues only to drop tens of thousands of dollars debt in their hands at 21. They didn't create participation trophies and their corollaries. Adults did that to them. Where you draw the line, I don't know, but I don't like either 100% or 0%. Again, if they were raised properly, this wouldn't be a problem because the vast majority of them would not be making decisions they cannot sustain.

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Plans need to make financial sense: you have to be able to live with the payments later. We wouldn't be talking about it if very many people did not underestimate the challenge. The core of the issue is financial which is why I only mentioned finances.

    Of course, we have people in much worse conditions. The other day, I heard a guy on a radio show. He studied medicine and failed very far down the road. He is some 400K in the hole. He has an undergraduate degree and some experience he might be able to bargain to get good paychecks, but that will not be a doctor's pay and that is a mighty debt. It's an extreme example, but I am sure quite a few people are stuck with debt and no degree because they flunked out of their program. Those people are in a very bad position.



    We give children a break on account that they are children. How far do you want to extend this magnanimity to young adults on account that they act like children? Telling people they can make a massive mess, even as adults, and that not only will someone else pick it up on their behalf, but that they can legitimately request that others pick it up is not a message you should want to send. How you can cope with this problem without sending this message is a nontrivial problem.



    Actually, I pointed out that a tension exists between personal responsibility and the possibility that parents and teachers failed them.

    The first thing I would want is that, if something is done to partially alleviate their debt, something must be done to make sure it's not a recurring theme. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we should insist on teaching about personal responsibility. The current fad in education is to protect them from having any sort of negative feelings, to have adults constantly monitor them and to have adults mediate all conflicts among them. That has been going on for quite a long time and it doesn't seem to help produce good and independent people. It seems to produce people who remain dependent for a long time. Jonathan Haidt, an avowed liberal and life-long Democrat, has a book on this called "The Cuddling of the American Mind." Outside of universities, we teach people to be dependent and, once they are in universities, we tell them to adopt the opposite advice of sound psychological therapy... You need to make people strong, not comfortable.

    The second thing I would want to see is determining how much can the government reasonably spend on debt relief and, in that realm, a debate should be had regarding how much help is desirable. You can't treat adults like children, so paying up everything is not desirable (except in the case of scams). On the other hand, it seems unfair to spare them defeats in little leagues only to drop tens of thousands of dollars debt in their hands at 21. They didn't create participation trophies and their corollaries. Adults did that to them. Where you draw the line, I don't know, but I don't like either 100% or 0%. Again, if they were raised properly, this wouldn't be a problem because the vast majority of them would not be making decisions they cannot sustain.


    “I only mentioned finances.”

    That and snide remarks about certain majors, how that might play in the employment market and as a career, and how those people’s majors are indicative of radical views that would be problematic for the employer.

    BTW, what do you think would happen if college bound students made choice of their major based on what was judged to provide the best financial future?

    “We give children a break on account that they are children.”

    An 18-year old is considered an adult in the US, which the vast majority of college students are, and older. Apparently, you have switched positions mid-debate from them being adults to them being children. Or maybe young adults. I really don’t know what your saying in this paragraph. All I get out of this is you trying to get out of this portion of the debate by chameleon tactics. Nice dodge.

    “not comfortable.”

    I agree completely.

    “Actually, I pointed out that…”

    Just another dodge.

    I largely agree with your last paragraph. I think there is compromise there to effectively bring down the cost of higher education to the student/family to be more in proportion to what it was, say, in the 50’s and 60’s. And thanks for saying “paying up everything is not desirable (except in the case of scams).”

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    I saw this last night and i think mike rowe makes some really good points about the cost of college educations. Imo this is a subject that we should be able to discuss in a bipartisan way.

    YouTube

    Tucker Carlson makes a pretty good suggestion in a later segment. He suggests that schools should share in the risks on student loans. I think he is right about that.

    What are your thoughts?

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Couldn't agree more. In so many ways (which I won't get into right now) higher education is scam. Just what exactly are we paying a university for? The university doesn’t guarantee anyone a job, and even worse they are not even training you to work in a profession! So what exactly are we paying them for? Unless college has changed drastically since I went much of it involves sitting in classrooms listening to lectures. So one can conclude that part of what one is paying for is the privilege of sitting in classrooms for another four years of one’s life and to listen to lectures in which much of the content one will soon forget and also never use. Ultimately though, and let’s be honest, what we are paying for is be assessed by a professor via a letter grade and hopefully, through those grades, get that piece of paper which deems us worthy to work in a so-called “white collar” job.

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    Im trying to keep this as an apolitical discussion. The issue isnt political as much as it is in peoples attitude toward education in general. The education industry is preying on peoples insecurities.

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    Part of the marketing strategy of the industrial education complex was to convince (or brainwash as I like to view it) as many Americans as possible that the so-called American Dream meant sending your children to college to get that fancy, high paying, white collar job with a cool title! And hey it worked! How much money did people borrow to go to college and rack up billions of dollars of debt!

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I fully support Mike Rowe and his observations and agenda.

    I also believe not everyone needs to go to college. The fact the must graduate from college to get ahead is a lie being told by educators and their supporters in government. People should look at how many people take on the debt, and never graduate.

    Higher Education, and the cost of it, is one of the great scams of the 21st Century.

    I think Colleges and Universities should have a money back guarantee if they take in students who have to borrow to attend.

    That would end this free money for bad education scam that is being perpetrated on young people.
    Completely agree! Make them back their product with a money back guarantee! I can't think of any other business in which you purchase a product and get no guarantee in return.

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    We should end all federally subsidized student loans NOW and make existing student loan debt dischargable in bankruptcy.

    In other words, stop any further bleeding and let those who took out the loans work it out with the schools that sold the loans to them.

    And let's start looking at alternatives to going to a big expensive college, which in the digital age are almost as anachronistic as book stores. Knowledge is free. To paraphrasee Good Will Hunting, a person should be able to get a basic college education for nothing more than a few dollars of overdue library fines. It's that diploma that you're paying for and in many cases it's worthless.
    It's good to see others recognizing higher ed for the scam it is! Ultimately that piece of paper is what one is paying for. And the fancier the university is the more expensive that piece of paper costs.

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical View Post
    Completely agree! Make them back their product with a money back guarantee! I can't think of any other business in which you purchase a product and get no guarantee in return.
    Almost all software is sold without any express or implied warranty. How, exactly, could a college guarantee (ensure?) that a given student will be able to learn enough to graduate or that their degree (if ever earned and issued to that student) in Underwater Basket Weaving is going to be declared (sufficiently?) valuable by some third party?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical View Post
    Completely agree! Make them back their product with a money back guarantee! I can't think of any other business in which you purchase a product and get no guarantee in return.
    Worse than that, no repercussions for false advertising, and gross misrepresentation.

    It's one of the greatest frauds been foisted on primarily young people, in perhaps the Nation's history.
    “When you talk about the firm that produced the Steele reporting, the name of the firm that produced that was Fusion GPS. Is that correct?”

    “I’m not familiar with that,” Robert Mueller answered.

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    Re: The cost of education

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Almost all software is sold without any express or implied warranty. How, exactly, could a college guarantee (ensure?) that a given student will be able to learn enough to graduate or that their degree (if ever earned and issued to that student) in Underwater Basket Weaving is going to be declared (sufficiently?) valuable by some third party?
    If any one of us goes to a store and buys a software program and it doesn't work we can absolutely return it to the store for either a refund or another of the same software program. Regarding how a college would back it's product, personally I would like a system that would just select the best students for the majors that are in high demand. In other words it would be up to college's to have to be selective on who they admit. For the others we need a better system in high school that involves partnerships with local businesses so students can see what are the different types of jobs out there. More trade schools and schools that primarily focus on the job skills and coursework needed by local businesses, which would also include local partnerships with business that could offer on the job training.

    We don't need people sitting in classrooms for another four years of their lives. Let me give an example. My uncle worked in insurance as an adjuster. He didn't go to college, he interviewed and got the job. There was no actual NEED for a college degree to do the work. As he was retiring he commented how all the people coming into the insurance business now have college degrees. Now they did not do the job any better because of that, the only difference was that they had a piece of paper (college diploma) with their name on it.

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