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Should Public Schooling Go Online?

Geoist said:
Public education is, no doubt, an essential investment. However, with it taking up more than a quarter of most state budgets, are we getting the most bang for our tax bucks? With the popularity of online colleges growing, I wonder how much can be saved and redistributed to other programs/returned to taxpayers if online options were offered to gifted students and students with no significant disabilities? Cutting down on class size and building size for future schools could not only have an impact budget-wise, but it could cut down on bullying, school violence, peer pressure, and just the overall stress of school in general (honestly, who fondly remembers middle school or high school?) Some may argue online options would hurt a student's social skills. I don't know if I really agree with that. Students can acquire more social skills through extracurricular activities, family members, and friends in their neighborhood. A lot of the socialization in middle school/high school can be extremely negative which leads to fights, threats, harrassment, cyberstalking, and school shootings. I haven't dived real deep into any numbers, but there doesn't seem to be much on the internet about this idea.
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I am very high on online schooling. It does not necessarily need to be at home. It can still be in a social enviroment but allow students to move at their own pace ising tablets to do work assignments and sit in on lectures and have live chat features for one on one help sessions.

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mariopepper said:
Probably it shouldn't..
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Would you be against trying it as an experiment in a willing community? It could simply be an 'option' for parents and their children as an alternative to typical public schooling. If it is successful then it would naturally become more popular and cut down on upkeep costs. I tutor students who are home-bound but take the same classes as the other students using an online program. What I am talking about more-or-less exists but it is not actively promoted as an alternative.
 
It can be tried but I am not sure that result would be good for us
 
I'm bumping this topic as I think that the last year has given me added perspective on the value of on-line schooling.

As a high school teacher who has survived (barely) what I hope has been the worse of the COVID pandemic, here is what I've observed and nearly every other teacher I've spoken to has echoed the same. For about 5% of students, they can and do excel at on-line education. About 10% and survive on-line education. However, for 85% of my students their on-line experience has been tragic. I fear that we have largely sacrificed an entire generation of education.

If a student is an already self-motivated learner, then yes. Then on-line learning can work. But for the vast number of K-12 students, it has been a complete disaster.
 
justabubba said:
what do children receive in brick and mortar schools that they could not achieve online?
i suspect the future will be a melding of the two approaches
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The childcare aspect. A school is viewed as a (hopefully) safe place to send one's children when parents are at work.
 
Cynical said:
The childcare aspect. A school is viewed as a (hopefully) safe place to send one's children when parents are at work.
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Exactly. We talk about education but what we’re really asking for is child care with some education thrown in. At least until the kids are in high school, anyway
Somewhere to park our kids while their parents are able to work
 
How many "bright kids" have problems at school having to deal with dumb assholes.

Why not make on-line education available only for GPAs above 2.5? And pay kids with GPAs above 3.5.
 
psikeyhackr said:
How many "bright kids" have problems at school having to deal with dumb assholes.
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once kids get older and can qualify to attend specialized, advanced prep, and/or international baccalaureate, they tend to leave the problem kids behind
but until then, problemmatic students impair most of the kids from getting the most out of school
psikeyhackr said:
Why not make on-line education available only for GPAs above 2.5? And pay kids with GPAs above 3.5.
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i would endorse a program that provided a supplement to parents who are receiving government financial aid, where their student achieves a 3.0 and above
the downside is that the parents might then have the child enroll in crib courses for the money when the student could succeed in more difficult/higher class placements
 
justabubba said:
what do children receive in brick and mortar schools that they could not achieve online?
i suspect the future will be a melding of the two approaches
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I’m not sure that “could not” is as important what many children “would not” receive, e.g. adult supervision, social interaction, physical activity (including use of gym facilities and team sports), access to support facilities (for lab, shop and musical instrument classes) and (for many) prepared meals. Supplementing classroom instruction with online additional study is already available.
 
Geoist said:
Some families would very much prefer having their kids continue their education at a brick and mortar school for various reasons. This is why I think schools should offer online schooling as an alternative option. Obviously, it shouldn't be mandatory.
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It’s already an option for additional/supplemental education. One obvious problem is that as a significant portion of better students (from more stable households?) choose to leave public schools, those who stayed would be exposed to worse peer pressure and teacher quality. We already see a difference in (average) student performance between different schools within the same state or school district.
 
justabubba said:
once kids get older and can qualify to attend specialized, advanced prep, and/or international baccalaureate, they tend to leave the problem kids behind
but until then, problemmatic students impair most of the kids from getting the most out of school

i would endorse a program that provided a supplement to parents who are receiving government financial aid, where their student achieves a 3.0 and above
the downside is that the parents might then have the child enroll in crib courses for the money when the student could succeed in more difficult/higher class placements
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Oh please!

How many kids are sabotaged before they get out of grade school?
 
justabubba said:
what do children receive in brick and mortar schools that they could not achieve online?
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For many of them --- love, nurture, friendship, comfort, safety, a feeling of having a family....
 
Geoist said:
I am talking about school districts actively offering gifted students (and eventually regular students) online schooling as an alternative option. I work at a high school, I tutor students on the side who do Schoology at home. I know what is available. I also know schools do not actively promote online schooling alternatives and the online schooling from home is usually for students who are at home for medical or psychological reasons.
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I'm all for it -- for high school students. It can't be something that kids sign up for and then the parents don't make them do any work (like I saw countless times last year at my school).
 
Josie said:
For many of them --- love, nurture, friendship, comfort, safety, a feeling of having a family....
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And breakfast and lunch! Also very important.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I’m not sure that “could not” is as important what many children “would not” receive, e.g. adult supervision, social interaction, physical activity (including use of gym facilities and team sports), access to support facilities (for lab, shop and musical instrument classes) and (for many) prepared meals. Supplementing classroom instruction with online additional study is already available.
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Homeschooling is now well established as a model. At least in my community, there has been a homeschool association for about 30 years, and students do have access to support facilities and organized sports. Where there is a will, there is a way, and this, I think is the real challenge: Alternative education requires total parental commitment. There are so many parents who depend on brick-and-mortar schools and their personnel not just to educate their children, but also to physically supervise and babysit them (and, sigh, to feed them).
 
nota bene said:
Homeschooling is now well established as a model. At least in my community, there has been a homeschool association for about 30 years, and students do have access to support facilities and organized sports. Where there is a will, there is a way, and this, I think is the real challenge: Alternative education requires total parental commitment. There are so many parents who depend on brick-and-mortar schools and their personnel not just to educate their children, but also to physically supervise and babysit them (and, sigh, to feed them).
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teaching students to read and write has almost become a tertiary aspect of our nation's public education system
 
justabubba said:
teaching students to read and write has almost become a tertiary aspect of our nation's public education system
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As well as being considered optional for advancement to the next grade level and getting a participation diploma.
 
justabubba said:
teaching students to read and write has almost become a tertiary aspect of our nation's public education system
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And this in turn has debased the college education.
 
nota bene said:
And this in turn has debased the college education.
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recall reading that over one-half of college freshmen arrive unprepared to commence a collegiate curriculum. they require remedial training to begin their college studies
these are our best and brightest high school graduates who have been selected to attend college
i believe this may be the result of teaching to the lowest common denominator in public school. in leaving no child behind, we have left the brighter prospects without the skills they were capable of learning
 
nota bene said:
And this in turn has debased the college education.
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More like made a college degree (in anything) become the new certification to help ensure that employees are at least trainable, since a HS diploma no longer does so. I’ve encountered HS ‘graduates’ who can’t read a tape measure.
 
justabubba said:
recall reading that over one-half of college freshmen arrive unprepared to commence a collegiate curriculum. they require remedial training to begin their college studies
these are our best and brightest high school graduates who have been selected to attend college
i believe this may be the result of teaching to the lowest common denominator in public school. in leaving no child behind, we have left the brighter prospects without the skills they were capable of learning
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Oh, it's easily over a half. Teaching to the lowest common denominator can be a problem, but what I have experienced in a college classroom are the consequences of "social promotion." One of those consequences is a sense of entitlement. Let me give you an example from over 10 years ago. At the end of a Summer II term, I e-mailed students their final exam options. Two already less than marginal students responded with documents that did not respond to the assignment at all. I mean, at all. They earned zeros on those finals and came to my office to angrily argue. I couldn't get through to either of them, so I finally asked, "Look, if you were taking a math exam and didn't get any of the answers right, would you expect more than a zero?"

"Yes," they both replied through their tears, "because I tried."
 
justabubba said:
recall reading that over one-half of college freshmen arrive unprepared to commence a collegiate curriculum. they require remedial training to begin their college studies
these are our best and brightest high school graduates who have been selected to attend college
i believe this may be the result of teaching to the lowest common denominator in public school. in leaving no child behind, we have left the brighter prospects without the skills they were capable of learning
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The "best and brightest high school grads" aren't the only ones attending college, obviously. You can still go to college if you have bad grades.

I believe the number one indicator of success in education has nothing to do with the state or federal education laws, the curriculum or even the teachers --- it's the parents. If the average student has gone through their school years with poor grades I think it's almost guaranteed that their family isn't all that interested in education, don't encourage their child to do well, don't help their child study and don't set expectations for their child in school.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
More like made a college degree (in anything) become the new certification to help ensure that employees are at least trainable, since a HS diploma no longer does so. I’ve encountered HS ‘graduates’ who can’t read a tape measure.
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[emphasis added by bubba]

my wife taught high school art
she was amazed to see how many kids were unable to read/use a ruler
she taught her classes how to understand a ruler. high school students!

she even had one student, a junior, who could not read
she had him tested
he was bright, but experienced undiagnosed dyslexia
good, well-behaved kid, got advanced every school year because he caused no problems. could not do the work because he could not read. teachers assumed this smart kid was 'slow'
he was frustrated as hell
once he got help to learn to overcome his reading disability, he thrived
 
nota bene said:
Oh, it's easily over a half. Teaching to the lowest common denominator can be a problem, but what I have experienced in a college classroom are the consequences of "social promotion." One of those consequences is a sense of entitlement. Let me give you an example from over 10 years ago. At the end of a Summer II term, I e-mailed students their final exam options. Two already less than marginal students responded with documents that did not respond to the assignment at all. I mean, at all. They earned zeros on those finals and came to my office to angrily argue. I couldn't get through to either of them, so I finally asked, "Look, if you were taking a math exam and didn't get any of the answers right, would you expect more than a zero?"

"Yes," they both replied through their tears, "because I tried."
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Oh, good grief.

Lots of social promotion in the elementary schools too --- especially this past year. We had parents who chose remote learning and then did literally next-to-nothing all year. Their children were moved to the next grade despite not doing most of the work from the previous year. Now they are 2 grade levels or more behind, but they'll just keep being moved on.
 
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