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Thread: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions process

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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    I hope Trump pardons all the parents who were looking out for their children.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I hope Trump pardons all the parents who were looking out for their children.
    Why should he? If someone does something to benefit their children they should be pardoned?
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    Why should he? If someone does something to benefit their children they should be pardoned?
    Did you read the full title of the article linked to in the OP?

    'Affirmative action for the rich:' Wealthy parents use their privilege to game the college system. And it's perfectly legal



    Because we are talking about the parents who are charged with mail fraud. Mail fraud for looking out for their own in regards to activity that is itself not illegal.
    That is why.
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Did you read the full title of the article linked to in the OP?

    'Affirmative action for the rich:' Wealthy parents use their privilege to game the college system. And it's perfectly legal



    Because we are talking about the parents who are charged with mail fraud. Mail fraud for looking out for their own in regards to activity that is itself not illegal.
    That is why.
    That sounds to me like a terrible precedent to set, if someone was just doing something for their child they deserve a pardon.
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    That sounds to me like a terrible precedent to set, if someone was just doing something for their child they deserve a pardon.
    You left out the most important part. You know, the part of the headline that points out that the underlying activity was "perfectly legal".

    But mail fraud instead? No. If the Universities have a civil cause let them pursue it.

    The parents and children will suffer enough over the fact it was revealed, but going after the parents for mail fraud is a waste and pointless.


    As a result I hope society forces these academic institutions into only accepting academic merit in their selection. But we both know that isn't likely to happen and they will be free to discriminate in any fashion they wish.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Interesting article:

    Elite Colleges Make Low-Income Students Feel Unwelcome - The Atlantic

    What is most outrageous in all of this, is the following:

    Student A - a disadvantaged student of color, very bright, hardworking, gets excellent grades, struggles financially to get into a good school but earns a merit scholarship strictly due to great grades and high scores in IQ tests (no need for affirmative action), is then able to attend a good school where he/she does very well despite all the hardships described in the article I quoted above, graduating with top honors.

    Student B - spoiled brat rich white student, mediocre, gets in because mommy and daddy cheat his/her way into the school through illegal bribery and deception, after having showered the kid with all sorts of other advantages (private tutors, testing practice, advanced software and other resources in elite prep school, etc.) but still the brat wasn't good enough to get in, but does get in eventually thanks to the illegal bribery scam, parties and boozes his/her way through school while getting horrible grades, and finally graduates last in his/her class.

    Then, Student A goes on to get a good job, but people snicker behind his/her back, insinuating that he/she is only there because of affirmative action, and doesn't deserve it.

    Student B, however, regardless of how mediocre he/she is, is never suspected of "not deserving it" and never gets the same snickering scrutiny, although this is the one who actually did NOT deserve it.

    Sure, I do understand that the world is unfair and the rich do get the nicest things; but the automatic, knee-jerk suspicion that the minority student doesn't deserve it, is what I find most deplorable.

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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by noonereal View Post
    The failed, angry old white man post that is in every thread.

    Thanks!

    But do tell me, why should a private college need to answer to anybody about who they accept?
    No but the overreaching federal government has already interfered with that. But if say Amherst figures it can fund 15 poor smart kids' education by admitting some kid whose family will pony up a million dollars-so be it. That is different than lying on applications, having bogus SAT or ACT scores, or claiming to say be a 4.05 miler or a 27 foot long jumper and getting an acceptance for athletics when one is a couch potato
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Interesting article:

    Elite Colleges Make Low-Income Students Feel Unwelcome - The Atlantic

    What is most outrageous in all of this, is the following:

    Student A - a disadvantaged student of color, very bright, hardworking, gets excellent grades, struggles financially to get into a good school but earns a merit scholarship strictly due to great grades and high scores in IQ tests (no need for affirmative action), is then able to attend a good school where he/she does very well despite all the hardships described in the article I quoted above, graduating with top honors.

    Student B - spoiled brat rich white student, mediocre, gets in because mommy and daddy cheat his/her way into the school through illegal bribery and deception, after having showered the kid with all sorts of other advantages (private tutors, testing practice, advanced software and other resources in elite prep school, etc.) but still the brat wasn't good enough to get in, but does get in eventually thanks to the illegal bribery scam, parties and boozes his/her way through school while getting horrible grades, and finally graduates last in his/her class.

    Then, Student A goes on to get a good job, but people snicker behind his/her back, insinuating that he/she is only there because of affirmative action, and doesn't deserve it.

    Student B, however, regardless of how mediocre he/she is, is never suspected of "not deserving it" and never gets the same snickering scrutiny, although this is the one who actually did NOT deserve it.

    Sure, I do understand that the world is unfair and the rich do get the nicest things; but the automatic, knee-jerk suspicion that the minority student doesn't deserve it, is what I find most deplorable.
    That is what affirmative action does-it makes the valid achievements of meritorious members of groups that are traditionally the recipients of affirmative action, look less valuable

    An example I personally witnessed 38 years ago involved a meeting at my college where the 16 or so students nominated for Rhodes or Marshall Scholarships by the university were instructed to attend a meeting with four law or medical students who had been Rhodes or Marshall Scholars. One of the Rhodes scholars- a medical student, was a quiet black man. When he was introduced, a guy behind me made some comment "we know how he got a Rhodes" etc. I was tempted to believe that comment, since I had seen blacks with much lower grades, accepted into top law and medical schools ahead of Asians and Whites with much stronger GPAs. Fortunately, I approached this med student, after the meeting ended and spent lunch with him. IIRC he was a phi beta kappa from Princeton, an all-American track athlete, who worked in a local hospital while going to school. He was the most qualified guy in the room. He noted that he always was dealing with people who doubted his credentials. He was recruited to run track for Princeton and he noted that helped get him in-even though he was top of his class at a good public school in NJ. He worried about people thinking-that when he was a doctor-that he really didn't deserve his medical degree.
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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    That is what affirmative action does-it makes the valid achievements of meritorious members of groups that are traditionally the recipients of affirmative action, look less valuable

    An example I personally witnessed 38 years ago involved a meeting at my college where the 16 or so students nominated for Rhodes or Marshall Scholarships by the university were instructed to attend a meeting with four law or medical students who had been Rhodes or Marshall Scholars. One of the Rhodes scholars- a medical student, was a quiet black man. When he was introduced, a guy behind me made some comment "we know how he got a Rhodes" etc. I was tempted to believe that comment, since I had seen blacks with much lower grades, accepted into top law and medical schools ahead of Asians and Whites with much stronger GPAs. Fortunately, I approached this med student, after the meeting ended and spent lunch with him. IIRC he was a phi beta kappa from Princeton, an all-American track athlete, who worked in a local hospital while going to school. He was the most qualified guy in the room. He noted that he always was dealing with people who doubted his credentials. He was recruited to run track for Princeton and he noted that helped get him in-even though he was top of his class at a good public school in NJ. He worried about people thinking-that when he was a doctor-that he really didn't deserve his medical degree.
    Exactly. It's extremely unfair. I bet this guy will have to face, throughout his professional life, shocked and doubtful regards every time he will enter the hospital room of white patients who didn't know that the prestigious doctor who will be treating them happens to be black.

    The most intelligent, most brilliant doctor I've ever encountered, is a very dark-skinned Indian immigrant. Deservedly, he made it all the way to becoming the chairman of his department at a very prestigious university, but there are always jerks who say he got there because of affirmative action.

    So, yes, I can see the damage that affirmative action does to these people, in terms of reputation. But on the other hand, I'm sure that affirmative action did contribute to some good people being given opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't have had, given historical poverty and oppression/exploitation of their racial groups. So, I do think that there are both positive and negative aspects to it.

    I'd be more favorable to the concept, if it is time-limited. Let's say, a country implements a program to correct some historical disadvantages, for a limited time; then when things even out a bit more, they terminate the program and allow people to freely fend for themselves.

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    Re: 'Affirmative action for the rich:' How the privileged legally game the college admissions proces

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Exactly. It's extremely unfair. I bet this guy will have to face, throughout his professional life, shocked and doubtful regards every time he will enter the hospital room of white patients who didn't know that the prestigious doctor who will be treating them happens to be black.

    The most intelligent, most brilliant doctor I've ever encountered, is a very dark-skinned Indian immigrant. Deservedly, he made it all the way to becoming the chairman of his department at a very prestigious university, but there are always jerks who say he got there because of affirmative action.

    So, yes, I can see the damage that affirmative action does to these people, in terms of reputation. But on the other hand, I'm sure that affirmative action did contribute to some good people being given opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't have had, given historical poverty and oppression/exploitation of their racial groups. So, I do think that there are both positive and negative aspects to it.

    I'd be more favorable to the concept, if it is time-limited. Let's say, a country implements a program to correct some historical disadvantages, for a limited time; then when things even out a bit more, they terminate the program and allow people to freely fend for themselves.
    I can see affirmative action working to benefit an institution if the people using it would actually do some investigation rather than seeing certain groups as "disadvantaged" etc

    I used to recruit kids to play for a D-1 College when I was a coach while I was a graduate student. And here is how affirmative action should work. Lets suppose I have one more slot for a tennis player. I have two choices-one is a rich kid. He has his own tennis court on his property and a membership to a nearby, top of the line, indoor facility. he has private coach, who takes him to all the big events-Kalamazoo, the Orange Bowl, and some of the ITF events held in the USA. He is ranked in the top 40 in the country.

    The second candidate comes from a middle class family. He plays #1 on a very good public school team. That team has a top coach who works with this boy during the season. He also attends clinics at a local public tennis facility. He attends local tournaments but his family cannot afford to send him to the big national events. However, he has played a couple of the USTA sectional events in his state and has a national ranking of 89 or so

    Now, if I went purely on rankings, the first kid should get the slot. But I have watched both boys play. I realize that the first kid has maxed out his talent. He has had every advantage-private lessons for years, a coach who travels with him, 24-7 access to indoor courts when the weather is nasty, and since he can afford to enter all the big national events, his ranking is as good as it can possibly be. Now the other boy has far less of those ranking accentuating advantages. Since he cannot play most of the most prestigious tournaments (where the most ranking points are available) his ranking suffers. Plus, only having his father, rather than a trained professional coach, advising him at tournaments, has probably hurt his achievements too. I figure that since my institution has top coaches and facilities, if this boy were to play for me, his athletic talent would -in a year or two-propel him past the other kid-who really has no room to improve. SO I choose the second boy.

    Now that is how affirmative action should work.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yeah; a shotgun IS a rifle; it uses a different load.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    You know that Reagan signed the Brady Bill - right?
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I'm smart on the gun issue and what we need to do about it.

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