• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

America is losing its teachers at a record rate

RetiredUSN said:
Take the politics and out of teaching and they will come back.

Teaching is a art form, and our good teachers should never be teaching to the test like we are doing today.
Click to expand...
Nonsense - if the test evaluates how well the students learned the information we want them to learn it's invaluable. IF the idea is that kids learn how to calculate with fractions a teacher teaching how awful Trump lies is a waste of time and money.
 
Bullseye said:
Nonsense - if the test evaluates how well the students learned the information we want them to learn it's invaluable. IF the idea is that kids learn how to calculate with fractions a teacher teaching how awful Trump lies is a waste of time and money.
Click to expand...

Yes, if.
The problem is, the test is a poor indicator of student progress. Writing samples, math samples, and reading inventories are far more accurate. I've given those tests many times, and here's what happens:

The first day, kids work on the test and do their best.
The second day, half of them are "finished" with a 40 minute test in five minutes.
The third day, even more of them are bored with the test and start marking answers at random.

At one time, the schools did what they called "matrix sampling." That meant that each student had a small portion of the test to finish, then the results were put together in an amalgam that represented the ability of the class as a whole. That was a lot more accurate, as it didn't depend on 10 year olds actually caring about a long and boring test.

Good teachers assess the ability of their kids in math, reading, and writing. They don't rely on test scores. They administer reading inventories, math samples, and writing samples. If you want to know how well kids can write, giver them a pencil, paper, and a subject to write about. That tells you much more than a standardized test.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
I think I am of the opposite mind, I would run towards those careers and try and be a advocate for my profession
Click to expand...

If you can keep that attitude during a 30 year career, I salute you. You are an asset to the nation.
 
Bullseye said:
Nonsense - if the test evaluates how well the students learned the information we want them to learn it's invaluable. IF the idea is that kids learn how to calculate with fractions a teacher teaching how awful Trump lies is a waste of time and money.
Click to expand...

You are wrong.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, if.
The problem is, the test is a poor indicator of student progress. Writing samples, math samples, and reading inventories are far more accurate. I've given those tests many times, and here's what happens:

The first day, kids work on the test and do their best.
The second day, half of them are "finished" with a 40 minute test in five minutes.
The third day, even more of them are bored with the test and start marking answers at random.

At one time, the schools did what they called "matrix sampling." That meant that each student had a small portion of the test to finish, then the results were put together in an amalgam that represented the ability of the class as a whole. That was a lot more accurate, as it didn't depend on 10 year olds actually caring about a long and boring test.

Good teachers assess the ability of their kids in math, reading, and writing. They don't rely on test scores. They administer reading inventories, math samples, and writing samples. If you want to know how well kids can write, giver them a pencil, paper, and a subject to write about. That tells you much more than a standardized test.
Click to expand...
Then make the tests more representative of the material they're supposed to learn. I'm not familiar with the test you're describing, sounds more like a group project than an assessment of what each student attained.


What other way do you have to evaluate student achievement dispassionately and uniformly. And please no "because their teacher says so" responses.
 
Bullseye said:
Then make the tests more representative of the material they're supposed to learn. I'm not familiar with the test you're describing, sounds more like a group project than an assessment of what each student attained.


What other way do you have to evaluate student achievement dispassionately and uniformly. And please no "because their teacher says so" responses.
Click to expand...

Reading inventories,
Writing samples,
Math samples,
tests that kids can complete before their attention span is totally obliterated.

Not an hours long multi choice test.
 
Bucky said:
You forgot all the pedophiles becoming teachers and acting out their sexual urges.
Click to expand...

Pedophiles have always gone into professions that put them in proximity to their potential victims including marrying or dating women with children. At least you have to pass a background check to teach.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Reading inventories,
Writing samples,
Math samples,
tests that kids can complete before their attention span is totally obliterated.

Not an hours long multi choice test.
Click to expand...
And they provide quantitative, comparable and consist results? To be honest I have no idea exactly what each entails. Could you expound? For instance what is a "math sample" or a "reading inventory"?
 
Bullseye said:
And they provide quantitative, comparable and consist results? To be honest I have no idea exactly what each entails. Could you expound? For instance what is a "math sample" or a "reading inventory"?
Click to expand...

A reading inventory consists of a series of graded paragraphs that the student reads out loud, then silently. After the reading, the teacher asks a series of questions to determine comprehension. The test results in a grade level of reading competence and indicates which skills the student does and doesn't have. Some kids, for example, can read fluently, but have no idea what they've read. Others may read more slowly and mispronounce words, but they understand what the paragraph is about. it's time consuming, but gives an accurate reading of each student's ability and which skills need to be emphasized in order for them to improve.

A writing sample is just that, the student writes about a subject, then there is a grading sheet that the teacher uses to assure that grading is as consistent and objective as possible. It tells how the student is doing in grammar and spelling as well as in the ability to express himself.
 
Dittohead not! said:
A reading inventory consists of a series of graded paragraphs that the student reads out loud, then silently. After the reading, the teacher asks a series of questions to determine comprehension. The test results in a grade level of reading competence and indicates which skills the student does and doesn't have. Some kids, for example, can read fluently, but have no idea what they've read. Others may read more slowly and mispronounce words, but they understand what the paragraph is about. it's time consuming, but gives an accurate reading of each student's ability and which skills need to be emphasized in order for them to improve.

A writing sample is just that, the student writes about a subject, then there is a grading sheet that the teacher uses to assure that grading is as consistent and objective as possible. It tells how the student is doing in grammar and spelling as well as in the ability to express himself.
Click to expand...
Ok, thanks. It sounds like in each case the result is evaluated by the teacher, is that correct? If so, how does that give us broad, comparable, and dispassionate evaluations of how the schools and teachers are doing?
 
Bullseye said:
Ok, thanks. It sounds like in each case the result is evaluated by the teacher, is that correct? If so, how does that give us broad, comparable, and dispassionate evaluations of how the schools and teachers are doing?
Click to expand...

Students number their samples rather than writing their names. Then, teachers trade samples. The teacher doing the grading doesn't know who the student is who did the writing, and the teacher is not evaluating his/her own class.

Reading inventories are more for the teacher's information than anything. I'm not sure how you would evaluate schools on that basis unless a third person were in the classroom or pulling the kids out to do the inventory.

Evaluating schools on the basis of test scores of any sort is problematic. For one thing, there would have to be a test at the beginning of the year, another at the end of the year for comparison. Many schools have a high turnover, and don't end the year with the same students. Anyway, test results are more dependent on outside factors: Home language, parents' educational level, poverty level, many factors outside of the schools' control.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Students number their samples rather than writing their names. Then, teachers trade samples. The teacher doing the grading doesn't know who the student is who did the writing, and the teacher is not evaluating his/her own class.

Reading inventories are more for the teacher's information than anything. I'm not sure how you would evaluate schools on that basis unless a third person were in the classroom or pulling the kids out to do the inventory.

Evaluating schools on the basis of test scores of any sort is problematic. For one thing, there would have to be a test at the beginning of the year, another at the end of the year for comparison. Many schools have a high turnover, and don't end the year with the same students. Anyway, test results are more dependent on outside factors: Home language, parents' educational level, poverty level, many factors outside of the schools' control.
Click to expand...
Even so, I believe an objective test at the end of the year coupled with concrete specifications of what a student is expected to know at the end of each grade would be a more accurate assessment. Having teachers at the same school doing the evaluation seems to create a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" situation.
 
Bullseye said:
Even so, I believe an objective test at the end of the year coupled with concrete specifications of what a student is expected to know at the end of each grade would be a more accurate assessment. Having teachers at the same school doing the evaluation seems to create a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" situation.
Click to expand...

That could happen should teachers be evaluated based on test scores.
The standardized multiple guess tests that the public relies on to determine how well schools are doing is an inaccurate measure of student progress. Good teachers do not rely on them to guide instruction.
 
Dittohead not! said:
That could happen should teachers be evaluated based on test scores.
The standardized multiple guess tests that the public relies on to determine how well schools are doing is an inaccurate measure of student progress. Good teachers do not rely on them to guide instruction.
Click to expand...
See, the problem for us non-educators is that while educators consistently appeal to the "trust us, we're professionals and we're doing a great job" we see stats like 40-60% of new college freshmen require remedial courses in English and math before pursuing studies at a college level. And having teachers evaluated based on test scores isn't all bad, although I understand teachers at lower performing schools may be disadvantaged. "Multiple guess" tests are, as far as I can see, the most effective way of evaluation student achievement in many subjects, e.g. math, science, etc.
 
Why would they stay. One political party demonizes them to the point people think they're greedy leaches.

they work long hours, face constant benefit and pay cuts, tax payer backlash due to political nonsense, and a hideous wall of confrontation from the GOP.

I don't blame them.

You attract top talent by paying top prices, and as it stands, the GOP is working hand over fist to refuse this. All in the plan to privatize the system, of course.
 
Bullseye said:
See, the problem for us non-educators is that while educators consistently appeal to the "trust us, we're professionals and we're doing a great job" we see stats like 40-60% of new college freshmen require remedial courses in English and math before pursuing studies at a college level. And having teachers evaluated based on test scores isn't all bad, although I understand teachers at lower performing schools may be disadvantaged. "Multiple guess" tests are, as far as I can see, the most effective way of evaluation student achievement in many subjects, e.g. math, science, etc.
Click to expand...

Multiple guess tests suck at evaluating student progress.

And the parent's educational level, in particular the mother's, determines the child's academic ability far more than the school he/she attends. If teachers at the inner city schools were to have to get students to perform on a difficult academic test, my guess is that none of them would succeed.

The number of college freshmen who have to take remedial courses as more dependent on the goal for the schools, set by the government, of preparing every student for college level work. Not every student has the ability and the inclination for college level work. Many of them should be in vocational education during high school. We really need more air conditioning experts and auto mechanics, but not so many lawyers.

That's not to say schools shouldn't have to show academic performance, or be evaluated on the performance of the students, just that the current way of doing it is not accurate.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Multiple guess tests suck at evaluating student progress.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty broad statement - seems like they would be perfect for questions with only one correct answer. For instance if the child was supposed to learn squares and square roots and asked with is the square root of 25 - there is only one correct response. Similarly "what is the capital of Germany" or what is the area of a 2X3 inch rectangle.

Dittohead said:
And the parent's educational level, in particular the mother's, determines the child's academic ability far more than the school he/she attends. If teachers at the inner city schools were to have to get students to perform on a difficult academic test, my guess is that none of them would succeed.
Click to expand...
Then don't promote them until they do.
[quotr=Dittohead]
The number of college freshmen who have to take remedial courses as more dependent on the goal for the schools, set by the government, of preparing every student for college level work. Not every student has the ability and the inclination for college level work. Many of them should be in vocational education during high school. We really need more air conditioning experts and auto mechanics, but not so many lawyers. [/quote]Oh, come ON! We're talking about students already ADMITTED to college, allegedly the "cream of the crop".

Dittohead said:
That's not to say schools shouldn't have to show academic performance, or be evaluated on the performance of the students, just that the current way of doing it is not accurate.
Click to expand...
I'd say it's far more accurate than the "inventories" and "samples" you described above.
 
Bullseye said:
1 That's a pretty broad statement - seems like they would be perfect for questions with only one correct answer. For instance if the child was supposed to learn squares and square roots and asked with is the square root of 25 - there is only one correct response. Similarly "what is the capital of Germany" or what is the area of a 2X3 inch rectangle.

Then don't promote them until they do.
[quotr=Dittohead]
2 The number of college freshmen who have to take remedial courses as more dependent on the goal for the schools, set by the government, of preparing every student for college level work. Not every student has the ability and the inclination for college level work. Many of them should be in vocational education during high school. We really need more air conditioning experts and auto mechanics, but not so many lawyers.
Click to expand...
Oh, come ON! We're talking about students already ADMITTED to college, allegedly the "cream of the crop".

3 I'd say it's far more accurate than the "inventories" and "samples" you described above.[/QUOTE]

1. Yes, they do OK in memorization of facts sort of tests. A much better assessment of math ability would be a question like:

You have a credit card balance of $10,000 financed at 18% per annum. Your minimum payment is $150 per month. How long will it take to pay off the balance paying only the minimums?

That's not only math, but life skills as well.

2. If 50% of the graduating seniors go to college, the average academic ability is likely to be lower than it will if the top 20% attend. That's another math problem.

3. That's because you've never had to assess the ability of a class so as to guide instruction and put kids in reading groups. If you had, you'd know I'm right. The purpose of those assessments is not to grade the school, the teacher, or even the students. The purpose is to guide instruction so you're not boring the kids or teaching over their heads.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Oh, come ON! We're talking about students already ADMITTED to college, allegedly the "cream of the crop".

3 I'd say it's far more accurate than the "inventories" and "samples" you described above.
Click to expand...

1. Yes, they do OK in memorization of facts sort of tests. A much better assessment of math ability would be a question like:

You have a credit card balance of $10,000 financed at 18% per annum. Your minimum payment is $150 per month. How long will it take to pay off the balance paying only the minimums?

That's not only math, but life skills as well. [/quote]LOL, let's get them proficient in math and THEN apply them to life skills.
Dittohead not said:
2. If 50% of the graduating seniors go to college, the average academic ability is likely to be lower than it will if the top 20% attend. That's another math problem.
Click to expand...
Not sure of your point.
Dittohead said:
3. That's because you've never had to assess the ability of a class so as to guide instruction and put kids in reading groups. If you had, you'd know I'm right. The purpose of those assessments is not to grade the school, the teacher, or even the students. The purpose is to guide instruction so you're not boring the kids or teaching over their heads.
Click to expand...
These are all just educational jabberwocky. I'm looking for a concise, accurate and comparable means to assess student achievement.
 
Dittohead not! said:
America Is Losing Its Teachers at a Record Rate



Teachers are indeed leaving for a variety of reasons. I think that there are many factors unrelated to pay and benefits that make teaching more difficult than it used to be: gangs, out of touch bureaucrats calling the shots, too many children from dysfunctional families, more responsibility for the school and less for the parents, there are many factors behind teachers' decision to find another career.



Click to expand...

I taught for 33 years in the public schools. If I were twenty years old today - I would NOT go into education because the job today is far far different than the job I went into in 1972. Today, you teach to standardized state tests and all the freedom to teach has been flushed down the toilet. I taught Government and History and some of my absolute best lessons happened as a result of hearing the news that morning on the radio. Today, with a very strict timeline and imposed lesson plan in place from on high, that could not happen. That is NOT teaching. It is parroting what somebody else told you to parrot, when they want you to parrot it.

No thank you.

In addition, I had important union protections in all aspects of my job. Those are pretty much gone today and you are an annual renewable employee or even worse - an at will employee. Mediocre pay and average benefits is a poor swap for a loss of job security for ones family.

For those two reasons - I would not teach today.
 
Bullseye said:
LOL, let's get them proficient in math and THEN apply them to life skills.
Click to expand...


Why? Why not teach them that math has applications in the real world? Seems to me they'd be more motivated to learn it. Then, give them real world problems to solve. There are a lot of people who know the square root of 25, but are math illiterate when it comes to practical problems.

Bullseye said:
Not sure of your point.
Click to expand...

If we only sent the most able and motivated students on to college, there wouldn't be so much need for remedial classes. As it is now, schools are geared up to send every student on to college. That's an unrealistic goal.

Bullseye said:
These are all just educational jabberwocky. I'm looking for a concise, accurate and comparable means to assess student achievement.
Click to expand...

Then the best solution would be to go back to matrix sampling. We used to do that, years ago: Each student would take a 20 or 30 minute section of a test that takes 5 or 6 hours to complete, then the scores are put together into a whole. That way, children aren't asked to try to concentrate on something that they don't really care about for hours, and will be much more likely to actually read the test questions.

Even better today: Put the questions on a computer and give some immediate reward for correct answers. That would keep their attention even better.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Why? Why not teach them that math has applications in the real world? Seems to me they'd be more motivated to learn it. Then, give them real world problems to solve. There are a lot of people who know the square root of 25, but are math illiterate when it comes to practical problems.
Click to expand...
I wasn't advocating ignoring the real world applications of math. My point is rather to teach the fundamentals and THEN show the applications.


Dittohead not said:
If we only sent the most able and motivated students on to college, there wouldn't be so much need for remedial classes. As it is now, schools are geared up to send every student on to college. That's an unrealistic goal.
Click to expand...
What college accepts every applicant, let alone every student.


Dittohead not said:
Then the best solution would be to go back to matrix sampling. We used to do that, years ago: Each student would take a 20 or 30 minute section of a test that takes 5 or 6 hours to complete, then the scores are put together into a whole. That way, children aren't asked to try to concentrate on something that they don't really care about for hours, and will be much more likely to actually read the test questions.
Click to expand...
No, I'm not looking for group projects. Each student is tested on his/her own. IMHO, you don't educate students to entertain them, teaching concentration and doing work because you have to whether you like it or not are beneficial side effects.
Dittohead not said:
Even better today: Put the questions on a computer and give some immediate reward for correct answers. That would keep their attention even better.
Click to expand...
Interactive testing is not a bad idea.
 
Bullseye said:
I wasn't advocating ignoring the real world applications of math. My point is rather to teach the fundamentals and THEN show the applications.


What college accepts every applicant, let alone every student.


No, I'm not looking for group projects. Each student is tested on his/her own. IMHO, you don't educate students to entertain them, teaching concentration and doing work because you have to whether you like it or not are beneficial side effects.
Interactive testing is not a bad idea.
Click to expand...

Interactive testing is a good idea.

I'm not advocating for a group project. Follow my reasoning:
Assessing an individual student is best done by means other than a standardized multiple choice sort of test.
Therefore, the purpose of said test is to assess how well the student body of a school is doing as a whole, so that school A can be compared to school B.
Students, particularly younger ones, don't have the attention span to take an hours long test and apply themselves to it. Therefore, the results of such a test are highly questionable.
Therefore, the idea of having each student take a part of the test and then put the results together makes sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom