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Push to Get Books Off of Required Reading Lists

roguenuke

roguenuke

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Okay, so this question comes about from a post I read in a private group on Facebook. A mother said she went to the school to talk to them about removing a book her son had to read, Slaughterhouse Five, from the required reading list due to the content within the book. I've never read the book myself but read a brief synopsis of it, which sounds like the sex part she didn't approve of was found at the end of the book mainly.

So, my question is have you or would you push to get a book removed from the required reading list for its content? Mind you, this is not saying that the book would be banned from the school, not allowed to be read by students, only that it could not be required reading.

Now, personally, not only would I say no I have not nor would I do this, I would strongly voice my opinion on how wrong such a thing is to be done for the feelings of even a few parents. So long as the book can be shown to have good, relevant content for the class/grade the student is required to read it for, I don't think parents should be making such decisions. Anyone could be offended by any book, especially the best ones.
 
No, I wouldn’t push to have a book removed for content. That said, there are only so many books that can be assigned and I think there is validity in reconsidering if the old standards are still the best ones to assign. There may be newer books that are worthy of taking the place of some of the older ones. But I would never base such a switch on protecting kids from controversial or disturbing content. At a certain age we have to stop protecting our kids from the world and start teaching them how to face it.
 
After a discussion I participated in about requiring black children to read the n-word, I have to say I'm fine with parent input about required reading lists.

Beyond the benefit of having involved parents, I'm going to respect parents' concerns about objectionable material.

Not really big on a school saying "we know better than you what's good for your kids". Maybe there is some area where the school can get away with that. But a Vonnegut book is not where I would choose to fight that battle against parents.
 
When we were issued the ‘summer reading list’ all the air went out of my sails, looking forward to the break from school. As to the example by Vonnegut (sp?), I tried to read it a few years ago and found that I couldn’t get very far.......sorry, don’t want to sidetrack.
 
man, removing Slaughterhouse Five? i'm going to have to go with no on that. great book.
 
We think we are, but we are not doing our kids any favors with this sort of thing.
 
Slaughter House Five is required reading? Thats news to me. I cant help but wonder why they would include that. Required reading during my time in high school was stuff like The Martian Chronicles or the Hobbit as a freshman, then we moved onto Count of Monte Cristo and For Whom the Bell Tolls as sophomores and juniors, then finally Wuthering Heights and Shakespeare as seniors because we were studying English lit. I just cant imagine a Vonnegut novel fitting into a learning curriculum unless its an elective.
 
Amelia said:
After a discussion I participated in about requiring black children to read the n-word, I have to say I'm fine with parent input about required reading lists.

Beyond the benefit of having involved parents, I'm going to respect parents' concerns about objectionable material.

Not really big on a school saying "we know better than you what's good for your kids". Maybe there is some area where the school can get away with that. But a Vonnegut book is not where I would choose to fight that battle against parents.
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Even if it is a matter of kids having to read the "n" word, I'd say that is still a matter of exposing teens to material that they will have to see or come into contact with as adults. It is absolutely ridiculous to censor such things (such as by removing a book from required reading) simply because parents want to shelter their children from such exposures. Why would it not be much better for you to discuss the usage of that word, especially when used in literature, with your child/children? It could easily develop into a discussion of different cultural mores and times, as well as why it developed into something that should not be used in conversations or as an acceptable word now.
 
How old is the kid? Slaughterhouse Five is a great book.
 
I have no problem with people having input concerning works on "required" reading lists and the like. That said, normally there is some kind of body set up to determine the content of these lists. If that body is somewhat representative of the overall applicable population and/or allows for their input into the process (student parents, for example), I would not be especially sympathetic to some parent expressing objections after-the-fact. The old adage "you can't please everybody" applies.

On the other hand, if, as is becoming all too common, the body determining the list is some private star chamber of "professionals" that is too arrogant to solicit the input of impacted stakeholders, then I'm going to support the complaining party and at least get them a fair hearing of their concerns.
 
PoS said:
Slaughter House Five is required reading? Thats news to me. I cant help but wonder why they would include that. Required reading during my time in high school was stuff like The Martian Chronicles or the Hobbit as a freshman, then we moved onto Count of Monte Cristo and For Whom the Bell Tolls as sophomores and juniors, then finally Wuthering Heights and Shakespeare as seniors because we were studying English lit. I just cant imagine a Vonnegut novel fitting into a learning curriculum unless its an elective.
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Why not? It seems to be a story about a journey of a man's life which includes some history (and discussion about the implications and consequences of events within history), a look into the changing dynamics of characters and their philosophies on life in relation to the experiences they go through, and learning to look at things from other POVs. (Mind you, I haven't read this book but have read a synopsis on it that leads me to these conclusions. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Most schools have highly varied required reading lists, many having at least 2 such lists for each grade, one for regular classrooms and another for Honors/AP classes. I had to read Billy Budd and something else (just can't remember) my freshman summer, and Night and All's Quiet on the Western Front (which I hated, so boring and hard to get into) my sophomore summer. We read lots of other books/stories during the year that were required though. The novels I read in my Senior year were mainly chosen by me but had to be written about within a major paper. I've seen reading lists with mainly newer books, no classics, some with all classics, no new novels, and a mix of the two (most common).
 
PoS said:
Slaughter House Five is required reading? Thats news to me. I cant help but wonder why they would include that. Required reading during my time in high school was stuff like The Martian Chronicles or the Hobbit as a freshman, then we moved onto Count of Monte Cristo and For Whom the Bell Tolls as sophomores and juniors, then finally Wuthering Heights and Shakespeare as seniors because we were studying English lit. I just cant imagine a Vonnegut novel fitting into a learning curriculum unless its an elective.
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My junior summer, “Crime and Punishment” was required reading; I still haven’t read it, but it is on my list. The bolded brings to mind the great line in Shawshank Redemption.





Is there still “Cliff Notes” and “Classic Comics?”


Then there is this one:

 
Skeptic Bob said:
No, I wouldn’t push to have a book removed for content. That said, there are only so many books that can be assigned and I think there is validity in reconsidering if the old standards are still the best ones to assign. There may be newer books that are worthy of taking the place of some of the older ones. But I would never base such a switch on protecting kids from controversial or disturbing content. At a certain age we have to stop protecting our kids from the world and start teaching them how to face it.
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Public schools are a privilege, not a right, and are open to all. As such you will never get a consensus on anything. Christians would take issue with the Queran, Muslims the bible. Perhaps a multiple choice opt out of one might work.

If you find yourself and your beliefs at odds with the curriculum, home or private schooling is the option.
 
roguenuke said:
Even if it is a matter of kids having to read the "n" word, I'd say that is still a matter of exposing teens to material that they will have to see or come into contact with as adults. It is absolutely ridiculous to censor such things (such as by removing a book from required reading) simply because parents want to shelter their children from such exposures. Why would it not be much better for you to discuss the usage of that word, especially when used in literature, with your child/children? It could easily develop into a discussion of different cultural mores and times, as well as why it developed into something that should not be used in conversations or as an acceptable word now.
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I firmly maintain that it is the parents' decision when and how to discuss the n-word with the children. And that schedule should not be set by a government agent such as a teacher or school board.

I remain completely opposed to the notion that against a parent's objections a school should be able to require a black child to read the n-word, with the child quite possibly being graded on their reaction to it.
 
jimbo said:
Public schools are a privilege, not a right, and are open to all. As such you will never get a consensus on anything. Christians would take issue with the Queran, Muslims the bible. Perhaps a multiple choice opt out of one might work.

If you find yourself and your beliefs at odds with the curriculum, home or private schooling is the option.
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I also don't think either the Quran or the Bible should be required reading. Forcing children to read something that their parents object to won't cure bias -- it will just entrench resentments. And home schooling or private schooling shouldn't be the only remedy for a state school making objectionable requirements.

Multiple choice would work. The requirement could be "read at least 20 books from this comprehensive list".
 
Amelia said:
I firmly maintain that it is the parents' decision when and how to discuss the n-word with the children. And that schedule should not be set by a government agent such as a teacher or school board.

I remain completely opposed to the notion that against a parent's objections a school should be able to require a black child to read the n-word, with the child quite possibly being graded on their reaction to it.
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What? They would not most likely be graded on their reaction to it. Unless they centered their entire understanding of the book off of the use of that single word, which shows other issues are present. Additionally, there are many schools that will allow individual students to substitute a book if it is that offensive to them. Which is something that needs to be discussed beforehand, not after. And, parents are free to find alternative schooling options that would not require them to read such books and allow them to shelter their children to their heart's desire. And this goes for anyone's child. I feel the same way about the father who was upset his daughter had to read Fahrenheit 451 because he found it offensive that they were burning the Bible within that book. They even said she could read an alternate book, and he still was trying to push for its removal.
 
Amelia said:
I also don't think either the Quran or the Bible should be required reading. Forcing children to read something that their parents object to won't cure bias -- it will just entrench resentments.

Multiple choice would work. The requirement could be "read at least 20 books from this comprehensive list".
Click to expand...

Neither the Koran or Bible (or any other holy scripture in its entirety for that matter) could be required reading due simply to our laws and court precedence on those particular topics.
 
Would be sad if a public school was so unimaginative that they only solution they could come up with for a parent objecting to something on the reading list was, "If you don't like it, you can pay for private school or teach your children at home."

If the school is so unimaginative, then it has a lot more wrong with it than its reading list.
 
roguenuke said:
Okay, so this question comes about from a post I read in a private group on Facebook. A mother said she went to the school to talk to them about removing a book her son had to read, Slaughterhouse Five, from the required reading list due to the content within the book. I've never read the book myself but read a brief synopsis of it, which sounds like the sex part she didn't approve of was found at the end of the book mainly.

So, my question is have you or would you push to get a book removed from the required reading list for its content? Mind you, this is not saying that the book would be banned from the school, not allowed to be read by students, only that it could not be required reading.

Now, personally, not only would I say no I have not nor would I do this, I would strongly voice my opinion on how wrong such a thing is to be done for the feelings of even a few parents. So long as the book can be shown to have good, relevant content for the class/grade the student is required to read it for, I don't think parents should be making such decisions. Anyone could be offended by any book, especially the best ones.
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I'm not sure what you read about the book. I suggest reading it, or at least referring to SparkNotes

Red:
  • I have not.
  • I would not.
    • I would not because faculties generally develop integrated curricula whereby the content in history, art, foreign languages, theology/comparative religion, and/or literature courses in particular (though not exclusively) complement or supplement one another. Thus concepts that can't, usually for time's sake, can't be covered in, say history, may be addressed, albeit from a different departure point, in English. Similarly, while literature is an ideal foil for developing students' comprehension of the human condition, history is too and thus makes for a fine context for a paper/presentation on, say, "manifestations of hubris and their consequences as shown by Renaissance monarchs," or any number of other analyses of humanity. Such pedagogical overlap of topics, learning objectives is no surprise among such subjects. They are collectively, after all, the humanities.

      The consequence of removing a text from a student's curricula is that of denying the student a piece of the learning his instructors think important and have chosen to deliver using, in the example you've cited, Slaughterhouse Five. Could the concepts be taught to the boy be taught the concepts using a different text? Probably, but (1) the school's not going to teach it one way, using SH5, for all the other students and another way for that woman's son and (2) the coherence of the overall curriculum for that year/semester/quarter/trimester/month/week could well be fouled by removal of a given text.

      You may find useful for understanding further the ideas I've above expressed this document -- Penguin Books Teacher's Guide to Slaughterhouse Five -- and particularly the "teaching ideas" section.
    • I would not also because I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to think that I know better than the teaching professionals at my kid's school the pedagogy they are using, as well as the overall aptness or lack thereof of a given text within a given year's curriculum. Teachers and school curriculum developers pretty much always have an educational plan that's been very carefully designed. Why would I deign to "throw a wrench in it?" If I wanted to design the pedagogy and curriculum by which my child (children) obtain their education, I may as well homeschool them.


Other:
That woman's objection is hardly the first lodged against Slaughterhouse Five. The novel explores humanity's irrationality, free will, and destiny. The sex isn't what riles most folks who take exception with it.

​
 
Xelor said:
I'm not sure what you read about the book. I suggest reading it, or at least referring to SparkNotes

Red:
  • I have not.
  • I would not.
    • I would not because faculties generally develop integrated curricula whereby the content in history, art, foreign languages, theology/comparative religion, and/or literature courses in particular (though not exclusively) complement or supplement one another. Thus concepts that can't, usually for time's sake, can't be covered in, say history, may be addressed, albeit from a different departure point, in English. Similarly, while literature is an ideal foil for developing students' comprehension of the human condition, history is too and thus makes for a fine context for a paper/presentation on, say, "manifestations of hubris and their consequences as shown by Renaissance monarchs," or any number of other analyses of humanity. Such pedagogical overlap of topics, learning objectives is no surprise among such subjects. They are collectively, after all, the humanities.

      The consequence of removing a text from a student's curricula is that of denying the student a piece of the learning his instructors think important and have chosen to deliver using, in the example you've cited, Slaughterhouse Five. Could the concepts be taught to the boy be taught the concepts using a different text? Probably, but (1) the school's not going to teach it one way, using SH5, for all the other students and another way for that woman's son and (2) the coherence of the overall curriculum for that year/semester/quarter/trimester/month/week could well be fouled by removal of a given text.

      You may find useful for understanding further the ideas I've above expressed this document -- Penguin Books Teacher's Guide to Slaughterhouse Five -- and particularly the "teaching ideas" section.
    • I would not also because I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to think that I know better than the teaching professionals at my kid's school the pedagogy they are using, as well as the overall aptness or lack thereof of a given text within a given year's curriculum. Teachers and school curriculum developers pretty much always have an educational plan that's been very carefully designed. Why would I deign to "throw a wrench in it?" If I wanted to design the pedagogy and curriculum by which my child (children) obtain their education, I may as well homeschool them.


Other:
That woman's objection is hardly the first lodged against Slaughterhouse Five. The novel explores humanity's irrationality, free will, and destiny. The sex isn't what riles most folks who take exception with it.

​
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In this case, it was specifically commented that her issue was with the sex part. In fact, she said what brought her attention to it was her son repeated the word "hard-on", as if he was questioning it (which is sort of odd for a 14 year old to not know). Then she said she read some of that particular part of the book and that it talked about a porn store (or someone selling porn) and people having sex. She noted he was within the last 10 pages of the book.
 
Amelia said:
I also don't think either the Quran or the Bible should be required reading. Forcing children to read something that their parents object to won't cure bias -- it will just entrench resentments.

Multiple choice would work. The requirement could be "read at least 20 books from this comprehensive list".
Click to expand...

I don't disagree. To avoid cherry picking, I'd narrow the list to multiple multiple choices (First choice 1 from A,B,C; second 1 from D,E, F).

Again, though, if you find the curriculum not to your liking, there are other choices.
 
Amelia said:
Would be sad if a public school was so unimaginative that they only solution they could come up with for a parent objecting to something on the reading list was, "If you don't like it, you can pay for private school or teach your children at home."

If the school is so unimaginative, then it has a lot more wrong with it than its reading list.
Click to expand...

So teachers should have to teach to multiple different books (which likely have multiple different themes, some that could not all be discussed well in the short time schools have to teach or important points of the main book not found in those others) due to people complaining about a book's content? It isn't like they are being made to actually read porn or books that are put out with very little content just to get them reading. Most books on a required reading list are there for the purpose of having an indepth literary discussion on them involving the class. What happens if those things are mentioned in the class by their classmates? Oh no, my Johnny cannot hear those words, about those things.
 
roguenuke said:
So teachers should have to teach to multiple different books (which likely have multiple different themes, some that could not all be discussed well in the short time schools have to teach or important points of the main book not found in those others) due to people complaining about a book's content? It isn't like they are being made to actually read porn or books that are put out with very little content just to get them reading. Most books on a required reading list are there for the purpose of having an indepth literary discussion on them involving the class. What happens if those things are mentioned in the class by their classmates? Oh no, my Johnny cannot hear those words, about those things.
Click to expand...


All I know is that for the n-word, it's up to the parents to decide when and how their children learn about it. It should not be the government's decision. Oh, of course many will learn about it on the street, but that's a different matter. Children should feel safe at school. The lone black child in some barely segregated area shouldn't be subjected to feeling put on the spot when all eyes turning his way when the n-word gets read aloud in class.

And since I want to give parents latitude to object if schools require their children to sit still and take it as the n-word is read and discussed in class, I allow other parents similar latitude for other subjects they object to.

If schools show that they will be open-minded and accommodating, maybe the parents and children will decide that it really is a safe environment for those discussions. But if it is condescendingly forced, then that is a problem. And tax payers should not be given "accept it or leave the school" as their only options.


I'm not going to change my mind on this.
 
Amelia said:
All I know is that for the n-word, it's up to the parents to decide when and how their children learn about it. It should not be the government's decision. Children should feel safe at school. The lone black child in some barely segregated area shouldn't be subjected to feeling put on the spot when all eyes turning his way when the n-word gets read aloud in class.

And since I want to give parents latitude to object if schools require their children to sit still and take it as the n-word is read and discussed in class, I allow other parents similar latitude for other subjects they object to.

If schools show that they will be open-minded and accommodating, maybe the parents and children will decide that it really is a safe environment for those discussions. But if it is condescendingly forced, then that is a problem. And tax payers should not be given "accept it or leave the school" as their only options.


I'm not going to change my mind on this.
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think anyone is special and no one should get a special excuse to avoid having to read certain words or material due to "sensitive nature". Especially not when those same kids are almost certainly being exposed to music that has that same word in it sometime during their teen years.
 
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