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Proficiency Tests

Proficiency Tests

  • For

    Votes: 5 62.5%
  • Against

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8

xMathFanx

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Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?
 
Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?

I doubt that many colleges would allow test outs or even course credit transfers from another college to count in other than elective courses. Not only would that be a significant loss of revenue it would allow taking a test or two and getting a degree from a prestigious university based on barely squeaking by on most (if not all) such "accreditation" tests.
 
Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?

Many colleges already give you the option of testing out of many classes, however, in the science field there is a lab aspect that simply cannot be done with multiple choice tests or essay alone for some parts of the degree.

I don't think you could come up with a standardized test in an entire non-science degree program that would be recognized in the entire country. Also, passing a multiple choice test and submitting an essay doesn't make you knowledgeable in a field.

I am against standardized testing because I don't think it demonstrates properly the knowledge of a person, but rather demonstrates their test taking ability. For example we had a guy who would get test anxiety and freeze during tests and do horribly with them but if you asked him to demonstrate his knowledge and ability with actual work, he would wipe the floor with many who scored in the highest percentiles in the tests.
 
Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?

In my classes the exam is not even worth the majority of your mark, it is usually group work and other assignments which cannot simply be tested out of. And there is no test for group communication skills or leadership in a business setting. There are many skills that cannot be tested with a simple exam.
 
In my classes the exam is not even worth the majority of your mark, it is usually group work and other assignments which cannot simply be tested out of. And there is no test for group communication skills or leadership in a business setting. There are many skills that cannot be tested with a simple exam.

@Carjosse & Praxas

I think your view of what an 'exam' consists of is too limited--there is no reason, in principle, qualified professional(s) could not be there to oversee/test the individual(s) one-on-one or in a group verbally, through presentation, lab experience, ect. ect., as is already done for PhD Thesis Defense, for instance.

Also, if one passes the GRE Subject Tests for Math, Physics, ect. ect., then that does indeed display talent on par with a BA/BS--it is (nearly) inconceivable a person without such knowledge would be able to do well.
 
I doubt that many colleges would allow test outs or even course credit transfers from another college to count in other than elective courses. Not only would that be a significant loss of revenue it would allow taking a test or two and getting a degree from a prestigious university based on barely squeaking by on most (if not all) such "accreditation" tests.

@ttwtt

That is actually the point--Universities have extremely high incentive not to admit this as it would destroy their business model. However, that does not mean it is not feasible--which it is.

As for prestige of degree, it is perfectly conceivable to create several classes of 'Proficiency Tests' for a given discipline, all of differing difficulty level--call it Class A, B, C. Class A test could be on par with an MIT (i.e. elite) level exam, Class B with a 50-100 level school exam, Class C with 101+ or fundamental knowledge.
 
Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?

My undergraduate university allowed that (at least way back when I was a student). I tested out of first year Chemistry by essentially acing the final exams. There were also placement tests when entering to determine which level of math you would have to start with.
 
@Carjosse & Praxas

I think your view of what an 'exam' consists of is too limited--there is no reason, in principle, qualified professional(s) could not be there to oversee/test the individual(s) one-on-one or in a group verbally, through presentation, lab experience, ect. ect., as is already done for PhD Thesis Defense, for instance.

Also, if one passes the GRE Subject Tests for Math, Physics, ect. ect., then that does indeed display talent on par with a BA/BS--it is (nearly) inconceivable a person without such knowledge would be able to do well.

But you can't really test soft skills and with a business degree that is where a lot of the emphasis lies, they can only be demonstrated in a real situation.
 
My undergraduate university allowed that (at least way back when I was a student). I tested out of first year Chemistry by essentially acing the final exams. There were also placement tests when entering to determine which level of math you would have to start with.

@Ikari

Yes--they will allow it for a very limited range; which actually concedes the feasibility of it. However, they will never admit this model could be expanded for the entire degree system, as it would destroy the business model immediately. Though, consider, if it is possible to 'placement test' out of Single Variable Calculus, then it is possible to design a test(s) on par with the entire Undergraduate Mathematics curriculum, which would demonstrate proficiency worthy of earning a BA/BS in the subject.
 
But you can't really test soft skills and with a business degree that is where a lot of the emphasis lies, they can only be demonstrated in a real situation.

@Carjosse

I agree--some subject areas will require more 'hands-on' experience testing (that University training provides), which would exclude the option I am promoting for a discipline such as Mathematics (where one really could simply take a test).
 
@ttwtt

That is actually the point--Universities have extremely high incentive not to admit this as it would destroy their business model. However, that does not mean it is not feasible--which it is.

As for prestige of degree, it is perfectly conceivable to create several classes of 'Proficiency Tests' for a given discipline, all of differing difficulty level--call it Class A, B, C. Class A test could be on par with an MIT (i.e. elite) level exam, Class B with a 50-100 level school exam, Class C with 101+ or fundamental knowledge.

We already have levels of proficiency, e.g. AA or BA vs. MA, my point was that one can be a doctor or military officer whether they went to the best or worst accredited college. That is the problem that we now have with a HS diploma - it does not even mean that one can read above the 7th grade level much less know how to balance a checkbook or perform other simple calculations.
 
We already have levels of proficiency, e.g. BA vs. MA,

BA vs MA is testing a further range of knowledge, beyond that of a the prior degree level. However, the 'Class' system I submitted is intended to address the difference between rigor of testing at various Colleges/Universities; as taking a Single Variable Calculus exam at MIT is much, much more difficult than an exam on the same topic given at a standard state-sponsored public school (which are unranked).
 
I am against standardized testing because I don't think it demonstrates properly the knowledge of a person, but rather demonstrates their test taking ability. For example we had a guy who would get test anxiety and freeze during tests and do horribly with them but if you asked him to demonstrate his knowledge and ability with actual work, he would wipe the floor with many who scored in the highest percentiles in the tests.

Yet, student who do better in class, generally do better on the standardized exam. Of course there will be anomalies, many of which can be mitigated with special accomidations, but that doesn't mean that standardized testing is bunk.
 
Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?

Sorry.

A test is not valid proof that you know all the details needed to be a master of a discipline.

It just shows you can take a test.
 
BA vs MA is testing a further range of knowledge, beyond that of a the prior degree level. However, the 'Class' system I submitted is intended to address the difference between rigor of testing at various Colleges/Universities; as taking a Single Variable Calculus exam at MIT is much, much more difficult than an exam on the same topic given at a standard state-sponsored public school (which are unranked).

Unranked does not mean unaccredited - which was my point.
 
Unranked does not mean unaccredited - which was my point.

When did I say 'unranked' ==> 'unaccredited'? In fact, the entire point is to have such 'proficiency tests' as 'accredited'
 
When did I say 'unranked' ==> 'unaccredited'? In fact, the entire point is to have such 'proficiency tests' as 'accredited'

Yep, meaning that anyone that can pass any (level of) test is accredited.
 
@Ikari

Yes--they will allow it for a very limited range; which actually concedes the feasibility of it. However, they will never admit this model could be expanded for the entire degree system, as it would destroy the business model immediately. Though, consider, if it is possible to 'placement test' out of Single Variable Calculus, then it is possible to design a test(s) on par with the entire Undergraduate Mathematics curriculum, which would demonstrate proficiency worthy of earning a BA/BS in the subject.

You gotta pay for the slip of paper that says you know the subject, lol.

You can certainly make tests that would represent some aggregated knowledge one should possess when graduating undergraduate university. Certainly in fields, at least mine, there are PhD prelims that one must take in order to be successfully accepted into a PhD program. Those prelims are a aggregate test of knowledge through the Master's level. If you "pass" (no one wins in the prelims, lol) then you can move on with your degree. So I don't think it's a question of "can we". Certainly you can make a barrage of a week long testing cycle to go through all the courses one should take when getting a degree. The real question is "would we?". And the answer is no, we won't. And I think there are a few reasons for that.

First, I think it is, as you stated, based somewhat on income. You pay to go to undergraduate, you spend 4-5 years and pay tuition for those years, you successfully complete your course load, and then you graduate and get your degree. There's a lot of money tied up in that.

But also, I feel that there are other things that go along with a proper University education that isn't summed up in just the accumulated knowledge of any particular subject. The education you receive is meant to be more far reaching than just the degree you earn. So for instance, I majored in Physics and Chemistry with minors in Math, Botany, and Political Science. But my education wasn't restricted to just those subjects. I took music and art, history and religion, tons of English (I actually had enough credits for an English minor, but there was no more room on the form, lol), etc. My B.S. degree doesn't just mean that I took some particular form of science, but that also I had a broad and well grounded education in other subjects as well.

For certain subjects, like science, there are labs and research to be done that cannot be accomplished with a test alone. There is a lot of learning to be done, as well as preparation for either graduate school or a career. One can know a lot of things, but implementing them is different. There are quite a few skills that are learned through the course of an undergraduate education that are not captured in tests alone.

Also, there's the personal growth one goes through during the tenure of their undergraduate stay (or, rather, should go through). This experience and growth cannot be tested for, and indeed can really only be obtained through first-hand experience. Not only is one supposed to learn their subjects and other subjects, but to grow into a well-rounded and grounded adult. There is more to university life than just the base learning of one's major classes. There's socializing and leadership roles, there is personal and emotional growth. All these are summed up in the degree you ultimately possess at the end of the process.

Now, in the modern era is that true as much? I'm not sure because undergraduate education has started to become a "standard". You "have to go" to college now. When I was in graduate school, I had to teach labs to the undergraduates and man...so many of them I didn't feel belonged there. So the commonality of it has cheapened it somewhat. And I do think that on some level it's become more of a "factory", as it were. You go in, you jump through the hoops, you get your degree and leave. People do not treat academia quite with the respect and diligence that they should. So are the things I talked about really summed up in a degree anymore? I like to think that the degree still means more than just mere tests. So in that, I do not support being able to essentially "test out" of undergraduate. The process and the diversity are still needed.

That being said, I don't think people should treat it as if "they deserve it". I think that overall, University has become far too whiny and has lost some of its meaning and some of its integrity. No one "deserves" to go to university, and if you cannot hack it, you should be thrown out. On some level, I do think that we need to restore the mean streets of academia.

So in short. Could we develop a test that could assess if one knows the cumulative knowledge of a subject matter they should learn while in university? Yes we could. Should we do so? Should we allow one to "test out" of college? No.
 
Yep, meaning that anyone that can pass any (level of) test is accredited.

@ttwtt

Yes--though differing levels of 'prestige' can be assigned to the accreditation via a system such as I previously discussed. Currently, this occurs in the University system as a degree from Harvard is 'weighted' more heavily than a degree from a state sponsored public school, for instance.
 
Proficiency Tests

Consider, if students are (essentially) mandated to take standardized tests such as the G.E.D., SAT, ACT, GRE, GRE Subject Tests, ect. ect. to demonstrate academic knowledge, skills & abilities which is claimed to be a sufficiently strong evaluation method--Why cant 'Proficiency Tests' be administered on a range of subjects that, if passed, credentials a person in that particular area analogous to taking a course, sequential group of courses, or degree (i.e. AA, BA, MA, ect.)?

Note, 'placement testing' and 'final exams' are already standard, then why not have that model expanded greatly? That is, if a person takes and passes a 'Final Exam' on a particular subject, what is the need for them to take the 4 month course? Likewise, if a person can pass a GRE Subject Test on a given subject, which is intended to demonstrate proficiency at the level of an Undergraduate degree in the area, why should that not credential them in the area? That is, why could they not bypass the need for attending College for 4 or so years and simply take the Test if & when ready in order to earn the diploma?

Because passing a test on a topic and actually knowing that topic are two VERY different things. A test is a tool that samples your knowledge on a subject, it does not guarantee proficiency. I work in a manufacturing company and as a result of my experience here, if you were to give me a test on being a rip sawyer, I could pass it with flying colors, but if I was a rip sawyer, you'd be pretty disappointed just because there are details that a test wouldn't cover that is the difference between knowing how to rip and actually being able to rip. Tests are simply tools to sample your knowledge and see if you learned what was being taught, they are not intended to judge proficiency.
 
Why so defensive?

Because you know you have a silly idea.

@Vox

You have failed to provide an argument/counter-argument. Rather, you have pontificated your view, as though it should be taken seriously; while it is trivial to produce a counter-example, as I did.

Also, the idea is already implemented on a lower-level, since it is known to work (as other members have pointed out as well). However, the University system has high incentive not to expand the model out more broadly, for (selfish) financial reasons.
 
Because passing a test on a topic and actually knowing that topic are two VERY different things. A test is a tool that samples your knowledge on a subject, it does not guarantee proficiency. I work in a manufacturing company and as a result of my experience here, if you were to give me a test on being a rip sawyer, I could pass it with flying colors, but if I was a rip sawyer, you'd be pretty disappointed just because there are details that a test wouldn't cover that is the difference between knowing how to rip and actually being able to rip. Tests are simply tools to sample your knowledge and see if you learned what was being taught, they are not intended to judge proficiency.

@Faithful servant

Your concept of 'test' seems to be far too limited; the entire University system is presents a series of tests, and then cumulative tests in order to assess proficiency or failure. However, the University system also demands a long-series of lectures, ect. leading up to those tests--which are not necessary to learn the topic, simply a guided training aide. 'Proficiency Tests' would be an alternative path for students/people who do not require the long-winded/extended training, and are ready to take the tests as they have already acquired the knowledge, skills, and abilities through independent study.
 
@Vox

You have failed to provide an argument/counter-argument. Rather, you have pontificated your view, as though it should be taken seriously; while it is trivial to produce a counter-example, as I did.

Also, the idea is already implemented on a lower-level, since it is known to work (as other members have pointed out as well). However, the University system has high incentive not to expand the model out more broadly, for (selfish) financial reasons.

Your counter-example was irrelevant and so stupid as to be unworthy of comment.

So it's obvious that you are a misunderstood genius who thinks he should rise to the top without doing the work like the rest of us.

Suck it up, buttercup. You still have to do the work.
 
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