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When should America discriminate?

TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

Bodhisattva said:
Are you French?
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No, I am an American born in the Good Ole USA.

I have lived in Europe for a donkey's age, and given what is happening stateside (socially, politically, criminally), I aint going back any time soon ...

And given that the total number of Yanks living permanently abroad is estimated at 9 million*, I'm not the only one. I think that means we deserve to elect representatives to Congress, given that around 32 states have populations less than 9 million individuals. See the list of population by state here. Count them!

But, no, we cant have that - which is tantamount to "taxation without representation!" And though the US government thinks it has the right to tax our income even though we earn a living abroad.

*See here.
 
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Lafayette said:
No, I am an American born in the Good Ole USA.

I have lived in Europe for a donkey's age, and given what is happening stateside (socially, politically, criminally), I aint going back any time soon ...
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So you are a traitor?
 
Lafayette said:
No, wrong.

They are forced to choose not to go because it is so effing-expensive - even in a state-school postsecondary school where most cost between 9 and 17K dollars a year.

Which is why - like secondary-schooling - it should be free, gratis and for nothing.

Moreover, we could reduce the monstrously high DoD-budget to pay for the cost somewhat. That expenditure is consuming more than half of the entire Discretionary Budget - and it's a huge waste. We could do more with less.

It's a boondoggle for DoD Contractors who helped finance a presidential election. Yet another reason to make it illegal!

The poor have no real way to clamber out of poverty. They are literally incarcerated into it. And people like you think "it's just a matter of will and they wanna live that way".

So, you mean that they are ignorant like animals. They are not.

But perhaps YOU ARE if you cannot see that by subventioning their Tertiary Education there just might be not only lower unemployment levels but also lower crime rates and other societal anomalies that also derive from those who are permanently-poor ...

From here: Household Poverty And Nonfatal Violent Victimization, 2008–2012, excerpt:


'Nuff said ... ?
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Actually there is a fairly simple way:
1. Finish high school
2. Don't have kids before marriage
3. Get a job

98% of people that follow those simple steps make it out of poverty. I would also add that if you can't afford children you really should consider not having more than 1. I had several coworkers complaining about how tough life is and money troubles, they didn't like it when I pointed out having 4-5 kids while making less than 75k wasn't exactly a good finicial decision.

Also, your proposal would make it even worse for middle class families. It would cause tuition costs to skyrocket for any family that wasn't getting any government handouts.
 
Lafayette said:
TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!



No, I am an American born in the Good Ole USA.

I have lived in Europe for a donkey's age, and given what is happening stateside (socially, politically, criminally), I aint going back any time soon ...

And given that the total number of Yanks living permanently abroad is estimated at 9 million*, I'm not the only one. I think that means we deserve to elect representatives to Congress, given that around 32 states have populations less than 9 million individuals. See the list of population by state here. Count them!

But, no, we cant have that - which is tantamount to "taxation without representation!" And though the US government thinks it has the right to tax our income even though we earn a living abroad.

*See here.
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You can renounce your citizenship then not have to pay those taxes.
 
Nap said:
You can renounce your citizenship then not have to pay those taxes.
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I could also pop-one in the skull, but that might please you too much ... !
 
Nap said:
98% of people that follow those simple steps make it out of poverty.
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Bollocks! Show me the study underlying the above idiocy.

Eighty-percent of those below the Poverty Threshold (PT) remain there all their lives. It all depends upon the education they obtain when they were young.

For your edification, the long-term aspect of poverty in the US:
poverty_rate_historical_0.jpg


Get no education, and you are destined for a Below-the-PT-existence in America. Why the hell cannot we, one of the richest nations on earth, educate ourselves out of poverty?

The Greatest Nation on Earth for the rich and super-rich - and the poor can go to hell* ...

*Euphemistically called "the Poverty Threshold" income level, which consists of a Total Income level below $25K annually for a family of four. (Which is, btw, an hourly wage of $12! when the Minimum Wage in the US is around 7 bucks an hour!)
 
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Lafayette said:
Had another bad night's sleep, I see.

Poor you, poor you, poor you ...
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I sleep about three hours a night on average... get lots of **** done as a result. More important though.. do you understand what a traitor is?
 
Lafayette said:
I could also pop-one in the skull, but that might please you too much ... !
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Why would you believe that it would please me for you to commit suicide? I was merely giving you a simple solution to your issues with paying US taxes while living abroad (assuming you were telling the truth about never returning)
 
Lafayette said:

Bollocks! Show me the study underlying the above idiocy.

Eighty-percent of those below the Poverty Threshold (PT) remain there all their lives. It all depends upon the education they obtain when they were young.

For your edification, the long-term aspect of poverty in the US:
poverty_rate_historical_0.jpg


Get no education, and you are destined for a Below-the-PT-existence in America. Why the hell cannot we, one of the richest nations on earth, educate ourselves out of poverty?

The Greatest Nation on Earth for the rich and super-rich - and the poor can go to hell* ...

*Euphemistically called "the Poverty Threshold" income level, which consists of a Total Income level below $25K annually for a family of four. (Which is, btw, an hourly wage of $12! when the Minimum Wage in the US is around 7 bucks an hour!)
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https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/...s-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/amp/

If we want to begin to tackle the poverty issue then we will need to address the single motherhood rate which is one of the leading predictors in drug use, poverty, crime, and many of the other ills of society.

As far as education, the teachers unions are largely the issue with making any progress.
 
jdog21 said:
You do know that everyone in america has the ability to go to college and get a degree, they just choose not to. Right? Whats stopping them..... It's not the price of tuiton because you dont have to pay out of pocket for the tuiton cause you can get school loans. So it must be something else.
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You have to pay loans back and that is Absolutly something that keeps people from going.
 
Lafayette said:

Bollocks! Show me the study underlying the above idiocy.

Eighty-percent of those below the Poverty Threshold (PT) remain there all their lives. It all depends upon the education they obtain when they were young.

For your edification, the long-term aspect of poverty in the US:
poverty_rate_historical_0.jpg


Get no education, and you are destined for a Below-the-PT-existence in America. Why the hell cannot we, one of the richest nations on earth, educate ourselves out of poverty?

The Greatest Nation on Earth for the rich and super-rich - and the poor can go to hell* ...

*Euphemistically called "the Poverty Threshold" income level, which consists of a Total Income level below $25K annually for a family of four. (Which is, btw, an hourly wage of $12! when the Minimum Wage in the US is around 7 bucks an hour!)
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Bollocks?

Mate... you are an American in France... not a Pom.
 
Nap said:
You can renounce your citizenship then not have to pay those taxes.
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That isn't required. Simply not earning income in the States means you don't have to pay taxes. The IRS still suggests filing a tax return every seven years or less in order to not get red flagged and audited.
 
Lafayette said:
Surprise question, isn't it? Some people think never.

I don't, and here is why (from the National Center for Education Statistics) - Infographic:
Percentage distribution of associate's degrees and bachelor's degrees awarded by degree-granting postsecondary institutions, by race/ethnicity and sex: Academic year 2013–14
figure-ree-1.png


It is clear (to me) from the above infographic that we should indeed discriminate FOR all those ethnicities that do not have the same postsecondary graduation rate as whites! They need help and they should get it for no cost whatsoever to them.

Not to do so IS discriminatory in that we seem to think that kids who don't get a degree don't deserve one. And yet, without a public-education option at the Tertiary Level (vocational, 2- or 4- or more years) that is free, gratis and for nothing America is effectively incarcerating people in relative poverty. And at the moment that discrimination exists at the level of the colour of one's skin as seen from the above infographic.

Nobody except the south of the US questioned who should be "free" from the very beginning of the US. After 1864 that question we thought settled. And yet, the graphic above shows how much ethnicities are not free economically to obtain a work-skills offering postsecondary education.

And, why is this a key distinction? Because, as we exit the Industrial Age we enter the Information Age where higher educational skills will be key to finding decent jobs. And yet, today, it should be obvious to all that slapping products together in a production line is now at a level where robotics applied to virtually all product-lines extant in America has shown us the way.

So, for the future of our country and its racial harmony I suggest that Tertiary Education be made free, gratis and for nothing. Why do I know that's the right thing to do? Well, because I am a Yank who lives in France and I have seen personally what free-education can do here. I spent about $1000 per school year on a post-secondary education for my children here in France, because it is subsidized by the French government.

So, now you understand where Bernie got his idea for free tertiary-education. And why Hillary so willingly accepted it into her election platform that the Federal government should subsidize all Tertiary Education for families with an income below $100K annually. (Because 54K was the median income of American families in 2017 at election time, and so a family of four with two working parents typically had below $100K as total family income.)

That is the investment our country should be making for our young. Or, we'll simply have to pay the tab for the Unemployment that will afflict more and more of our fellow citizens who did not have the means to obtain a postsecondary degree under the existing conditions.

Today, only 46.1% of all Americans have a "post-graduate degree". That is not even half the population! And so, what are the other 54% of the population to do? Well, 14% of them are living their lives below the Poverty Threshold year after year after year.

Which is shameful of a country that could well afford to educate them free, gratis and for nothing.

We need to get our priorities right ...
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Well, my first observation is that France has a 9.1% unemployment rate vs 4.1% in the US. Second is the thought that anything you make free, you make worthless. If everyone has a college degree you take away the value it has to potential employers.
 
holbritter said:
You obviously do not know that much about how it works. If you are poor, you will go to college for free. It's called Financial Aid. No money out of your pocket, they even pay for books and room and board, and you don't have to pay anything back. For the middle class, you can get education loans. You do have to pay it back though.

So your whole argument is wrong. The people you are talking about can go to college absolutely free.
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Good points. And there is no such thing as "free college" - someone is paying - those that actually pay income tax, for instance. Which mean they can't save, invest and purchase as much - things that drive the economy.
 
Lafayette said:
For your edification:
ep_chart_001.png


Meaning what? If you have one, you live better.
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Well, that's somewhat misleading - the low unemployment rate for bachelor's degrees is driven mostly by those holding "marketable" majors, e.g. science, engineering, etc. It's not just the mere holding of a degree, it's holding one employers are interested in.
 
Lafayette said:
I employ factual evidence and you resort to "not necessarily".

Moving right along ...
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You provide some interest data, granted. But your analysis of it lacks depth. Looking at the differences in unemployment and income amongst various majors is crucial to understanding the situation but you blow right by that. Nor do you consider how "free college" would flood the market and drive unemployment and income down.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That isn't required. Simply not earning income in the States means you don't have to pay taxes. The IRS still suggests filing a tax return every seven years or less in order to not get red flagged and audited.
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Oh, I had heard before that you had to still pay taxes to the US. That makes more sense.
 
Someone mentioned $1100 per year.
UCLA only cost me about 1800 a year back in the 1980's.
I think it's fairly doable to make a basic university education or a trade school education 1800 a year for people below
the 50,000 a year income level. And no, it does not have to be the tip top private universities, we can access community colleges and state universities.

It is true that not everyone CAN benefit from college but if they can't, then they can benefit from training in the trades.
If we can provide sufficient apprentice opportunities for when they graduate from the trade schools it will be a sound investment.

I think that's a fair compromise for America. Means test the applicants and test to see if they can benefit from university education, and if not, send them to the trades, and make it very affordable.

1800 to 2000 a year is doable for almost everyone, and if they are in the extreme poverty category, fix the Financial Aid as straight grants. Two grand a year is something that is affordable even if you're working part time at McDonald's.

We need to invest in this upcoming generation, because ignorance is much more expensive to the taxpayers than schooling.
 
Bullseye said:
You provide some interest data, granted. But your analysis of it lacks depth. Looking at the differences in unemployment and income amongst various majors is crucial to understanding the situation but you blow right by that. Nor do you consider how "free college" would flood the market and drive unemployment and income down.
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There is absolutely no pertinent data that you can site to underscore this remark.

You are wholly beside the point - Education gives possibilities of employment, not reduces them.
 
Bullseye said:
Well, that's somewhat misleading - the low unemployment rate for bachelor's degrees is driven mostly by those holding "marketable" majors, e.g. science, engineering, etc. It's not just the mere holding of a degree, it's holding one employers are interested in.
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Wrong again. You are making a bad habit of it.

There is no justification of the above comment. It is wholly nonsensical.

Find the data to support your allegations. There is none ...
 
Bullseye said:
And some how giving everyone free college is going to correct all those problems?
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One liners are no response whatsoever in a debate.

The fact of the matter is that education and employment (meaning earnings and unemployment) are indeed directly related to educational achievement. Especially in a country that where the GDP almost entirely Services Industries oriented.

Moving right along ...
 
Bullseye said:
Well, my first observation is that France has a 9.1% unemployment rate vs 4.1% in the US. Second is the thought that anything you make free, you make worthless. If everyone has a college degree you take away the value it has to potential employers.
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Both France and the US are coming out of Major Recessions.

Even during those recessions, degree-holders were a lesser part of the unemployed base ...
 
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