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Knowledge is Power.

Kal'Stang

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That is something that I have believed for a long time now. We see its effects every day ranging from parkour to rocket science. If you know how to do something then with a few exceptions you are going to be able to do that something. (obviously someone confined to a wheel chair will never be able to do parkour but may still understand how to do it) The problem is learning that which you wish to learn. In today's modern age you go to a trade school or university/college or even the military to learn. Pretty much any other way is looked down upon at best. And the cost for going to any of those is or can be tremendous. Thousands of dollars for trade school and even more thousands of dollars for college/universities. In the military you have the possibility of losing your life. And for all of these there is the very real fact that not everyone will be able to join. This leaves only one other way to get what is becoming a more acceptable form of education is via online classes. But again, even for those people, may need assistance to pay for the bill. And not everyone qualifies for that assistance. Which again is leaving a segment of the population in the dark.

In order to rectify this people have suggested that colleges and universities become "free". IE: Paid for by the government in essence. Which means a major rise in taxes. Which naturally a majority of people are against. The common theme being "why should I have to pay for your education?" Understandable. The costs to make colleges and universities free to attend much like K-12 would be enormous. So I fully understand why people are against a tuition free college/university.

So....is there a work around this? I think that there is. It will of course still cost money. Nothing in life is free after all. But I think perhaps this idea I had may solve the lack of knowledge that so many have. Assuming that they actually want to learn of course. You can't fix or help willful ignorance after all no matter how hard you try. But for those that WANT to learn but for some reason or other cannot get the money to do so this may be the answer.

Now I'm sure that by now you're wondering what the hell the idea I have is. So here we go....

First step is to stop subsidizing colleges and universities. And by subsidizing I mean every penny that the government spends towards these is to be stopped. No more tax money going to colleges directly or indirectly. (which includes government scholarships and student loans)

Then take that money that was going to colleges and universities and put it into a massive server farm which holds all the same textual information possible at colleges and universities and make it available on the internet. Make it a subscription fee to access it for a price of no more than $25 per month.

Now not everyone can learn simply by reading. They literally need someone to explain things to them. I'm not sure how to handle this but perhaps a combination of a couple of things? 1st: Tutors are great resources for pretty much anyone. The bad part to that is that tutors can be expensive. So how about for an extra $25-50/month (making the total $50-75/month) you can get an online tutor. Someone that you can talk to when you're having difficulties. That extra 25-50 per month spent could be used to pay those tutors. 2nd: Videos that can be watched to show how to do the something that the person is trying to learn.

So...what do you think? Due to taking the money away from the colleges and universities and using that money to pay for all of this I don't see this as needing to raise taxes in order to pay for this.
 
I don't care for it, for a few reasons.

1. We have had cheap/free college in the recent past. The problem with the expense that we have now is not a product of need, nor is it something we couldn't solve without exorbitant taxes... although I too prefer a solution that does not involve government. Just sayin'. The argument that it's a pipe dream is demonstrably false.

2. So much is lost by teaching remotely. So much. There is no true discussion. There is no hands-on work. There is no sense of involvement. And actually, this will have the worst affect on the very brightest students. Highly intelligent people like to do and talk. Having few to no accessible options outside online classes destroys the doing. Of course, it will also negatively impact any student with any disability, from blindness to dyslexia. The affect this would have on social functioning seems almost entirely negative. Another several hours a day talking to no one, which most teenagers already do far too much of?

3. This will also destroy most STEM fields, from medicine to engineering -- professions based mostly on doing. The costs for those degrees would skyrocket, and become even less accessible than they are now.

The underlying problem with the cost of education is an artificial one, and surely there is a better way to solve it than removing people from the real world even more than they already are.
 
The college experience is so much more than textbooks. It's exposure to various religions, ethnicity, backgrounds, foreigners and other 'others'. It's living without direct supervision, managing ones own schedule and budget. It's volunteering for campus charity organizations. Becoming part of a social or professional fraternity, or some other campus group. It's having discussions with professors both classroom and personal interest. Lab work. Team work including developing leadership and support skills. Presentations to groups.

I could go on for pages, but the point is you have reduced the college experience to a fraction of its value.


The common theme being "why should I have to pay for your education?" Understandable.

If they don't know the answer to that question, they need to go to college.


I believe the best plan is to phase in free college tuition slowly. Start with expanding scholarships instead of opening the floodgates with flat handouts and suffering sudden catastrophic costs. This way, more kids who try the hardest, and in that way earn it, will be the first to benefit.
 
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The college experience is so much more than textbooks. It's exposure to various religions, ethnicity, backgrounds, foreigners and other 'others'. It's living without direct supervision, managing ones own schedule and budget. It's volunteering for campus charity organizations. Becoming part of a social or professional fraternity, or some other campus group. It's having discussions with professors both classroom and personal interest. Lab work. Team work including developing leadership and support skills. Presentations to groups.

I could go on for pages, but the point is you have reduced the college experience to a fraction of its value.




If they don't know the answer to that question, they need to go to college.


I believe the best plan is to phase in free college tuition slowly. Start with expanding scholarships instead of opening the floodgates with flat handouts and suffering sudden catastrophic costs. This way, more kids who try the hardest, and in that way earn it, will be the first to benefit.

That (bolded above) should be an obvious reality - the idea of "free" college to all is never going to happen. I went to community college with help from my employer (1973 to 1975) via a tuition reimbursement benefit. I was working full-time but on the 4pm to midnight shift which allowed me to take daytime classes. The program paid 80% of tuition for a grade of A or B and 75% for a grade of C which I felt was quite fair and generous. I still had "skin in the game" since I still had to pay some tuition and all of the student and book fees but the bulk of the cost was picked up by my employer.
 
That is something that I have believed for a long time now. We see its effects every day ranging from parkour to rocket science. If you know how to do something then with a few exceptions you are going to be able to do that something. (obviously someone confined to a wheel chair will never be able to do parkour but may still understand how to do it) The problem is learning that which you wish to learn. In today's modern age you go to a trade school or university/college or even the military to learn. Pretty much any other way is looked down upon at best. And the cost for going to any of those is or can be tremendous. Thousands of dollars for trade school and even more thousands of dollars for college/universities. .

...

So...what do you think? Due to taking the money away from the colleges and universities and using that money to pay for all of this I don't see this as needing to raise taxes in order to pay for this.

What bothers me is the paradigm that the government being involved in anything other than law enforcement or defense is somehow bad. It really is a paradigm, something that the Right has told itself since Reagan was first elected, and so most Republicans and conservatives have been telling that each other all their lives...

...and it's a wrong paradigm. The proper understanding should be that government belongs where the profit motive does NOT belong. For instance, look at our public schools - the spread of public schools worldwide has enabled mankind to have the highest literacy rate in recorded history...and over all the developed world, it was paid for with taxes. And were the taxes spent dumped down a hole into oblivion? Of course not. They paid the construction workers, the maintenance workers, the teachers, the bus drivers, and so on...and all of those people spent that money where? At the local grocery stores, at local utilities, at local mercantile stores, and so on. It is for this reason that I say that except for any taxes spent outside our borders (or in our stock market), there is not a single penny of our taxpayer dollars that is truly wasted - to be sure, a LOT of our taxes could be better spent more efficiently, or for better uses...but it's not wasted - all our taxes flow right back into our economy and support local businesses. A great example is the plethora of small businesses that surround every military base.

What's more, many of the other developed nations make it MUCH easier for students to have a higher education. Look at Germany - the fourth-largest economy on the planet. For their students who do well in school, who pass the test for university, it's MUCH less expensive for those students - they don't wind up graduating with tens (or sometimes hundreds) of thousands of dollars of debt...but most of ours do. And for those who don't qualify for university (it's merit-based, remember), they can easily go to technical schools which provide them what they need to prosper in Germany's largely union-based economy. And is anyone going to say Germany's educational system is somehow subpar? I don't think so!

Government does not belong IN business...but government is essential for providing the infrastructure that allows businesses to thrive, from roads to regulatory frameworks to the judicial system...to schools and colleges (for an educated workforce is crucial for any developed nation). I strongly disagree with your idea - not because it's IMO a "private sector" idea, but because humans are social animals, and most of us learn better as part of a group striving for a particular goal of learning than sitting by ourselves looking at stuff on the internet...and I say that as one of the few who DO learn better by sitting alone looking at stuff on the internet.

Change your paradigm - government is not an evil monolith existing only to take your taxes and pour them down a bottomless pit. Government is made up 100% of people, mostly good people (conservative and liberal) who want to do the right thing. I can't think of anything Reagan did worse than to teach America to never trust the government, to always assume the government is less efficient and less trustworthy than the private sector. Again, government belongs wherever the profit motive does not belong...two of the greatest examples of which are education and access to health care. After all, healthy and educated workers are crucial to the economy of any developed nation - they are the single most important part of our national infrastructure. So do not look at the taxes spent on them as a waste - it's NOT. Instead, see the taxes spent on them as the very best investment America can make to provide our businesses with a healthy and educated workforce.
 
. Again, government belongs wherever the profit motive does not belong...two of the greatest examples of which are education and access to health care.

And, a third is the penal system. "For Profit" prisons are an abomination.
 
That is something that I have believed for a long time now. We see its effects every day ranging from parkour to rocket science. If you know how to do something then with a few exceptions you are going to be able to do that something. (obviously someone confined to a wheel chair will never be able to do parkour but may still understand how to do it) The problem is learning that which you wish to learn. In today's modern age you go to a trade school or university/college or even the military to learn. Pretty much any other way is looked down upon at best. And the cost for going to any of those is or can be tremendous. Thousands of dollars for trade school and even more thousands of dollars for college/universities. In the military you have the possibility of losing your life. And for all of these there is the very real fact that not everyone will be able to join. This leaves only one other way to get what is becoming a more acceptable form of education is via online classes. But again, even for those people, may need assistance to pay for the bill. And not everyone qualifies for that assistance. Which again is leaving a segment of the population in the dark.

In order to rectify this people have suggested that colleges and universities become "free". IE: Paid for by the government in essence. Which means a major rise in taxes. Which naturally a majority of people are against. The common theme being "why should I have to pay for your education?" Understandable. The costs to make colleges and universities free to attend much like K-12 would be enormous. So I fully understand why people are against a tuition free college/university.

So....is there a work around this? I think that there is. It will of course still cost money. Nothing in life is free after all. But I think perhaps this idea I had may solve the lack of knowledge that so many have. Assuming that they actually want to learn of course. You can't fix or help willful ignorance after all no matter how hard you try. But for those that WANT to learn but for some reason or other cannot get the money to do so this may be the answer.

Now I'm sure that by now you're wondering what the hell the idea I have is. So here we go....

First step is to stop subsidizing colleges and universities. And by subsidizing I mean every penny that the government spends towards these is to be stopped. No more tax money going to colleges directly or indirectly. (which includes government scholarships and student loans)

Then take that money that was going to colleges and universities and put it into a massive server farm which holds all the same textual information possible at colleges and universities and make it available on the internet. Make it a subscription fee to access it for a price of no more than $25 per month.

Now not everyone can learn simply by reading. They literally need someone to explain things to them. I'm not sure how to handle this but perhaps a combination of a couple of things? 1st: Tutors are great resources for pretty much anyone. The bad part to that is that tutors can be expensive. So how about for an extra $25-50/month (making the total $50-75/month) you can get an online tutor. Someone that you can talk to when you're having difficulties. That extra 25-50 per month spent could be used to pay those tutors. 2nd: Videos that can be watched to show how to do the something that the person is trying to learn.

So...what do you think? Due to taking the money away from the colleges and universities and using that money to pay for all of this I don't see this as needing to raise taxes in order to pay for this.

You do realize that MIT started putting their whole undergrad curriculum online for free in 2001 and since now there are over 200 universities that do the same
 
From what I've seen of the efforts already underway to do this sort of thing (such as with MIT), it doesn't have remotely the same effect as in-class instruction. Of course, anyone who spends much time actually learning how to educate others knows this without having to try it out...
 
You do realize that MIT started putting their whole undergrad curriculum online for free in 2001 and since now there are over 200 universities that do the same

Unfortunately, few if any of those programs have a path to a degree, or any sort of knowledge/skill verification.

I'm all for learn on your own, but there has to be some sort of proveable outcome before any employers are willing to take self educated employment candidates seriously.
 
Unfortunately, few if any of those programs have a path to a degree, or any sort of knowledge/skill verification.

I'm all for learn on your own, but there has to be some sort of proveable outcome before any employers are willing to take self educated employment candidates seriously.

That kind of disproves the OP's thread title. Certifiable proof of knowledge is power, doesnt quite have the same ring
 
Relevant knowledge is power. Irrelevant knowledge is a waste of time. But colleges require paying just as much for useless crap courses like Literature as for mathematics and physics to get an engineering degree. No certification without the junk.
 
That is something that I have believed for a long time now. We see its effects every day ranging from parkour to rocket science. If you know how to do something then with a few exceptions you are going to be able to do that something. (obviously someone confined to a wheel chair will never be able to do parkour but may still understand how to do it) The problem is learning that which you wish to learn. In today's modern age you go to a trade school or university/college or even the military to learn. Pretty much any other way is looked down upon at best. And the cost for going to any of those is or can be tremendous. Thousands of dollars for trade school and even more thousands of dollars for college/universities. In the military you have the possibility of losing your life. And for all of these there is the very real fact that not everyone will be able to join. This leaves only one other way to get what is becoming a more acceptable form of education is via online classes. But again, even for those people, may need assistance to pay for the bill. And not everyone qualifies for that assistance. Which again is leaving a segment of the population in the dark.

In order to rectify this people have suggested that colleges and universities become "free". IE: Paid for by the government in essence. Which means a major rise in taxes. Which naturally a majority of people are against. The common theme being "why should I have to pay for your education?" Understandable. The costs to make colleges and universities free to attend much like K-12 would be enormous. So I fully understand why people are against a tuition free college/university.

(Edited by me for brevity and to meet word-count limits.)

First step is to stop subsidizing colleges and universities. And by subsidizing I mean every penny that the government spends towards these is to be stopped. No more tax money going to colleges directly or indirectly. (which includes government scholarships and student loans)

Then take that money that was going to colleges and universities and put it into a massive server farm which holds all the same textual information possible at colleges and universities and make it available on the internet. Make it a subscription fee to access it for a price of no more than $25 per month.

Now not everyone can learn simply by reading. They literally need someone to explain things to them. I'm not sure how to handle this but perhaps a combination of a couple of things? 1st: Tutors are great resources for pretty much anyone. The bad part to that is that tutors can be expensive. So how about for an extra $25-50/month (making the total $50-75/month) you can get an online tutor. Someone that you can talk to when you're having difficulties. That extra 25-50 per month spent could be used to pay those tutors. 2nd: Videos that can be watched to show how to do the something that the person is trying to learn.

So...what do you think? Due to taking the money away from the colleges and universities and using that money to pay for all of this I don't see this as needing to raise taxes in order to pay for this.

Kal'Stang:

Knowledge may be power but not all power is good nor desirable in a civil society. A barrel full of gunpowder primed to be lit has potential power but no sane persons or cautious societies want charged petards lying around in their midst. Wisdom must guide those with knowledge to avoid abusing their newly acquired power and regrettably teachers and professors have a responsibility to deny certain types of education to people who demonstrate the desire or capacity to abuse that power. The role of education systems at every level is to not only deliver knowledge and skills to new generations but also to attempt to ensure that those who have recieved this knowledge and these powerful skills use them in a responsible and socially beneficial way.

The on-line education scheme which you suggest, and which already exists in part today, may be optimal for delivering knowledge to some or even many hungry minds, but the interpersonal teaching and interaction of brick-and-mortar education is better at teaching wisdom through discussion and mentorship while also unfortunately providing the necessary vetting of those who desire certain types of knowledge; thus allowing for better weeding out of those who could abuse the knowledge and skills of higher education for either their own nefarious reasons and/or for anti-social purposes. A state which opens up certain kinds of knowlege and intellectual or technical skills may find itself on the receiving end of the power of knowledge in ways it would otherwise rather avoid. Should societies hoist themselves onto their own knowledge-petards in an effort to minimise public costs and maximise the scope for the widest spectrum of education/learning?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Knowledge is Power.
Be that as it may, the current resident of the White House is a living testament to how precious little knowledge is needed to ascend to the very acme of power.
 
Be that as it may, the current resident of the White House is a living testament to how precious little knowledge is needed to ascend to the very acme of power.

Nonsense, Trump for instance figured out where the nation is when no one else could manage except for Crazy Bernie.
 
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