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Classroom disruptions

Waddy

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My oldest son is a principal at an urban inner city elementary school. One class has been "evacuated" 36 times since the beginning of school. The student causing all the trouble lives with grandma and hits, bites, curses, spits on, and generally trashes the classroom. He does this to other students and adults. He has a med script, but seldom takes it. The disruptive student has a 504 plan, has had a "Manifestation" hearing and cannot be expelled for his behavior. According to policy, adults may not physically touch students; they are trained in "blocking techniques" instead. How the day generally goes is as follows; also following the "plan".

When student shows signs of becoming disruptive, the teacher and aide will try to calm him down while keeping him in class. This usually involves 20-50 minutes of trying to work with him.

If he starts to escalate, the classroom is evacuated (students go to cafeteria) and an administrator takes over.

The administrator tries to coax the student into the "Recovery" room. This usually takes another 20-30 minutes.

Once the disruptive student is in the Recovery room the students may return to class, and clean it up I assume, since it's usually trashed. (Displays torn off walls, chairs and books thrown around, computers turned over, etc.,)

And now it gets better; if the disruptive student calms down finally in the Recovery room, after a time he must be sent back to class, since he has a right to an education.

Where the scenario might repeat itself again the same day....

The teacher in that class told my son she has fallen way behind teaching the rest of the students because of the disruptive student.

What do you do; that's legal? Keep in mind that grandma pretty much has to agree with whatever is done.

(BTW: I tried to add a poll but I wasn't fast enough to meet the 5 minute limit)
 
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Kids like that should never be in a general education classroom. It's not fair to the teacher who is trying to teach the rest of the 20, 25 or 30 students and it's definitely not fair to the other students. And, frankly, it's not fair to the kid either. He needs to be a special class with someone who knows how to work with him so that he can learn too.
 
My oldest son is a principal at an urban inner city elementary school. One class has been "evacuated" 36 times since the beginning of school. The student causing all the trouble lives with grandma and hits, bites, curses, spits on, and generally trashes the classroom. He does this to other students and adults. He has a med script, but seldom takes it. The disruptive student has a 504 plan, has had a "Manifestation" hearing and cannot be expelled for his behavior. According to policy, adults may not physically touch students; they are trained in "blocking techniques" instead. How the day generally goes is as follows; also following the "plan".

When student shows signs of becoming disruptive, the teacher and aide will try to calm him down while keeping him in class. This usually involves 20-50 minutes of trying to work with him.

If he starts to escalate, the classroom is evacuated (students go to cafeteria) and an administrator takes over.

The administrator tries to coax the student into the "Recovery" room. This usually takes another 20-30 minutes.

Once the disruptive student is in the Recovery room the students may return to class, and clean it up I assume, since it's usually trashed. (Displays torn off walls, chairs and books thrown around, computers turned over, etc.,)

And now it gets better; if the disruptive student calms down finally in the Recovery room, after a time he must be sent back to class, since he has a right to an education.

Where the scenario might repeat itself again the same day....

The teacher in that class told my son she has fallen way behind teaching the rest of the students because of the disruptive student.

What do you do; that's legal? Keep in mind that grandma pretty much has to agree with whatever is done.

(BTW: I tried to add a poll but I wasn't fast enough to meet the 5 minute limit)

That's why "what is your taser policy?" is a very important question when choosing schools
 
My oldest son is a principal at an urban inner city elementary school. One class has been "evacuated" 36 times since the beginning of school. The student causing all the trouble lives with grandma and hits, bites, curses, spits on, and generally trashes the classroom. He does this to other students and adults. He has a med script, but seldom takes it. The disruptive student has a 504 plan, has had a "Manifestation" hearing and cannot be expelled for his behavior. According to policy, adults may not physically touch students; they are trained in "blocking techniques" instead. How the day generally goes is as follows; also following the "plan".

When student shows signs of becoming disruptive, the teacher and aide will try to calm him down while keeping him in class. This usually involves 20-50 minutes of trying to work with him.

If he starts to escalate, the classroom is evacuated (students go to cafeteria) and an administrator takes over.

The administrator tries to coax the student into the "Recovery" room. This usually takes another 20-30 minutes.

Once the disruptive student is in the Recovery room the students may return to class, and clean it up I assume, since it's usually trashed. (Displays torn off walls, chairs and books thrown around, computers turned over, etc.,)

And now it gets better; if the disruptive student calms down finally in the Recovery room, after a time he must be sent back to class, since he has a right to an education.

Where the scenario might repeat itself again the same day....

The teacher in that class told my son she has fallen way behind teaching the rest of the students because of the disruptive student.

What do you do; that's legal? Keep in mind that grandma pretty much has to agree with whatever is done.

(BTW: I tried to add a poll but I wasn't fast enough to meet the 5 minute limit)

I would think that as a principal, had and the teachers would have had some training in how to best deal with his "seizures". Grandma should be more responsible with his medications as well.

It's a tough position to be in, and I agree with Josie.
 
Follow my one-step plan: Don't become a teacher.

;)
 
Kids like that should never be in a general education classroom.

Eh, no. Normally this belief is fostered from a lack of imagination and information on the part of school staff. Firstly, if the child has a 504 plan and there is a manifest determination, then that means this is as a result of a disability, which then basically puts the onus on the team to figure out next steps, because, you know...FAPE.

First, get a functional behavioral assessment from a school psychologist. They can then draft a behavior plan that could mitigate the factors that contribute to the behaviors.
Second, if a child's behavior is impacting their education (which this certainly may be), they can be considered for eligibility for special education. Eval time...and again, if/when you do said evaluation, check to see in all areas of suspected disability. Don't skimp out on the evals.

When in doubt: look to getting more information, consider additional resources and services.
 
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Very sad but I think that this child is not ready for 'mainstreaming' and needs to be in a different learning environment until he proves that he can control himself AND learn in regular classes.

This policy, while reasonable for the majority of situations, is not working, obviously, for this child or the other kids.
 
That's why "what is your taser policy?" is a very important question when choosing schools

That's not funny, mate.
 
I would think that as a principal, had and the teachers would have had some training in how to best deal with his "seizures". Grandma should be more responsible with his medications as well.

It's a tough position to be in, and I agree with Josie.

He's not having a seizure; it's strictly a behavioral problem. Apparently (my best guess) the disruptive student is bi-polar. Starts off OK, gets irritated, finally goes off. The trigger could be he wants something he can't have right that minute. Tantrum on the way!! The teachers have been trained on how to handle him, and they do their best. In this case grandma only shows up if there is a meeting in which he (her grandson) might be sent home. No way does she want him at home. She has told my son it's his problem.

Multiply this out and you have an idea what school is like for many kids. My son says there are lots of good kids in the school, but the disruptive ones get all the attention, most of the resources, and really do inhibit the teaching/learning process for everybody.

I asked my son why the good parents haven't complained. He said they probably have no real idea; it isn't like the disruptions are mentioned it in the newsletter. A handful of the parents might have some idea, but they probably have no idea how extremely disruptive those few students are.
 
He's not having a seizure; it's strictly a behavioral problem. Apparently (my best guess) the disruptive student is bi-polar.

Without a diagnosis, which I would be a bit wary of you having knowledge to begin with, this tends to be unhelpful speculation on your part.

Starts off OK, gets irritated, finally goes off. The trigger could be he wants something he can't have right that minute. Tantrum on the way!!

Well, this may be a clue to get to a solution, eh? Bring in a school psych to do a behavioral assessment.

The teachers have been trained on how to handle him, and they do their best. In this case grandma only shows up if there is a meeting in which he (her grandson) might be sent home. No way does she want him at home. She has told my son it's his problem.

Consider it from her perspective. How many phone calls might grandma get? Is she employed? Does she have a life? When is it critical for her to be at the beck-and-call of school staff? Plus, of course she doesn't want him at home. The kid has a disability, but certainly has a right to a public education like anyone else. Yes, it is your son's problem. Nearly all 50 states in the country created legislation in the early 1970s, the federal courts moved that way since 1971, Section 504 was in 1973, and PL 94-142 was in 1975. 'Tis the job!


Multiply this out and you have an idea what school is like for many kids. My son says there are lots of good kids in the school, but the disruptive ones get all the attention, most of the resources, and really do inhibit the teaching/learning process for everybody.

Don't put the dichotomy of good kids/bad kids with disabilities and behavioral issues. It neither is correct nor is of much use in constructively solving the problem at hand. Furthermore, don't do that with the parents either (like below).

I asked my son why the good parents haven't complained.

If your son wants further guidance, why not talk to his district or state special education departments? Perhaps a really good group of folks to pull in are his state's P&A office for suggestions. They may even be able to attend the meeting.
 
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Eh, no. Normally this belief is fostered from a lack of imagination and information on the part of school staff. Firstly, if the child has a 504 plan and there is a manifest determination, then that means this is as a result of a disability, which then basically puts the onus on the team to figure out next steps, because, you know...FAPE.

First, get a functional behavioral assessment from a school psychologist. They can then draft a behavior plan that could mitigate the factors that contribute to the behaviors.
Second, if a child's behavior is impacting their education (which this certainly may be), they can be considered for eligibility for special education. Eval time...and again, if/when you do said evaluation, check to see in all areas of suspected disability. Don't skimp out on the evals.

When in doubt: look to getting more information, consider additional resources and services.

Fiddytree; Normally this belief is fostered from a lack of imagination and information on the part of school staff.

I call bullshyt. It's a tired old story trying to blame it on the teachers. They are a good group. Several years ago his current teacher was picked teacher of the month in the district. They have done all the evals, plans, etc,. The "plan" takes a lot of TIME, which should be being spent teaching the other students.

The point of this entire thread is how much TIME should a teacher and the class be expected to lose due to the behaviors of a few? At what point is all this effort and TIME being afforded ONE student a detriment to the learning of the many good students?
 
I call bullshyt.

You did just create a thread asking for advice, did you not? Much of this is what I do for a living, guy. Now, are you going to be whiny, or are you going to be serious?

It's a tired old story trying to blame it on the teachers. They are a good group.

Well, look at it this way. The 504 team and an IEP team are stacked with people with their own individual agendas, none of which are necessarily innocent or guilty. However, that leaves no one sacrosanct. However, your son is perhaps merely exasperated and genuinely interested in finding a solution. Maybe he's misguided here or there, but would be able to learn and gladly receive the help of others in his state.

Several years ago his current teacher was picked teacher of the month in the district. They have done all the evals, plans, etc,. The "plan" takes a lot of TIME, which should be being spent teaching the other students.

It does not seem like they have done all of the plans yet. And again, the entire point of this is to keep searching. It doesn't stop. Whether or not a teacher is picked up as the teacher of the month is irrelevant to what may be required for a student. The plan does take time, but that's what they are expected to do and what the student and their family has the legal right to receive.

The point of this entire thread is how much TIME should a teacher and the class be expected to lose due to the behaviors of a few? At what point is all this effort and TIME being afforded ONE student a detriment to the learning of the many good students?

Again, I thought the point of the thread was getting advice. However, if you must know, there's a lovely book that can sort a lot of that out. https://www.amazon.com/Law-Special-Education-3rd/dp/0131376098

Now, if you want to spend your time bitching about kids with disabilities getting an education, I may entertain you for a while.
 
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He needs additional evaluation and then should be sent to special ed. if necessary.

I'm sort of middle ground on this... do everything you can to accommodate a child with a disability but if that fails then you need to also consider the right of the other children to get an education. If he isn't high functioning in a standard classroom then it doesn't mean he loses his opportunity to be there, it means he may need a different format.

Does this teacher have special ed. aids with him? Or even teacher's assistants? Doesn't sound like it.

To me, this reads like a typical case of an under resourced public school that isn't doing adequate monitoring and evaluating. Someone has dropped the ball, maybe not the teacher in question but somebody.

The grandma also needs to keep him on his meds if they're helping.
 
My oldest son is a principal at an urban inner city elementary school. One class has been "evacuated" 36 times since the beginning of school. The student causing all the trouble lives with grandma and hits, bites, curses, spits on, and generally trashes the classroom. He does this to other students and adults. He has a med script, but seldom takes it. The disruptive student has a 504 plan, has had a "Manifestation" hearing and cannot be expelled for his behavior. According to policy, adults may not physically touch students; they are trained in "blocking techniques" instead. How the day generally goes is as follows; also following the "plan".

When student shows signs of becoming disruptive, the teacher and aide will try to calm him down while keeping him in class. This usually involves 20-50 minutes of trying to work with him.

If he starts to escalate, the classroom is evacuated (students go to cafeteria) and an administrator takes over.

The administrator tries to coax the student into the "Recovery" room. This usually takes another 20-30 minutes.

Once the disruptive student is in the Recovery room the students may return to class, and clean it up I assume, since it's usually trashed. (Displays torn off walls, chairs and books thrown around, computers turned over, etc.,)

And now it gets better; if the disruptive student calms down finally in the Recovery room, after a time he must be sent back to class, since he has a right to an education.

Where the scenario might repeat itself again the same day....

The teacher in that class told my son she has fallen way behind teaching the rest of the students because of the disruptive student.

What do you do; that's legal? Keep in mind that grandma pretty much has to agree with whatever is done.

(BTW: I tried to add a poll but I wasn't fast enough to meet the 5 minute limit)



IMHO, find work elsewhere. Perhaps a private school that doesn't tolerate that crap.

You can't fix that situation under that rule-set. Gotta love bureaucracy, huh.
 
Eh, no. Normally this belief is fostered from a lack of imagination and information on the part of school staff. Firstly, if the child has a 504 plan and there is a manifest determination, then that means this is as a result of a disability, which then basically puts the onus on the team to figure out next steps, because, you know...FAPE.

First, get a functional behavioral assessment from a school psychologist. They can then draft a behavior plan that could mitigate the factors that contribute to the behaviors.
Second, if a child's behavior is impacting their education (which this certainly may be), they can be considered for eligibility for special education. Eval time...and again, if/when you do said evaluation, check to see in all areas of suspected disability. Don't skimp out on the evals.

When in doubt: look to getting more information, consider additional resources and services.

^^ Well said.

Sounds to me like the child has some pretty serious problems that could possibly stem from mental health issues. Parents or guardians are usually very much involved in every aspect a 504 student has. Set up a meeting with the Grandmother and the student's team, and talk about options. Personally, if it were me, I'd get evaluations, and go from there. If the Grandmother is on board, which it seems that she will be, that's the way to go. While I hate medicating kids as a first step with behavioral problems, this would be an instance where a mild medication might help to calm him down.
 
^^ Well said.

Sounds to me like the child has some pretty serious problems that could possibly stem from mental health issues. Parents or guardians are usually very much involved in every aspect a 504 student has. Set up a meeting with the Grandmother and the student's team, and talk about options. Personally, if it were me, I'd get evaluations, and go from there. If the Grandmother is on board, which it seems that she will be, that's the way to go. While I hate medicating kids as a first step with behavioral problems, this would be an instance where a mild medication might help to calm him down.

Medication is also very much a trial and error thing, and can often deal with a lot of comings and goings of meds in order to properly transition them to another medication. Some times, rarely, you will find that entire schools of medications do not work on a child...or cause an adverse effect on them. Can be very touchy stuff. Plus, yeah, medication and children (perhaps especially for those with behavioral health needs) are tough to get an expected routine on. Kids can refuse to take meds. That being said, there are still obligations on the part of the school and the child's right to an appropriate education is not nullified as a result.
 
He's not having a seizure; it's strictly a behavioral problem. Apparently (my best guess) the disruptive student is bi-polar. Starts off OK, gets irritated, finally goes off. The trigger could be he wants something he can't have right that minute. Tantrum on the way!! The teachers have been trained on how to handle him, and they do their best. In this case grandma only shows up if there is a meeting in which he (her grandson) might be sent home. No way does she want him at home. She has told my son it's his problem.

Bipolarism is easily treated with medication, if that's what his diagnosis is. That being said, the meds have to be taken religiously. If Gramma doesn't want him home, then Gramma is responsible for making sure that he takes his meds every day. Bipolar disorder is generally a lifetime illness, so he needs to learn how to handle his meds now.

Multiply this out and you have an idea what school is like for many kids. My son says there are lots of good kids in the school, but the disruptive ones get all the attention, most of the resources, and really do inhibit the teaching/learning process for everybody.

Don't mean to sound rude, but it's this way in lots of schools. The bad kids get more attention than the good ones. Maybe the bad ones are not getting enough attention at home, and you know as well as I do, that even bad attention is still attention.

I asked my son why the good parents haven't complained. He said they probably have no real idea; it isn't like the disruptions are mentioned it in the newsletter. A handful of the parents might have some idea, but they probably have no idea how extremely disruptive those few students are.

Not much the parents will be able to do. As you mentioned in the OP, the child has a right to an education. The school, the student's team and the Grandmother have to get together and work this out. He can be saved, I'm sure. The team just needs to know where to squat and lean with him, and that can't happen until they find out what's wrong with him.
 
Medication is also very much a trial and error thing, and can often deal with a lot of comings and goings of meds in order to properly transition them to another medication. Some times, rarely, you will find that entire schools of medications do not work on a child...or cause an adverse effect on them. Can be very touchy stuff. Plus, yeah, medication and children (perhaps especially for those with behavioral health needs) are tough to get an expected routine on. Kids can refuse to take meds. That being said, there are still obligations on the part of the school and the child's right to an appropriate education is not nullified as a result.

Oh, no. I agree 100%. Don't toss the child out just because he is a behavioral problem, and honestly, "time" has nothing to do with it. This kid needs help, and often, school staff are invaluable in situations like these. They have the background to handle it, and are knowledgeable about which people in the community specialize in this area. They might be able to refer the family to a child psychologist who can get to the root of what's going on with him.

As far as medications, you are preaching to the choir. I am that 1% that will have adverse side effects with medication, so I know all about trial and error with meds. Same with my children. They inherited that from me. My daughter was a 504 student as a result of severe ADHD and depression. We had to try several different meds with her, and different dosages, before we found one that worked for her. Some didn't work at all, some worked too well (zombie on the sofa), etc. Once we found the right medication and the right dosage, it helped her out immensely, and she was able to finish school with no further problems.
 
Don't you just long for the good ol' days, when a wooden ruler to the back of the head solved everything?
 
Oh, no. I agree 100%. Don't toss the child out just because he is a behavioral problem, and honestly, "time" has nothing to do with it. This kid needs help, and often, school staff are invaluable in situations like these. They have the background to handle it, and are knowledgeable about which people in the community specialize in this area. They might be able to refer the family to a child psychologist who can get to the root of what's going on with him.

As far as medications, you are preaching to the choir. I am that 1% that will have adverse side effects with medication, so I know all about trial and error with meds. Same with my children. They inherited that from me. My daughter was a 504 student as a result of severe ADHD and depression. We had to try several different meds with her, and different dosages, before we found one that worked for her. Some didn't work at all, some worked too well (zombie on the sofa), etc. Once we found the right medication and the right dosage, it helped her out immensely, and she was able to finish school with no further problems.

Tonality-wise, I was trying to piggy back off of your comments rather than critique. I was not clear in doing so. My apologies.
 
Tonality-wise, I was trying to piggy back off of your comments rather than critique. I was not clear in doing so. My apologies.

Same with me, and your comments. Seems we are looking at it about the same way.
 
Fiddytree; It does not seem like they have done all of the plans yet. And again, the entire point of this is to keep searching.

I agree with all of you; with enough time and effort he can be saved. But "keep searching" takes even more time and effort. I just don't think disruptive kids belong in the regular classroom UNTIL they regain a semblance of normality. It isn't fair to the students who want to get an education to have to put up with constant disruptions.

Maybe some further clarification is necessary. My son was an assistant high school principal in a wealthy suburban district for five years. There he was able to spend most of his time improving curriculum and instruction. He regularly observed every class, so he knew the strengths of every teacher. He could then guide new teachers to an effective mentor already in the building. He could attend team meetings and devote time to improving instruction, innovative programs, new technology and improving test scores. Teachers used their time for instruction, and even posted all their assignments online. He had a few 504's to deal with, and a very few discipline problems, but not an inordinate amount. As a group, the students excelled.

He took this new job two years ago, being a principal at an inner city elementary school, largely because it was a huge pay raise. He is assigned a budget every year; he has a lot of flexibility how to spend it. Staff and parents were interested in hiring a full time campus police officer; the district said go ahead, but you will lose one teaching position. Or cut somewhere else to find the officer's salary. So, say, instead of four fourth grade teachers, you would have three. Instead of 30 students per class, you would have 40, or some combination of full time/part time teachers. Want a full time school psychologist, find a way in the budget.

But even with this, nothing makes up for the TIME element. He has little time to work with teachers on curriculum and instruction. He gives the team leaders as much authority as he can, but it's not the same as if he had the time to be properly involved. His counselor is similarly stressed. Instead of doing mostly counseling, she has responsibility for local, state and national testing; takes care of the materials and record keeping. She does lots of record keeping.

So, yes, this is an under-resourced public school. All school districts are not alike. Yet all districts receive essentially the same money per student. For his former district, their funding was more than adequate. His current district, receiving the same dollar per student, with so many "special needs" is woefully under-funded.

BTW; just a side note. My son said that the biggest problem he had back in the wealthy district, was something called "helicopter" parents. He said his new district is just the opposite; invisible parents.
 
I agree with all of you; with enough time and effort he can be saved. But "keep searching" takes even more time and effort. I just don't think disruptive kids belong in the regular classroom UNTIL they regain a semblance of normality. It isn't fair to the students who want to get an education to have to put up with constant disruptions.

Maybe some further clarification is necessary. My son was an assistant high school principal in a wealthy suburban district for five years. There he was able to spend most of his time improving curriculum and instruction. He regularly observed every class, so he knew the strengths of every teacher. He could then guide new teachers to an effective mentor already in the building. He could attend team meetings and devote time to improving instruction, innovative programs, new technology and improving test scores. Teachers used their time for instruction, and even posted all their assignments online. He had a few 504's to deal with, and a very few discipline problems, but not an inordinate amount. As a group, the students excelled.

He took this new job two years ago, being a principal at an inner city elementary school, largely because it was a huge pay raise. He is assigned a budget every year; he has a lot of flexibility how to spend it. Staff and parents were interested in hiring a full time campus police officer; the district said go ahead, but you will lose one teaching position. Or cut somewhere else to find the officer's salary. So, say, instead of four fourth grade teachers, you would have three. Instead of 30 students per class, you would have 40, or some combination of full time/part time teachers. Want a full time school psychologist, find a way in the budget.

But even with this, nothing makes up for the TIME element. He has little time to work with teachers on curriculum and instruction. He gives the team leaders as much authority as he can, but it's not the same as if he had the time to be properly involved. His counselor is similarly stressed. Instead of doing mostly counseling, she has responsibility for local, state and national testing; takes care of the materials and record keeping. She does lots of record keeping.

So, yes, this is an under-resourced public school. All school districts are not alike. Yet all districts receive essentially the same money per student. For his former district, their funding was more than adequate. His current district, receiving the same dollar per student, with so many "special needs" is woefully under-funded.

BTW; just a side note. My son said that the biggest problem he had back in the wealthy district, was something called "helicopter" parents. He said his new district is just the opposite; invisible parents.

And you wonder why some of the students have behavioral problems?

If your son is this miserable, tell him to go back to teaching the blue bloods. Sometimes there's a reason you make more money - because the work is harder and you have to put more into it.
 
And you wonder why some of the students have behavioral problems?

If your son is this miserable, tell him to go back to teaching the blue bloods. Sometimes there's a reason you make more money - because the work is harder and you have to put more into it.

He's not miserable, he's frustrated; there is a difference. IMO, the work isn't just harder, it's impossible. I too, have advised him to find new job in a better district. Life is too short.
 
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