• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Classroom disruptions

Do you ever run into situations though where nothing can be done to accommodate a kid in a classroom. For example, anti-social personality disorder sets in at an early age (usually by age 5), and there is nothing you can really do to treat it.
Sometimes, yes. However, most of the time we are sent in to tell schools Hey you haven't gone through the proper process.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
The teacher, principal and superintendent are not outsiders.
They have to work within the confines of the team process to satisfy due process.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
They have to work within the confines of the team process to satisfy due process.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

And they did, first was an in-class eval whch proved that further support was needed. Next he received a 1 on 1 in class which proved unsuccessful, the he was moved out.
 
They have to work within the confines of the team process to satisfy due process.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

Ah yes 'due process'! How the bureaucratic mind loves pompous verbiage! I weep for the poor teachers. Have you ever been one Fiddytree? Or is your expertise limited to making grandiose pronouncements from a safe space behind a desk?
 
Then let me clarify: your view of how to treat children is barbaric.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

Well I'm sure you wouldn't mind get crippled in the name of tolerance but there isn't a lot of options teachers have protect themselves and the school's refuse to protect them. You're view that teachers should be allowed to be physically mauled is barbaric and you really need some self-reflection
 
Ah yes 'due process'! How the bureaucratic mind loves pompous verbiage! I weep for the poor teachers. Have you ever been one Fiddytree? Or is your expertise limited to making grandiose pronouncements from a safe space behind a desk?

I have been, and accept your weeps. But a bureaucracy is a given. It cannot be avoided.
I've read this thread, and Fiddytree sounds like he know what he's talking about, individual sentences notwithstanding.
He's been explaining how the bureaucracy does work. I think that is most helpful in this case.
 
And they did, first was an in-class eval whch proved that further support was needed. Next he received a 1 on 1 in class which proved unsuccessful, the he was moved out.
Uh huh, but the thing is, you cannot involve other parents in an issue that is only legally in the purview of the school, the state, the federal government, and the indovidual family.

This isn't a pitchforks after Frankenstein moment.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
Well I'm sure you wouldn't mind get crippled in the name of tolerance but there isn't a lot of options teachers have protect themselves and the school's refuse to protect them. You're view that teachers should be allowed to be physically mauled is barbaric and you really need some self-reflection

Fortunately for everyone else, your opinion doesn't matter in the least.

There are mechanisms that allow teachers to be safe, for the students to be safe, and the individual student in question to be safe.

What it requires, however, is training and finances. Both of which can be had if the players involved try hard enough. Civil rights violations don't need to occur, and if they do, well, enjoy going to court and losing.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
Ah yes 'due process'! How the bureaucratic mind loves pompous verbiage! I weep for the poor teachers. Have you ever been one Fiddytree? Or is your expertise limited to making grandiose pronouncements from a safe space behind a desk?

I have had to call upon due process, other family members have had to call upon due process, my family friends have had to call upon due process, and the people we serve often have to themselves assert due process.

Yes, I have been. Have you?

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
I have been, and accept your weeps. But a bureaucracy is a given. It cannot be avoided.
I've read this thread, and Fiddytree sounds like he know what he's talking about, individual sentences notwithstanding.
He's been explaining how the bureaucracy does work. I think that is most helpful in this case.
I don't accept the weeps. I really don't. I've been on the receiving end of rights violations as a sped student, grew up in the system, and then moved on to teaching, and then to systems advocacy and research on special education.

Teachers are expected to (or at least have the public pretences) continually train, continually learn, and continually improve their craft. They also have legal responsibilities to perform.

To address an earlier post, whether or not the teacher has the training is not the fault of the student and the parent. That is a problem for the administration and the teacher to sort out. That's the legal responsibility they have. We can certainly advocate that teachers actually receive what they ought to have, but that in turn necessitates that administration, teacher union reps, or even school admin reps don't do what they usually do to quash those tools getting into the hands of teachers.

However, I am totally in favor of and am trying to improve teacher prep programs to actually give teachers some prep for being in the presence of students with disabilities, provide more meaningful training, overturning administrative decisions which hamper teachers abilities to actually adequately serve the students they are struggling with, promote learning structures that actually address this population, provide a more substantive federal law toward behavioral issues, and improve the structure of the team process.

But I don't weep for the teachers of America.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
I don't accept the weeps. I really don't. I've been on the receiving end of rights violations as a sped student, grew up in the system, and then moved on to teaching, and then to systems advocacy and research on special education.

Teachers are expected to (or at least have the public pretences) continually train, continually learn, and continually improve their craft. They also have legal responsibilities to perform.

However, I am totally in favor of and am trying to improve teacher prep programs to actually give teachers some prep for being in the presence of students with disabilities, provide more meaningful training, overturning administrative decisions which hamper teachers abilities to actually adequately serve the students they are struggling with, promote learning structures that actually address this population, provide a more substantive federal law toward behavioral issues, and improve the structure of the team process.

But I don't weep for the teachers of America.
...

Good points. I failed to meet expectations, that's for sure.
 
Uh huh, but the thing is, you cannot involve other parents in an issue that is only legally in the purview of the school, the state, the federal government, and the indovidual family.

This isn't a pitchforks after Frankenstein moment.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

Our concerns definitely got the ball rolling. we were never involved in the process, but immediately after our meet with the superintendent steps were taken to evaluate in a mainstream classroom was the place for him. Obviously it wasn't as he's now in 4th grade and still in the emotional classroom. Don't kid yourself, not all public schools run by the book. In wealthier school districts parents have A LOT of influence.
 
Our concerns definitely got the ball rolling. we were never involved in the process, but immediately after our meet with the superintendent steps were taken to evaluate in a mainstream classroom was the place for him. Obviously it wasn't as he's now in 4th grade and still in the emotional classroom. Don't kid yourself, not all public schools run by the book. In wealthier school districts parents have A LOT of influence.
Yeah, I'm saying that it's not in good legal standing. Bad advice.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, I'm saying that it's not in good legal standing. Bad advice.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

Agreed, but it happens more than one would think. Our school district is very wealthy, lots of parents that are influential in the community. We have a school breakfast and lunch problem but not a single family qualifies. The other challenge a lot of the public schools here face is that we have a ton of private schools with families that have the means to pay. So public school are constantly fighting to keep students.
 
Agreed, but it happens more than one would think. Our school district is very wealthy, lots of parents that are influential in the community. We have a school breakfast and lunch problem but not a single family qualifies. The other challenge a lot of the public schools here face is that we have a ton of private schools with families that have the means to pay. So public school are constantly fighting to keep students.

Now, when I say bad legal advice, I am also saying it’s also wrong-headed and the people advocating for it ought to be ashamed of themselves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Now, when I say bad legal advice, I am also saying it’s also wrong-headed and the people advocating for it ought to be ashamed of themselves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Considering the child is still in emotional support 5 years later, I'm confident that it was in his best interest. His parents who are lovely people agreed right away and are thankful for the extra support. Sometimes parents aren't aware of the support that is available to them through the public school system. The school doesn't always make it a priority to make it available.
 
Common sense isn't all that common, virtuous, or correct.

Now, considering the staff likely have not done an FBA to determine why the student behaves this way, nor have likely created a plan to address it, or necessarily sought to determine if the student is qualified for special education, they would have little reason to conclude that the student must be removed from the general classroom in favor of a more restrictive setting as their standard placement.

The school has a three pronged test to prove they have done their due diligence in this matter. If they can't pass the test in the court of law, then, no, they haven't justified their conclusion.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

There's a HUGE reason to remove the child from the classroom and it's glaringly obvious. Whatever interventions were discussed in team meetings obviously aren't working. This classroom isn't a fun, peaceful environment where all students can learn. It's an environment full of anxiety, tension and even fear. Some kids get enough of that crap at home and should be able to have school as an escape from the dysfunction and sometimes horrors of their homes. The classroom should be a happy place - not a place they dread or are afraid of coming to.

In my eyes, the child should be removed from general education classroom into a one-on-one classroom until the team determines why he's behaving like this and what can be done. Then (if the team believes it's best), they gradually introduce him back into the general education classroom with a massive amount of support from SPED and administrators for the protection of the child, his peers and his teacher. There is no reason on God's green earth why the teacher or the other children in the class should have to go to school/work and be frightened.
 
There's a HUGE reason to remove the child from the classroom and it's glaringly obvious. Whatever interventions were discussed in team meetings obviously aren't working. This classroom isn't a fun, peaceful environment where all students can learn. It's an environment full of anxiety, tension and even fear. Some kids get enough of that crap at home and should be able to have school as an escape from the dysfunction and sometimes horrors of their homes. The classroom should be a happy place - not a place they dread or are afraid of coming to.

In my eyes, the child should be removed from general education classroom into a one-on-one classroom until the team determines why he's behaving like this and what can be done. Then (if the team believes it's best), they gradually introduce him back into the general education classroom with a massive amount of support from SPED and administrators for the protection of the child, his peers and his teacher. There is no reason on God's green earth why the teacher or the other children in the class should have to go to school/work and be frightened.
Except it's not glaringly obvious since they haven't done all of their homework to come to such a conclusion. They haven't done an FBA, a behavior plan, or resolved to consider the student eligible for special education services....all of which can be done (and in the last instance, has to be done before) deciding and *proving* that the general education classroom isn't the LRE.

You have to establish fully that the general education classroom is not the LRE. Until you have done that, it's not glaringly obvious and nobody's personal opinion to the contrary matters.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 
My oldest son is a principal at an urban inner city elementary school. One class has been "evacuated" 36 times since the beginning of school. The student causing all the trouble lives with grandma and hits, bites, curses, spits on, and generally trashes the classroom. He does this to other students and adults. He has a med script, but seldom takes it. The disruptive student has a 504 plan, has had a "Manifestation" hearing and cannot be expelled for his behavior. According to policy, adults may not physically touch students; they are trained in "blocking techniques" instead. How the day generally goes is as follows; also following the "plan".

When student shows signs of becoming disruptive, the teacher and aide will try to calm him down while keeping him in class. This usually involves 20-50 minutes of trying to work with him.

If he starts to escalate, the classroom is evacuated (students go to cafeteria) and an administrator takes over.

The administrator tries to coax the student into the "Recovery" room. This usually takes another 20-30 minutes.

Once the disruptive student is in the Recovery room the students may return to class, and clean it up I assume, since it's usually trashed. (Displays torn off walls, chairs and books thrown around, computers turned over, etc.,)

And now it gets better; if the disruptive student calms down finally in the Recovery room, after a time he must be sent back to class, since he has a right to an education.

Where the scenario might repeat itself again the same day....

The teacher in that class told my son she has fallen way behind teaching the rest of the students because of the disruptive student.

What do you do; that's legal? Keep in mind that grandma pretty much has to agree with whatever is done.

(BTW: I tried to add a poll but I wasn't fast enough to meet the 5 minute limit)


Its a shame they don't have special class rooms for problem students so that those students are not slowing down the progression of other students. They can have something like a special education class for students with emotional and mental problems and they can have adults who can physically restrain these students if they are running amok. And a learning disability class for students who are not as smart as the other kids their age. Yes I am being sarcastic. I know these classes exist.
 
Agreed. Although I wouldn't use the word "nightmare". He's a child who needs extensive help -- and he's not going to get it when he's one out of 24 or 29.

I wouldn't use that term outside the staffroom... but nightmare non the less.

Parents that insist on mainstream almost always adversely affect an entire class AND their own child due to nothing but their own selfish non.acceptance.
 
You will have read that the school staff is expressly forbidden to touch a pupil, so just how can the 'problem student' be removed from the class?

It is worse here. We had two girls punching each other. One was clearly winning and the losing one was mostly covering up trying to get away... A female teacher tried separating them and got in a headlock from the aggressive girl. A male teacher tried separating them by getting between them and the girl kicked him in the balls. Absolutely true. The girl's mom is also on our school board. Mom found out and called the police on the male teacher. He was not charged after a week long investigation but not only are we not allowed to touch students we are not allowed to break up a fight to protect someone getting beaten up.
 
Back
Top Bottom