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Tertiary Education - IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY

Nonsense.

It broadens one's horiizons and teaches one "how to think". That is the tools necessary and the thoughts that preceded - they all help one to understand a complex world that is evolving around us.

That is necessary towards finding our way in that complexity.



Personal judgement and of no relevance whatsoever.

You have not understood that education is NOT just about the "job market", but also (and more importantly) it formulates our personality and outlook on life. Both of which are far more important than just remuneration.

Formulating personalities and outlooks alone won't buy them many hamburgers. It is up to the actual production generated by the individual. Not many people have the time to sit around in La La land like yourself concocting these euphoric social scenarios. You want to go to college......fine! Pick a major that is actually worth something.

Radford University worked out very well for my daughter.
 
Largely true. However if you look at many job openings, you have to have a degree just to be considered. Times have changed.

IMHO, that has more to do with the falling value of a HS diploma than the added value of a college degree.
 
It's a growing experience in an erudite and diverse environment.
False...
Debate: Do Liberals Stifle Intellectual Diversity On The College Campus? : NPR

It teaches life skills such as critical thinking and source verification (things horribly lacking here at this forum).
False...
Can You Tell Fake News From Real? Study Finds Students Have 'Dismaying' Inability : The Two-Way : NPR

A vast portion of the hate and ignorace at this website could be eliminated by a more educated population.
False...

Tom Brokaw Slams Rioting Liberals at Berkeley as ?Outrageous,? Anti-Free Speech

If you want to train your child to be a hate filled fascist who can't separate real news from fake news, then you send them to a place like Berkeley.
 
Yes, it does. Trade schools are not intellectual environments.



You didn't go to college did you? Stop with the ignorant self-serving narratives.



It helps. Sorry you don't want to hear that. It's not a slight against you personally.

Is that (first bolded above) observation supported by anything other than snobbery indicated by the next bolded above?

Few seem to care how intellectual those are that do construction or maintenance work and I have yet to be asked for any degree or certification attesting to my skill or the quality of my work. I rely on satisfied customers and their word of mouth for staying in business (self employed handyman) not hanging some certificate on the wall and using that to justify charging a higher hourly rate.

You may see doing my job(s) as being beneath your intellectual standards but some very well educated folks find my work to be quite good. I rely on doing quality work in many trades to satisfy repeat customers and to get their referrals to earn a living rather than the "value" of a certificate filled resume.
 
From PRI (here):

How many much needed schools can we build for that money? How many post-secondary degrees could be offered our kids?

I'll try to answer that second question: The NCER (National Center for Education Statistics) says that the average Total Cost of a Tertiary Degree at a public institution of higher learning is about $16,188 - and my simple calculator says that $4B amounts to about 62,500 degrees (more-or-less four years of schooling).


The NCER also tells us that only 45% of all high-schoolers will ever attain a post-secondary degree (that is, vocational or two-year or four-year or beyond).

The OECD tells us that, already, only 40% of Americans have a post-secondary degree level. See that fact here: Population with tertiary education

It is necessary, in this new Information Age of ours, to obtain a tertiary-level degree to find/keep a good-job at a decent pay-scale ... ?

And how many "much needed schools" could be built with the billions wasted on failed "alternative energy" companies? See how that works? ;)
 
Is that (first bolded above) observation supported by anything other than snobbery indicated by the next bolded above?

People who didn't go to college waxing on the anti-intellectual college is no big deal narrative look ridiculous. If someone is gonna blabber on about how worthless an academic education is, at least have one.

Is that snobbery or is that just smart. Do you often listen to those that have no clue what they're talking about? Excuse me if I dismiss an opinion based on blogs and self serving cherry picked and misinterpreted stats.

Which reminds me, yes it's self serving. That's obvious.
 
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1) why the bold print, Frenchy?

2) You are a professor (supposedly). You are STAGGERINGLY biased on this subject.

3) I went to university long ago and even then it cost $14K (which today is $31,000 per annum). I don't know where you are getting your numbers from but going to a decent school costs a HELL of a lot more than $16 grand a year.

'In HSBC’s 2016 report, The Value of Education: Foundations for the future, the US emerged as the top choice for parents considering university abroad for their child – but also the most expensive, with the average annual cost of tuition fees to study in the US estimated at $33,215.'

https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/student-finance/how-much-does-it-cost-study-us

4) Going to university was a COMPLETE waste of time. I learned NOTHING (scholastically) that I did not learn on the street.

Unless you KNOW what you want to be AND you NEED a degree to do it - you should NEVER go to university. Especially if it is to 'find yourself' (unless someone else is paying for it). You will learn FAR more by living on your own and starting a small business - ANY business with money you can afford to lose. Or just travel. Or have fun. Just live.
But spending massive amounts of dough to 'find yourself' is silly (again, unless it is free).
And forget the nonsense about having a degree makes you a lot more money. Unless it is in the field you are applying for - it usually makes NO DIFFERENCE at all.
The guy hiring you for shipping supervisor is not going to care that you have a degree in journalism.

University education is INCREDIBLY overrated.

University education is incredibly under-rated. The biggest regret in my life is not getting a degree in something, and the second is not convincing my son to get one. I told him that between any scholarships he could scrounge up, and student loans and help from me, he could spend four years studying French Medieval Literature, Baroque Music Theory, anything, just get a degree.
Education isn't job training, and Philistinism isn't pragmatism.
 
People who didn't go to college waxing on the anti-intellectual college is no big deal narrative look ridiculous. If someone is gonna blabber on about how worthless an academic education is, at least have one.

Is that snobbery or is that just smart. Do you often listen to those that have no clue what they're talking about? Excuse me if I dismiss an opinion based on blogs and self serving cherry picked and misinterpreted stats.

Which reminds me, yes it's self serving. That's obvious.

Wow...the condescension and ignorance just keep on rolling.

So...according to you, one must have first hand experience about something to be able to 'have a clue' what they are talking about?

Fine.

Have you ever been raped? Have you ever given birth? Have you ever had an abortion? Have you ever been robbed? Have you ever been a politician? Have you ever been in the military? Have you ever been to outer space? Have you ever been in a gun battle? Have you ever murdered anyone? Have you ever been a cop? Have you ever been a firefighter? Have you ever ran a country? Have you ever worked at the Federal Reserve? Have you ever been a woman? Have you ever been a senior? Have you ever been blind? Have you ever been a drug addict? Have you ever been deaf? Have you ever been assaulted? Have you ever been in a car/motorcycle race? Have you ever been in a professional sports league? Have you ever been a journalist?

So...for every one of these things you have never had 'first hand experience' with - than I assume you will NEVER give an opinion about them again since you would not 'have a clue' about them?

I mean, if you are going to 'blabber on' about something, you should at least have first hand experience about it...right?
 
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How many college grads on here had certifications or licenses for....
So basically, the Navy provided you with the equivalent of a tertiary education.

That's great, but there are also a lot of people who serve who don't wind up with those kinds of job skills; or whose military service resulted in physical, medical and other challenges (e.g. PTSD).


A 10th grade education didn't hold me back, so don't tell me that a standard college experience is necessary to get ahead. It is about personal drive and the goals that you set.
Sorry, but that's basically nonsense.

Your experience is merely an anecdote, and is rife with problems. Your own experience obviously doesn't include the dozens of people who had drive and ambition and aptitude, but got some bad breaks, or wanted jobs that required higher education. Equally important is that we have no way to re-run your life as though you had gone to college, instead of opting for military service. It's entirely plausible that you could have earned much higher wages throughout your entire lifetime in that scenario. We don't know; we can't know.

What we do know is that in the aggregate, people who only have a high school degree or less have much worse lifetime outcomes than those with more education. They are more likely to be unemployed; their average earnings are significantly lower. They did far worse in the wake of the financial crisis than those with a bachelor's degree. We also know that job opportunities for that cohort are increasingly put under pressure.

We can also look at income inequality statistics. If we lived in a truly meritocratic world, each person born into each quintile would have an equal chance of ending up in any quintile. E.g. if you parents were born in the bottom 20% of earners, you should have a 20% chance of staying in the bottom, 20% in the next quintile, 20% in the middle, 20% in the 2nd highest, and 20% in the top. In turn, kids of wealthy should have the same results.

The reality in the US is quite different. Specifically, the top and bottom are "sticky;" if you're in the top, you're likely to stay in the top. If you're in the bottom, you're likely to stay in the bottom.

economix-10relativeincomemobility-blog480-v2.jpg


This is not the case in many OECD/European nations, where mobility -- while far from the ideal flat results -- is far better than the US.

Yes, that's right. You have a better chance of moving up the ladder in France or Canada than in the US.

Meanwhile, research has shown that education is one of the few factors that can boost one's chances of moving up (or staying at the top)

http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2012/pursuingamericandreampdf.pdf

Given a choice between the outcomes of one person's life when the outcomes of alternatives are unknown, and statistics based on millions of Americans? I'll take the latter.
 
Meanwhile, research has shown that education is one of the few factors that can boost one's chances of moving up (or staying at the top)

Fine.

Now show me the link to the unbiased study that proves that getting a degree in America (along with the big debt that come with it) in a field you will not be pursuing helps one in their professional life.

Because that is pretty much all that is being discussed here.

No one is saying that if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer that you should not go to university. Or are they saying that if you can go to college free - for some reason - that you should not go.

What I (and others) are saying is that if you are American and you do not know what you want to be that you should not just assume that taking ANYTHING in university (along with the giant college debt you will have) is better than doing something else (start a business, travel, work, whatever) until you DO know what you want to be.
 
So basically, the Navy provided you with the equivalent of a tertiary education.

That's great, but there are also a lot of people who serve who don't wind up with those kinds of job skills; or whose military service resulted in physical, medical and other challenges (e.g. PTSD).



Sorry, but that's basically nonsense.

Your experience is merely an anecdote, and is rife with problems. Your own experience obviously doesn't include the dozens of people who had drive and ambition and aptitude, but got some bad breaks, or wanted jobs that required higher education. Equally important is that we have no way to re-run your life as though you had gone to college, instead of opting for military service. It's entirely plausible that you could have earned much higher wages throughout your entire lifetime in that scenario. We don't know; we can't know.

What we do know is that in the aggregate, people who only have a high school degree or less have much worse lifetime outcomes than those with more education. They are more likely to be unemployed; their average earnings are significantly lower. They did far worse in the wake of the financial crisis than those with a bachelor's degree. We also know that job opportunities for that cohort are increasingly put under pressure.

We can also look at income inequality statistics. If we lived in a truly meritocratic world, each person born into each quintile would have an equal chance of ending up in any quintile. E.g. if you parents were born in the bottom 20% of earners, you should have a 20% chance of staying in the bottom, 20% in the next quintile, 20% in the middle, 20% in the 2nd highest, and 20% in the top. In turn, kids of wealthy should have the same results.

The reality in the US is quite different. Specifically, the top and bottom are "sticky;" if you're in the top, you're likely to stay in the top. If you're in the bottom, you're likely to stay in the bottom.

economix-10relativeincomemobility-blog480-v2.jpg


This is not the case in many OECD/European nations, where mobility -- while far from the ideal flat results -- is far better than the US.

Yes, that's right. You have a better chance of moving up the ladder in France or Canada than in the US.

Meanwhile, research has shown that education is one of the few factors that can boost one's chances of moving up (or staying at the top)

http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2012/pursuingamericandreampdf.pdf

Given a choice between the outcomes of one person's life when the outcomes of alternatives are unknown, and statistics based on millions of Americans? I'll take the latter.

Being poor is a mindset, nothing more. (excluding the disabled)
 
Being poor is a mindset, nothing more. (excluding the disabled)

True.

It amazes me how much condescension and class prejudice is coming out here.

I get the strong impression that those that are gaga about college seem to think those who don't go are truly second-class citizens. Unworthy of greatness or equality.

Sad and pathetic.
 
FAIR AND JUST

I hope you enjoyed defeating the strawman you created. I never claimed college is the only way to get ahead.

Good day.

Why are you ALL fixated upon post-secondary schooling as a "way to get ahead" - which translates into "having more money".

Is that myopia the only pursuit of happiness? How about further education simply to make people more knowledgeable about the world around them and NOT ONLY what ever "benefit" they can personally obtain from it.

Look around you. You live in a collective. If you were taken and dropped in the middle of an Alaskan forest, you'd probably die from hunger in a week. (If not eaten by a bear).

This "collective" we call the USofA is a market-economy in which you are just One Participant. But, it is the key-mechanism that gives us all what we need and, perhaps, all we might want. (Though the latter is likely more debilitating than the former given some excesses.)

That provider market-economy must fair and just - though not necessarily "equal" in the distribution of its goods/services. (That's where "socialism" got it all wrong.)

But neither is our present version of capitalism all-that-right. We've got all wrong the major tool for governments to collect revenue - called "taxation" - towards leveling the playing field. Iow, allowing a "fair and just" provision of specific services to the nation. (Namely, a Free Tertiary Education and a National Health System - both of which in their "private" versions are woefully expensive*.)

*And if you don't believe that bit above about the cost of HealthCare, then have a look at this infographic:
ftotHealthExp_pC_USD_long-485x550.png
 
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Formulating personalities and outlooks alone won't buy them many hamburgers. It is up to the actual production generated by the individual. .

Bollocks to the "individual". As I have said elsewhere in this thread, if I dropped you in the middle of the Alaskan forest, you'd probably be dead in a week.

You live in a market-economy that consists of individuals but the context is one of Collective Demand. That Collective Demand is Supplied by a Collective Workforce.

It is the means by which you Live and Make a living. (These are not the same!)

Thus, your notion of the "individual" in this day in age is both outdated, arrogant and selfish ...

Not many people have the time to sit around in La La land like yourself concocting these euphoric social scenarios. You want to go to college......fine! Pick a major that is actually worth something.

An "education" makes the person, not just the worker. It is far more important to develop "values" than "know-how". (Though both are key.)

But, I expect that notion is lost on you ...
 
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