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Students Wanting to Fight Teachers

Well you were on at me about "giving up on the kid" when i suggested to separate bullies from their victims. But when they target the much bigger and compensated teacher who is there voluntarily it's time to give up on them?

There should be a 0 tolerance policy for violence regardless of who's the target. Put the bullies in a class of bullies, giving them a taste of what prison will be like since that's where most of them are headed, and let them go at it. Meanwhile everyone else can learn in peace

1) I don't believe in quitting on kids. There SHOULD be consequences. That is an important life lesson, but the real way to create a criminal is to quit on him. This kid isn't a "bully." He is a "tough guy." He thinks he is a badass. I'm sure we can guess his home life and the system he is in. And he is still a kid. Giving up on him isn't going to prevent any future thuggish behavior. The question is...how far can we go as a society to treat/reform the behavior? And does it work? I can tell you from personal experience...bad kids are not all bad. They are a product of nurture. Not just nature.

2)As for zero tolerance...zero tolerance for zero tolerance policies. Even violence. Example? I had a kid who was in 9th grade being bullied by an 18 year old junior. The 9th grader was grabbed and drug away from a table and the freshman took a swing (missed because my students got between and broke it up as I grabbed the junior who actually tried to hit me...to no avail...and he thought I was a student I think). Zero tolerance means we had to suspend both the victim and the bully.

We gave a call to the parents of the victim and informed them to consider it a vacation and that he did nothing wrong in our eyes. He defended himself and we had witnesses, but due to liability concerns we have to follow our policies. We will make sure he gets his work...blah blah blah.

Tl,dr...

Prison doesn't reform behavior and that should be the objective when dealing with an undisciplined student. Reform.


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Here is my one step plan for handling such situations:

Step 1: Don't become a teacher.

That is all. :)

Seriously, it is a lose/lose situation. If you handle it yourself physically people will blame you for playing cop. If you call the cops, the cops may very well hurt the kid and then you will be blamed for calling the cops to do your job. Expelling the kid isn't going to teach them a lesson. They are likely troubled, and kicking them out of school will just make them worse.

I honestly don't know how I would handle situations like that. I could not do that job.

I appreciate the honest response. It takes a special person for sure.


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That thug AND those that sat around filming instead of helping, should be expelled from school. What the hell is wrong with kids? No ****ing respect at all.

Kids raising kids. In a system where they have no hope. No jobs. Drugs and gangs are it. And look at the cultural values for the vast majority. A joke. It isn't just "gang culture," but a culture of ignorance. And you see it regardless of race for certain sections.


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I might get flamed for this...but...



Smack the ever loving **** out of these punks! That's what they need, what is most likely missing. We are forcing ourselves to conform to rules placed on us by society...rules we are not naturally acclaimed to. Force is needed, I don't give a **** what your parenting style is.

I'm a grappler by nature. This kid would have gotten tossed. And that is a lot less violent...or looks it. The thing is...violence frequently begets violence. Defense is one thing.


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I'm a grappler by nature. This kid would have gotten tossed. And that is a lot less violent...or looks it. The thing is...violence frequently begets violence. Defense is one thing.


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I don't mean, like, in the face.


I mean, right then and there, turn that kid over, put him over your knee, and spank him, in front of God and everyone.



See if he tries that stunt again after that.
 
I'm sure we can guess his home life and the system he is in. And he is still a kid. Giving up on him isn't going to prevent any future thuggish behavior. The question is...how far can we go as a society to treat/reform the behavior? And does it work? I can tell you from personal experience...bad kids are not all bad. They are a product of nurture. Not just nature.

I see this as the role of social workers, not educators. Or if they're going to go out of their way to help it shouldn't come at the expense of the other kids who are trying to learn

I'm sure if i even suggested detention you would call it giving up on them

2)As for zero tolerance...zero tolerance for zero tolerance policies. Even violence. Example? I had a kid who was in 9th grade being bullied by an 18 year old junior. The 9th grader was grabbed and drug away from a table and the freshman took a swing (missed because my students got between and broke it up as I grabbed the junior who actually tried to hit me...to no avail...and he thought I was a student I think). Zero tolerance means we had to suspend both the victim and the bully.

yeah i don't believe you, or that's the most asinine application of "zero tolerance" i've ever heard. Anyway, suspending is just rewarding bullies. I mean out of the box thinking like morgan freeman's character did when he took the drug user on top of the school roof and said "Go on jump" and my idea of a disruptors only classroom

We gave a call to the parents of the victim and informed them to consider it a vacation and that he did nothing wrong in our eyes. He defended himself and we had witnesses, but due to liability concerns we have to follow our policies. We will make sure he gets his work...blah blah blah.

due to liability...my collection application asked if i ever suspended, i would have sued ya'll if that were me and told you to shove the policy. I have a right to self defense and i have a right to learn in peace, which was utter failure on both accounts. If i'm going to "get a vacation and we'll make sure you get your work" i might as well be home schooled and not risk assault and a black mark on my record
 
I see this as the role of social workers, not educators. Or if they're going to go out of their way to help it shouldn't come at the expense of the other kids who are trying to learn

I'm sure if i even suggested detention you would call it giving up on them

You have obviously formulated my responses already. Do you want me to even bother replying? Do you want give me my answers now? I would prefer some kind of note that I can just copy and paste.

But seriously.

It is the job of social workers. I agree. We don't have a lot of those. And the teacher shouldn't be a parent or a cop either. Welcome to America. Sadly that teacher may be the only real "social worker" in the life of the kid at that point. And it is their moral and ethical obligation to try and educate every kid in the class room. And just quitting on them is lazy. If you can't hack it as a teacher, don't become one. It isn't an easy job. Just like a cop or a nurse or social worker.

And I'm not saying it is supposed to be easy. And that you won't fail more than you win. But if 1 in the 25 or 1 in 50 kids you actually try on...turns his life around...or at least...gets SOMETHING and doesn't end up wasting his life? That is a victory.

As for detention: why would I oppose that? Just like any other discipline method...there is a time and a place. Some lazy teachers will just hand them out like nothing, but that really reduces the effectiveness.

yeah i don't believe you, or that's the most asinine application of "zero tolerance" i've ever heard. Anyway, suspending is just rewarding bullies. I mean out of the box thinking like morgan freeman's character did when he took the drug user on top of the school roof and said "Go on jump" and my idea of a disruptors only classroom

So you would threaten a kid with death? Anyway. Zero tolerance means 0 tolerance. The kid took a swing back. That's fighting. Welcome to liability and insurance determining rules and policies. Stupid isn't it? Try working the industry. It blows chunks.


due to liability...my collection application asked if i ever suspended, i would have sued ya'll if that were me and told you to shove the policy. I have a right to self defense and i have a right to learn in peace, which was utter failure on both accounts. If i'm going to "get a vacation and we'll make sure you get your work" i might as well be home schooled and not risk assault and a black mark on my record

So let's put this out there into your brain space:

We don't suspend the victim. He comes back to school with a weapon.

Or.

We now have every kid claiming self defense.

Any direction you spin this...you have the school getting sued. And the liability insurance is going to get your claim thrown way the hell out of court of court if our policy says "0 tolerance for fighting" and multiple witnesses have you throwing a punch. Even if you are in the right.

You understand I don't disagree with you right? But if you want a 0 tolerance policy...that is what it is. Complete bull**** that does not account for facts. And it is a result of insurance and liability law. Back to Morgan Freeman...imagine what would happen to a teacher now? He would be crucified. And broke school district? They would too.

Zero tolerance means you don't review what happened and make a judgement. You review the facts...and if it did...you have a preset Punishment and you cannot change it.


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That too is a problem. What they, however,miss just like you said....pointless violence. I'm talking about punishment. A spanking.

Povert Cycle...
 
And I'm not saying it is supposed to be easy. And that you won't fail more than you win. But if 1 in the 25 or 1 in 50 kids you actually try on...turns his life around...or at least...gets SOMETHING and doesn't end up wasting his life? That is a victory.

Except in coddling the 1 in 25 bullies you can turn around, you give up on their victims and everyone else who is distracted by their antics. But you don't seem to give a damn about that. If a student with perfect grades has to transfer because can't take it any more, because a handful of C-D burnouts are making his life hell, and you want to spend months trying to "get thru" to the aggressors, something very wrong. This again has no relation to the real world. Try acting that way in the grocery store or at work, they'll call the cops or fire your ass and yes

So you would threaten a kid with death? Anyway. Zero tolerance means 0 tolerance. The kid took a swing back. That's fighting. Welcome to liability and insurance determining rules and policies. Stupid isn't it? Try working the industry. It blows chunks.

I guess you've never seen the movie. It has to drive the point across that crack would lead to his demise, that he's killing himself slowly, may as well just "do it expeditiously"

So let's put this out there into your brain space:

We don't suspend the victim. He comes back to school with a weapon.

That is so laughable. If anything, unjustly punishing the victim will cause him to come with a weapon in revenge. Knowing that would be your legal defense, i'd slap the school with a lawsuit the next day

Or.

We now have every kid claiming self defense.

Except you saw what happened. When it can be clearly established, and the supreme court has ruled that rights don't begin and end at the door, it's self defense period

You understand I don't disagree with you right? But if you want a 0 tolerance policy...that is what it is. Complete bull**** that does not account for facts.

i don't care what you call it. What i *meant* was the culprit is removed separated from the victim, as it is in the real world (except for stalker cases, in which you can get a restraining order). This is why high school is so often referred to as a prison. Except usually in the real world you need a conviction first!
 
Advocating fighting back isnt going to solve the problem. The school should have a zero tolerance policy, an automatic expulsion, AND a commitment to press charges in every incident. School districts should work with state legislatures to ensure sentencing recommendations. Strike a teacher, you graduate with the class from the juvenile detention facility.

Which isnt to say teachers shouldnt have the right to defend themselves. But this should be a one and done situation and the school should be very public about it
 
The student failed to do what was told. The student started the fight. Please spare me the memes. Just tell me what your logic is.


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I can not find the most suitable facepalm anymore
 
Except in coddling the 1 in 25 bullies you can turn around, you give up on their victims and everyone else who is distracted by their antics. But you don't seem to give a damn about that. If a student with perfect grades has to transfer because can't take it any more, because a handful of C-D burnouts are making his life hell, and you want to spend months trying to "get thru" to the aggressors, something very wrong. This again has no relation to the real world. Try acting that way in the grocery store or at work, they'll call the cops or fire your ass and yes

As I have said to you in a previous post...do we just kill the bullies then? That seems like the only thing that would assuage your blood lust here. Those "A" students will be fine wherever they go. That jerk kid may only have 1 person in his life that actually might make a difference and keep him out of prison. And you want that person to give up on him. Send him to prison right now because he has no hope.

I guess you've never seen the movie. It has to drive the point across that crack would lead to his demise, that he's killing himself slowly, may as well just "do it expeditiously"

I understand where you were going. And that is why I'm using the phrase "put the bullies to death." Because while you seem to think you are not condoning that...you also are ok with teacher's taking a kid to the roof and telling him to jump.

That is so laughable. If anything, unjustly punishing the victim will cause him to come with a weapon in revenge. Knowing that would be your legal defense, i'd slap the school with a lawsuit the next day

Would be a waste of your money. You would lose every single day. Especially in the wake of kids who WERE bullied coming to school to murder their bullies. In real life. Studies have been done. And they have shown that a kid who is involved is just as likely to be violent.

Don't like it? Tough titty.


Except you saw what happened. When it can be clearly established, and the supreme court has ruled that rights don't begin and end at the door, it's self defense period

I saw what happened. The smaller kid took a swing too. That's fighting. Period. Bigger didn't throw the first punch. Period. And all of that is irrelevant. Every kid will claim it was self defense because you won't ever know what started it.

My advice? Stand up for yourself and take your punishment like a man...or adult.

i don't care what you call it. What i *meant* was the culprit is removed separated from the victim, as it is in the real world (except for stalker cases, in which you can get a restraining order). This is why high school is so often referred to as a prison. Except usually in the real world you need a conviction first!

It doesn't matter what you meant. You said zero tolerance. That has a specific meaning. Period. Don't like it? Use the correct words.

And out of sheer curiosity...has it been more than 10 years since you were in high school?


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yeah i don't believe you, or that's the most asinine application of "zero tolerance" i've ever heard. Anyway, suspending is just rewarding bullies. I mean out of the box thinking like morgan freeman's character did when he took the drug user on top of the school roof and said "Go on jump" and my idea of a disruptors only classroom

You should believe him. I was suspended when I was in school for defending myself in a fight. So was the other kid. Only difference was my suspension was shorter than the other kid who started the fight.

Zero Tolerance policies only hurt, never help.
 
As I have said to you in a previous post...do we just kill the bullies then? That seems like the only thing that would assuage your blood lust here. Those "A" students will be fine wherever they go. That jerk kid may only have 1 person in his life that actually might make a difference and keep him out of prison. And you want that person to give up on him. Send him to prison right now because he has no hope.

This is clearly not true. Victims of bullies are far more prone to depression and suicide. The teenage years are difficult enough

I understand where you were going. And that is why I'm using the phrase "put the bullies to death." Because while you seem to think you are not condoning that...you also are ok with teacher's taking a kid to the roof and telling him to jump.

He knew the kid wouldn't jump god. It was a very effective way to get a point across to a crackhead. But there's a reason he was the good guy in that film. He expelled all the drug dealers and malcontents so he could turn the school around, and he gave another chance to the kid who he saw regretted his actions

Would be a waste of your money. You would lose every single day. Especially in the wake of kids who WERE bullied coming to school to murder their bullies. In real life. Studies have been done. And they have shown that a kid who is involved is just as likely to be violent.

The supreme court ruling made clear you don't get to set any policy and deprive students of rights they would have outside school. And at first you were like "That's the policy and it sucks, my hands are tied," but now you're defending it by casting the victim as a mass murderer waiting to happen. Given there are FAR more bully victims than mass shooting, it's so easy to see thru this unsubstantiated claim. Oh and you're wrong that you wouldn't lose also:

"McDONOUGH — A former student of Henry County Schools won her day in court this week in a judgment handed down by the Georgia Court of Appeals.

The appellate court affirmed a lower court ruling Tuesday, stating that the Henry County Board of Education “abused its discretion by failing properly to apply self-defense standards” when it expelled the student for fighting on school grounds."

Court accepts ?self-defense? claim in school-yard fight | News | henryherald.com

Why? Like i said:

"In the landmark decision Tinker v. Des Moines School District (1969), the US Supreme Court ruled that students do not "shed their [Constitutional] rights at the schoolhouse gate." Self defense is a constitutional right - research the 9th and 14th Amendments. Therefore, according to the Supreme Court, which, by the way, is NOT the "final arbiter" of the Constitution, "anti-bullying" policies that prohibit self defense are unconstitutional. "

There's tons of lawsuits popping up now so you better all have a talk about making this policy more fair to victims. Here's another:

Texas Bullying Victim Gets Suspended from School for Defending Self, Parents Sue

"A North Texas teen acted in self-defense when he was being bullied in the school showers. He was suspended for his actions. Now, his parents, upset over that suspension, filed a lawsuit against the school district....In an act of self-defense, the teen said he hit both alleged offenders to try and get away."

I can't imagine a more clear case of self defense. Yet these same places with "stand your ground" laws allows kids of all people to be victimized with no recourse to defend themselves


I saw what happened. The smaller kid took a swing too. That's fighting. Period. Bigger didn't throw the first punch. Period. And all of that is irrelevant. Every kid will claim it was self defense because you won't ever know what started it.

My advice? Stand up for yourself and take your punishment like a man...or adult.


Taking punishment you don't deserve or standing there getting pummeled not defending yourself is not acting like a man and it's clear you hate victims. Now you're adding in details to the story of who swung first. A lot of schools now have security cams and there's been cases with PROOF that kids were suspended despite clearly acting in self defense

It doesn't matter what you meant. You said zero tolerance. That has a specific meaning. Period. Don't like it? Use the correct words.

zero tolerance towards bullies is what i said and meant, not the victims

And out of sheer curiosity...has it been more than 10 years since you were in high school?


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not at all
 
You should believe him. I was suspended when I was in school for defending myself in a fight. So was the other kid. Only difference was my suspension was shorter than the other kid who started the fight.

Zero Tolerance policies only hurt, never help.

i didn't believe because it is so asinine and coming from supposed educators, but then yeah i did find several cases including lawsuits against the schools

obviously zero tolerance can be applied only to the perpetrators, that's a damn easy policy to make

he keeps talking of victims being furious and going Columbine, but i'll tell you what would make me furious is to be attacked like the kid in the shower, and then suspended. I don't think even prisons operate that way
 
You should believe him. I was suspended when I was in school for defending myself in a fight. So was the other kid. Only difference was my suspension was shorter than the other kid who started the fight.

Zero Tolerance policies only hurt, never help.

They are ridiculous and a product of liability concerns. Removing judgement from the call and that sucks. I wish I could have protected the kid in my situation...but zero tolerance.


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i didn't believe because it is so asinine and coming from supposed educators, but then yeah i did find several cases including lawsuits against the schools

obviously zero tolerance can be applied only to the perpetrators, that's a damn easy policy to make

he keeps talking of victims being furious and going Columbine, but i'll tell you what would make me furious is to be attacked like the kid in the shower, and then suspended. I don't think even prisons operate that way

Sadly bully victims are frequently the ones who lash out. I don't know why that seems surprising? I think getting even/revenge is something a lot of people think about in the context of being victimized. There is a reason it is a Trope in literature.

Anyway. The pheromone...This is something you can google. I won't bother to link you sources...not so much because I'm lazy...but because I would rather you read this from your preferred sources (I found info from NBC, Huffpo, Mother Jones, and so on). And it is a legitimate concern.

As for the victims fighting back. I have no issue with that. But you are asking for schools to now play judge and jury? Good luck with that when both kids say "he started it." And then their parents are in their saying "he started it."

The real solution is that parents need to be parents. And kids need to learn how to handle bullies. And bullies need to learn social skills because they frequently become bullies due to being bullied themselves. Or home abuse. Or this that and the other. It is a complex problem. And there are limited resources. Nobody really wants to be a teacher either. Bad pay. Everything is your fault. Blah blah blah ad naseum.



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Sadly bully victims are frequently the ones who lash out. I don't know why that seems surprising? I think getting even/revenge is something a lot of people think about in the context of being victimized. There is a reason it is a Trope in literature.

Omg it's a trope because it's fantasy, people like to see redemption and even revenge. But seriously count the number of mass shooting on one hand, and then count the number of bully victims who are driven to self harm that your school policy does nothing to protect

As for the victims fighting back. I have no issue with that. But you are asking for schools to now play judge and jury? Good luck with that when both kids say "he started it." And then their parents are in their saying "he started it."

For god sakes get some cameras. This is like that prison show "Oz", where everyone gets shanked and everyone plays "gee i wonder what happened"

Now i will tell you in one of the lawsuits that the victim won, a recording the school freaking had showed clearly it was self defense. So that's a slam dunk for any lawyer. Now in the other it was the shower so no cameras, the victim still won. Sometimes it's really damn clear and yes, the school policy SHOULD be zero tolerance against the aggressor only, just like law outside schools, AND there should be attempt to establish who the aggressor was

At my 2nd school the teachers had to watch the halls at all times during the bell period. There should be supervision everywhere. And guess what, far less violence. Actually i saw only one fight


The real solution is that parents need to be parents. And kids need to learn how to handle bullies. And bullies need to learn social skills because they frequently become bullies due to being bullied themselves. Or home abuse. Or this that and the other. It is a complex problem. And there are limited resources. Nobody really wants to be a teacher either. Bad pay. Everything is your fault. Blah blah blah ad naseum.

I'm blaming the school system for failing to protect kids who want to learn, not just the teachers. On one hand you're dealing with concrete problems with concrete solutions and on the other, relying on parents to not suck and on sociopaths to act normal and victims who are attacked 5 on 1 to "handle bullies" (which would lead to punishment according to you) is another fantasy. It just won't magically happen
 
I'd fake with the right then catch the side of his jaw with a left hook. I'd claim that he fell off the swing.

Then he could seethe at me for a couple of months through wires and rubber bands. Sorry Charlie.
 
I wish students could attack teachers and that teachers were allowed to fight back... GOD DAMN!! That would be awesome.
 
Send them to juvie and the courts should order counseling sessions.

Doesn't really help Kal. They earn "cred" when they get kicked out, and many of them would rather not be in school in the first place. Myself, I would just as soon run errands for the local bookies than being locked up in a school all day. I got sent to "Juvie" a few times back in my day. I, along with most others in there with me didn't give a **** either way when it came right down to it. I eventually quit school altogether at the beginning of the 10th grade after I relocated to Maine.

Boston's juvenile detention was nicknamed "Youthie" back in my day. 75% percent of us were repeats in the system. I had 3 long term stays, and a 2 week stay inside there. "Youthie" was 10X more violent than school or the streets, and most of us in there only came out more brazen. Even the counselors knew we were only telling them what they wanted to hear just so we could to get back out on the streets. The kids ran the system because we knew they were limited in regards to how long they could hold us, and what they could do when they had us.

The ones that escaped that life usually are the ones like me who had some life changing events. For me, it was a Navy recruiter who for some reason or other took a interest in me.
 
Most of these kids face violence at home and after school... what they need is not more violence.

Ditto!

90% of the punks that I ran with were all from bad homes with drunk mom's & dad's. Some of the guys had criminals for parents who were actually proud when the kid came home with 10 cartons of smokes. Violence in the home was pretty normal for most of us and in some cases like mine, extreme. My old man died in the Massachuesetts prison system 8 years ago.
 
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