Which way out?

thevmstube said:

LOL... this has been much fun and at the same time it has been an exposure of my flip-tripping less-than-I-think-it-is erudition.
Some read and perhaps grin at the disguised meaning of my words and phrases such that they would have lauded me with bouquets of intelligent prose.
But a single typo, exposes me as a the dunce I am.
Well all is good as we have witnessed yet again they partisan stupidity of Texan educators even without my cap on.

--- On the stool firmly planted in the corner and trying not to giggle.

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Uh-huh...

A lot of people complain about teachers and their failings. But are they failing.

Each state has a department of education which determines what will and will not be taught in schools with a little help from the feds (no child left behind or EVERY child left behind)

There are supposed to be teachers on the committee that help make these decisions but quite often they are political appointees who simply mimic the views of the administration or know which side their bread is buttered.

I am not sure what the answer is because I am not sure the various teacher groups like NEA would not much up the works. BUT maybe just maybe do a national appraisal of where we are failing as a nation and try and stick in courses to correct it. But first we have to stop the insane process or testing our kids to death. in the modern USA that is all they know how to do. Then those that get to most universities are lost because they must apply their minds to the issues being taught. They have no idea how.

In Europe the method is to teach the children practical application of what is being taught so as to teach the children how to think. And I doubt that most European parents are anymore involved than those here. The other difference is that the level of testing is WAY below what it is here. BY the time the kid reaches our equivalent of middle school the system knows with a fair degree of certainty what the kid is capable of. This is because the teachers pay attention to how the child is learning AND they talk to one another. Reports on the child are not about their grades but their ability to learn the lessons being taught.

My particular view for this country would adopt much of that but add some extra points. Make citizenship or CIVICs a mandatory course during the middle school years (All three) and personal finance a mandatory course during the high school years. Also eliminate any course that the child will not need. Like teaching trig to a kid who will never go to college.
I lived in Georgia for a number of years and the things that made me angry were the following.

The middle school and high schools there required more stringent courses than the universities did for entry. Many of which the child would never take in college AND they required the child to do their lessons by a mechanical means (my way or the highway). For example I have a developmentally disabled child who could not understand the way his math teachers showed him to do his lessons. I taught him another way that he could and his grades went up. I was told flat out to stop teaching him my way because "it was confusing him". Once I did his grades dropped again. I had the same problem with my NT daughter. It reminded me of 19th century education where the kids would be beaten if they did not do their lessons the way the teacher wanted.

Improvisation is how we learn.

Teacher evaluations would be how the child is measured with occasional tests to confirm or reject what the teacher is seeing. Remember tests are subjective, they are a moment in time. You can take a test at 10am and get one score and take it again at 3pm and get another score.

I do agree that tests like the ACT and SAT are necessary since they are a MEASURE of which kids MAY have the ability to deal with college.

But the politicos at the state and federal level will never relinquish this power so it will never happen.

And if you think private or charter schools are the answer my response is the billionaire buffoon DeVoss who thinks schools are attacked by grizzly bears.

Risky Thicket said:

The problem is, sadly, most parents are not very involved in their children's education, if they are involved at all. Anyone who has ever attended school board meetings on a regular basis is well aware of the fact that if there isn't a hot button issue on the agenda you can count the number of parents on two hands.

School board meetings are as local as it gets and parents don't attend.

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I gotta disagree to a point.

Public schools are worse than useless. Teachers who are dumb as posts...most of them more bureaucrats than educators.
I literally learned absolutely NOTHING in high school (public) that I have ever needed except how to write an essay, Pythagorean's theorem and algebra (andI learned ALL that in Grade 9). Every, single thing else I have needed I either knew before high school or I learned - on my own - after high school. That's 4 years almost completely wasted, scholastically (and I skipped Grade 1 because it was too easy - so I am no dummy).
The best public school I went to (an I went to many) was light years worse than the worst private school I went to (and I went to several).

Imo, the problem with public schools is they refuse to admit that they stink. Such notions makes them defensive and once people's backs are up - there is no reasoning with them. They should concentrate on the basics - which they do not now. Forget shop classes (which I took) and other classes that cost piles of tax funds and put the money towards better paid teachers who have to go through rigorous training to become teachers.
If students want to learn to fix cars? Fine...ship them off to local garages where they can work at a real shop and learn first hand. The shops have to actually teach the kids something useful (not just how to clean a floor) and in return they get free help around the shop. The same with just about any other area a student wants to study.
ANd parents? Most are worse than useless, imo. Let's not forget, many of these people are the same 'parents' who - even though they could afford to raise their children - chose to ship them off to daycare (with more underpaid people) so they can go to work longer and have more money for a bigger swimming pool.
Most parents are selfish and useless (with obvious exceptions) - and I will not debate this, as there is NOTHING you can say that will change my mind on this - most parents suck at it. The last thing they should be doing is getting involved in their children's school curriculum.
It's simple. From Grades 1-8 (maybe 6 or 7)...JUST teach the children the basics...NOTHING else. Make it so they are fabulously knowledgeable about math, science, english, hopefully another language, geography, politics AND HISTORY (a staggeringly underappreciated subject, imo) - WAY more so than most of their parents are today. And once they get to high school - prepare them for the real world. Ask them what they want to learn and then find ways to let them get hands on knowledge of the subjects they crave.
And one final thing...exercise. Every day, every student in every school should HAVE to walk/run or wheel (if they are in wheelchairs) around a designated area (indoors or out). Nothing crazy...just a brisk walk for a half an hour. More is better...but use this as a baseline. And make it mandatory. Exercise is great for the body and the mind - even a relatively small amount.

But I think the most important thing is to make schools very basic, with well paid, well trained and WELL MOTIVATED teachers....who care about their kids, show them respect (especially in high school) and truly want to see them do well. Of the teachers I had in public school - I felt that way about maybe 10% of them...maybe. Most seemed like they couldn't give a crap.

Anyway, those are my ideas for a better informed/educated student...even within the INCREDIBLY FLAWED public school system.

Risky Thicket said:

The problem is, sadly, most parents are not very involved in their children's education, if they are involved at all. Anyone who has ever attended school board meetings on a regular basis is well aware of the fact that if there isn't a hot button issue on the agenda you can count the number of parents on two hands.

School board meetings are as local as it gets and parents don't attend.

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When I was in school (1950's-60's) parents were actively discouraged from participating.

thevmstube said:

It seems to me that fact and truth have been replaced with innuendo and lie.
Is there any chance that those so doggedly attached to the media have hope of being edified? intellectual remediation?
I don't want to give up hope that our nation can be intelligent again but so much seems to point to a disastrous future for our citizenry who may be the most woefully uninformed on the planet... while being, at the same time, the most wickedly armed.

I'm just sort of getting concerned. I should have been concerned before.

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The lying new administration has it's own version of truth, facts and reality. So too do their supporters.

Andrew Sullivan: The Madness of King Donald

I want to start with Trump’s lies. It’s now a commonplace that Trump and his underlings tell whoppers. Fact-checkers have never had it so good. But all politicians lie. Bill Clinton could barely go a day without some shading or parsing of the truth. Richard Nixon was famously tricky. But all the traditional political fibbers nonetheless paid some deference to the truth — even as they were dodging it. They acknowledged a shared reality and bowed to it. They acknowledged the need for a common set of facts in order for a liberal democracy to function at all. Trump’s lies are different. They are direct refutations of reality — and their propagation and repetition is about enforcing his power rather than wriggling out of a political conundrum. They are attacks on the very possibility of a reasoned discourse, the kind of bald-faced lies that authoritarians issue as a way to test loyalty and force their subjects into submission. That first press conference when Sean Spicer was sent out to lie and fulminate to the press about the inauguration crowd reminded me of some Soviet apparatchik having his loyalty tested to see if he could repeat in public what he knew to be false. It was comical, but also faintly chilling.

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DA60 said:

I gotta disagree to a point.

Public schools are worse than useless. Teachers who are dumb as posts...most of them more bureaucrats than educators.
I literally learned absolutely NOTHING in high school (public) that I have ever needed except how to write an essay, Pythagorean's theorem and algebra (andI learned ALL that in Grade 9). Every, single thing else I have needed I either knew before high school or I learned - on my own - after high school. That's 4 years almost completely wasted, scholastically (and I skipped Grade 1 because it was too easy - so I am no dummy).
The best public school I went to (an I went to many) was light years worse than the worst private school I went to (and I went to several).

Imo, the problem with public schools is they refuse to admit that they stink. Such notions makes them defensive and once people's backs are up - there is no reasoning with them. They should concentrate on the basics - which they do not now. Forget shop classes (which I took) and other classes that cost piles of tax funds and put the money towards better paid teachers who have to go through rigorous training to become teachers.
If students want to learn to fix cars? Fine...ship them off to local garages where they can work at a real shop and learn first hand. The shops have to actually teach the kids something useful (not just how to clean a floor) and in return they get free help around the shop. The same with just about any other area a student wants to study.
ANd parents? Most are worse than useless, imo. Let's not forget, many of these people are the same 'parents' who - even though they could afford to raise their children - chose to ship them off to daycare (with more underpaid people) so they can go to work longer and have more money for a bigger swimming pool.
Most parents are selfish and useless (with obvious exceptions) - and I will not debate this, as there is NOTHING you can say that will change my mind on this - most parents suck at it. The last thing they should be doing is getting involved in their children's school curriculum.
It's simple. From Grades 1-8 (maybe 6 or 7)...JUST teach the children the basics...NOTHING else. Make it so they are fabulously knowledgeable about math, science, english, hopefully another language, geography, politics AND HISTORY (a staggeringly underappreciated subject, imo) - WAY more so than most of their parents are today. And once they get to high school - prepare them for the real world. Ask them what they want to learn and then find ways to let them get hands on knowledge of the subjects they crave.
And one final thing...exercise. Every day, every student in every school should HAVE to walk/run or wheel (if they are in wheelchairs) around a designated area (indoors or out). Nothing crazy...just a brisk walk for a half an hour. More is better...but use this as a baseline. And make it mandatory. Exercise is great for the body and the mind - even a relatively small amount.

But I think the most important thing is to make schools very basic, with well paid, well trained and WELL MOTIVATED teachers....who care about their kids, show them respect (especially in high school) and truly want to see them do well. Of the teachers I had in public school - I felt that way about maybe 10% of them...maybe. Most seemed like they couldn't give a crap.

Anyway, those are my ideas for a better informed/educated student...even within the INCREDIBLY FLAWED public school system.

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Good public schools do exist but really in areas that value education. For example I was reading an article about a public school here in Montreal that had parents lining up outside more than 24 hours in advance in -25C cold just to register their children for kindergarten. And one of my coworkers during my work term was trying to get her daughter into an elite public school with an international baccalaureate. Her daughter is ~5 and has to do a battery of tests just to get in. Good public schools need a good community to support them.

I also do not think you know the sacrifice it takes for someone to become a stay at home parent. They are sacrificing usually around half the household's income which most people cannot do especially in places with stressed housing markets as well as sacrificing career advancement.

Also about the walking thing I do not think you have ever lived in place that is cold most of the school year and trying to herd kids is like trying herd cats.

thevmstube said:

It seems to me that fact and truth have been replaced with innuendo and lie.
Is there any chance that those so doggedly attached to the media have hope of being edified? intellectual remediation?
I don't want to give up hope that our nation can be intelligent again but so much seems to point to a disastrous future for our citizenry who may be the most woefully uninformed on the planet... while being, at the same time, the most wickedly armed.

I'm just sort of getting concerned. I should have been concerned before.

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You should have been concerned when you noticed that science was getting corrupted, when what was advertised as results of scientific study were clearly the wishes and dreams of those who made it rather than findings of fact.

The way out is clearly that those in charge, the people, to start caring about understanding reality correctly again.

We are nowhere nears that point.

Risky Thicket said:

Betty Weir, a former director of special education for Orange County Schools (Florida) would not have been pleased at all to hear your former special ed colleague say, "the majority of special ed kids are basically, and this is no offense to anyone, ineducable". I once knew Betty fairly well. This may have been before your time there. Betty didn't cotton to any crap.

As things go I volunteered to become involved with special education on the school board on which I served. No one else was all that interested in it. I think we'd both agree that there is little or no political capital in special education. In my experience a surprising (to me at the time) number of school board members are politically motivated. School boards are often a jumping board for public office.

Being around special education students, teachers and staff was the bright spot of my time on the school board. I even took time from work every once in a while to fill in for a day as a substitute teacher. I learned more from the kids than they learned from me. I also learned that teaching is a one hell of a tough job. I do not know how you all do it. You certainly aren't paid enough for the work you do.

Your colleague sounds as if she was burned out or frustrated or both. In either event she was incorrect. Disabled kids are amazing. They fight against so much often including the attitudes of most people who do not have disabilities. They want to contribute, they want to be employed and they want to be respected for the work they do. They want to enjoy equality.

Through teachers and staff I was able to follow the progress of a number of special education students:

One owns her own graphic arts agency.

One, a paraplegic, is a private detective.

Another had continued to be employed by a grocery store for over 10 years the last I heard. He was/is dependable, task oriented and motivated. He had been promoted to stock supervisor the last I heard.

One guy who had rather involved dyslexia owns three businesses and recently bought a new house that listed for over $750,000. I still hear from him from time to time. He was bright student who had a terrible time reading. His parents asked for a meeting I met with them and him and that is how I became involved. I was able to get him into a program that I wasn't aware of at the time.

I knew blind kids, deaf kids, kids with CP, kids who has severe emotional disabilities, kids who had Downs, kids who were deafblind, fetal alcohol kids and more. They were all educable. Some of course at different levels than others. Almost all were or would one day be employable. Knowing them and their teachers and para-professionals made me a better person. I am forever grateful to all of them for teaching me. Much of the limitations they faced then and probably face today are the attitudes of people who aren't disabled.

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I don't look at cognitive scores anymore. I sit and listen at the IEP meetings, but I learned a lesson along my many years of teaching. Back in 1992 there were two twins in the school where I taught. One had CP the other was the 'star' of the family. I felt the one who had CP (Jack) was always ignored by the family because they constantly focused and talked about the other so much. I had Jack and he was by far, hands down, one of the most motivated kids with a work ethic unmatched. I did not have Jon but he was an honor roll student, didn't have to struggle for good grades, so even if he did half the work expected, he would be able to ace any test. Years later I happened to run into the mother and as I do with any of my former students asked about Jack. He had opened his own real estate company and was doing very well. It didn't surprise me one bit. She didn't say much about the other twin so I didn't pry, but would hear a few years later he was a full blown alcoholic and at that time unemployed. I really felt bad for him. There is little doubt in my mind that motivation will be the determining factor for success. Being born with high intelligence or with a learning disability really won't determine the future.

rabbitcaebannog said:

I don't look at cognitive scores anymore. I sit and listen at the IEP meetings, but I learned a lesson along my many years of teaching. Back in 1992 there were two twins in the school where I taught. One had CP the other was the 'star' of the family. I felt the one who had CP (Jack) was always ignored by the family because they constantly focused and talked about the other so much. I had Jack and he was by far, hands down, one of the most motivated kids with a work ethic unmatched. I did not have Jon but he was an honor roll student, didn't have to struggle for good grades, so even if he did half the work expected, he would be able to ace any test. Years later I happened to run into the mother and as I do with any of my former students asked about Jack. He had opened his own real estate company and was doing very well. It didn't surprise me one bit. She didn't say much about the other twin so I didn't pry, but would hear a few years later he was a full blown alcoholic and at that time unemployed. I really felt bad for him. There is little doubt in my mind that motivation will be the determining factor for success. Being born with high intelligence or with a learning disability really won't determine the future.

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Thanks for sharing that. Good on you and good on Jack. Often special ed kids really are special. I suspect the become successful adults because of the tenacity they developed early in life.

I hope Jon has found his way out of his addiction.