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In an Ideal World is College Necessary for Most jobs?

nota bene said:
There is also that uneasy sense in a democracy that one is "appearing better than one's fellows." I really do think that this is one underpinning of anti-intellectualism.
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I would split a hair or two on that one. I think in American society there is a great deal of pressure (for better or for worse) to ensure that the other guy does not appear better than one's fellows. However, in the midwest or upper-midwest there is that pressure to not appear better than one's fellows.
 
Brewdog said:
I just thought college was for drinking beer and getting laid. Was I supposed to learn some sh*t while I was there?
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To a large degree, it is about drinking beer and getting laid, and keeping bright young minds out of the labor market until they have matured enough to put those minds to use.

If we ended all colleges today, most of those students would still be drinking beer and getting laid and they would be unemployed or asking people if they "want fry's with that burger".

Might as well go to college and learn a little **** in addition to drinking beer.
 
Praxas said:
When I went through high school we also had vehicle maintenance and electrical studies.
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Every high school in my state has a vocational school that it buses students off to, or one within the high school itself.

Part of the problem with vocational training is that our society needs lots and lots of different job skills, but often not enough of any one skill to employ even a small classroom full of new hs grads. We don't need 5% of our new hs grads to be welders or automechanics or cosmotologists, and as often as not those skills from vocational school never get used and the students find themselves flipping burgers. Many employers do not wish to hire "skilled" 18 year olds because hiring young people is often problematic, and customers often don't want a zit faced kid fixing their car or cutting their hair.

The reality is that any able bodied person can learn a trade from on-the-job training much better than in a classroom - assuming that the person has sound reasoning and academic skills. Classrooms can't really teach the type of real life issues that come up for tradesmen, such as how to cope with crawling under a house to fix the wiring or plumbing or hvac when it's 12 degrees outside. An 8+ hour a day of real life assisting a skilled tradesman on the job can teach more than a weeks worth of classroom training.
 
DA60 said:
College? The MOST over rated institution on the planet.

Sure, if you are going to be a doctor, engineer, etc....you need vast amounts of schooling.

Most people go to college because they have no/little/the wrong idea what to do with themselves and it has been drilled into their heads that post-secondary education is the way to 'find yourself'.

NOOO...it is the worst possible place to find yourself. It is EXTREMELY expensive, sheltered and teaches you almost nothing about the real world.
You want to find yourself? Go out in the world and work to make ends meet BY YOURSELF...you will find yourself. Better still, do it somewhere where you have never been before and have no connections. You will find yourself REAL fast.

And 'yes'...I did go to university. Complete waste of my time in terms of helping me succeed in the real world.
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Part of the problem with that is that with many employers, there is a glass ceiling without a college degree.

I know someone who worked themselves up to VP of a company only to be let go because one of the reasons the company was having a hard time borrowing expansion money was that lenders wanted to see a stronger resume for the top executives. The owner/president wasn't going to replace himself with a MBA, so he replaced his right hand man with a MBA employee.

I held 3 jobs between the time I graduated college and started my own company, my degree didn't really help me in day to day activities for any of those jobs, but I wouldn't have even gotten an interview without the degree. Now that I'm self employed, I find the knowledge about finance and management and business law and accounting and marketing and computer programming that I gained in college to be very valuable.
 
jet57 said:
No. College educations indicate a discipline and immerse one in the field of endeavor: it's a"club" of sorts. History shows us that good on the job training and a willingness to see it through can replace a diploma very easily.
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Sure, but not having that degree can limit the number of interview opportunities one may have when they are seeking a job. Doesn't particularly matter that I became the best X in the world while working for Y company when company Z requires a degree before it will even interview someone.
 
DA60 said:
And how exactly does one make a good living with a degree in Elizabethan Poetry? Or some other nonsensical degree that the private sector has no call for?
You are saying $50-100,000 in student loans is worth that?
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The VP of a company my son used to work for had a BA in Music. I'm sure that a degree in Elizabethan Poetry would have been just as valuable to him as he worked his way up the corporate ladder.

And a degree in Elizabethan Poetry can get someone into Law School or Medical School or even a MBA program. One's major as an undergrad isn't nearly as important as we tend to think it is. Most of the time, college isn't about career training, it's simply about learning to think, growing up, and being able to complete a program.
 
imagep said:
Sure, but not having that degree can limit the number of interview opportunities one may have when they are seeking a job. Doesn't particularly matter that I became the best X in the world while working for Y company when company Z requires a degree before it will even interview someone.
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That's not necessarily true because it depends on the job market: more jobs, more interviews. Union trade workers didn't go on interviews anyway, we had the hiring hall, so every time an employer called for temporary or full timers a skilled man OR women in office work, showed up. College isn't for everybody but a loaded job market is.
 
DA60 said:
I have run my own company for over 20 years. A university degree in something that has nothing to do with the job they are applying for does not impress me at all.

People that get hired for jobs - other than if the job specifically requires a college degree in that field - rarely get hired primarily for their education background.

Top 10 reasons employers want to hire you - CNN.com

7 Reasons Employers Will Hire You


If you know what you want to be and you know that career requires post-secondary education...than college can be a good/necessary next step. But if you have no clue and you are going to college just to 'find yourself' (and especially if you have to pay for it - as most do), imo, it is a terrible thing to do.
Find yourself in the real world first - for free. Then decide. But starting out your working life with a huge debt that may help you not at all is silly.
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Try to get a job as an airplane pilot at a major airline without a college degree. Or an entry level management job at a rental car company. Or a job as a dept supervisor at a manufacturing plant.

My wife has to cousins who major in Psychology. Useless major, right? One is the HR manager for a major company that employees thousands of people, the other is the office manager for a large law firm.

I see tons of jobs advertised that require a degree - but no specific major. Especially a lot of B2B sales jobs and entry level management jobs.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Most people should be looking to go into business for themselves eventually,..
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I really don't think that "most people" have what it takes to be self employed, let alone to operate a "real" business. And we certainly don't need 250 thousand businesses in a city where we have 250 thousand families.

Business ownership is for someone who is willing to take a risk, not only with his money but also with his ego. Business ownership is also for those who feel that they can accomplish anything and do anything, most people don't have that kind of confidence in themselves, and they shouldn't.
 
UtahBill said:
Well, you shouldn't be using absolutes....you can become wealthy if you plan for it starting while still in High School. I never got incredible wages, but did take advantage of education to be somewhat above average in technical fields. The Navy sent me to some good schools and I used that in my civilian life to my benefit. I also married a girl who was willing to work once the kids got in school. She became a teacher. Between us, we earned a lot, and then we did what appears to be not so common, we spent only a little of it. We avoided debt, paid off the house early, paid cash for cars, lived comfortably, and saved for our future. Now we think we are rich.....$1.1 million in assets, and $150K in retirement income. Along the way we paid for our 2 children's college and first cars (used). We plan on doing the same for 7 grandchildren.
It can be done....
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Depends on how we define "wealthy".

The "Millionaire Next Door" isn't typically rich in terms of assets and can often only be considered "secure" if they happen to have a good size guaranteed retirement income. A million dollar net worth is like a nice home, a couple of nice cars and a houseful of nice chattle plus a decent size IRA. That can be lost easily with a small series of catastrophic events beyond ones control.

I once knew this guy who retired early, thought that he had more than enough net wealth, decided to start a business, then had several illnesses one after the other, his business never got past the infancy stage but it was sucking him dry, a year and a half after his early retirement he had filed bankruptcy, lost both his houses,and he had to return to full time employment. $1.5 million gone in a blink of the eye.
 
blackjack50 said:
Exactly as the title says...would it be?

In my personal opinion it wouldn't be. Most jobs CAN be done with a high school level of education. Maybe they require a bit of training, but a high school diploma provides the requisite educational skills needed.

So.
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What is this "ideal world?" Is it your interpretation of the USA circa 1955?

Do you really think doctors only need a high school degree? That the 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, and 3+ years of residency are superfluous?

Do you think that a typical high school graduate has enough engineering knowledge to build a bridge? Design a building properly?

Does your perfect world not require any accountants or lawyers?

Do most CEOs have only a high school diploma? Do they not need to know anything about finance, accounting, law, and management?

Who will teach the high school teachers?

Did you actually sit down and figure out what jobs Americans actually do today, before deciding that no one needs a college degree?

Is education only about getting a job?
 
imagep said:
Depends on how we define "wealthy".

The "Millionaire Next Door" isn't typically rich in terms of assets and can often only be considered "secure" if they happen to have a good size guaranteed retirement income. A million dollar net worth is like a nice home, a couple of nice cars and a houseful of nice chattle plus a decent size IRA. That can be lost easily with a small series of catastrophic events beyond ones control.

I once knew this guy who retired early, thought that he had more than enough net wealth, decided to start a business, then had several illnesses one after the other, his business never got past the infancy stage but it was sucking him dry, a year and a half after his early retirement he had filed bankruptcy, lost both his houses,and he had to return to full time employment. $1.5 million gone in a blink of the eye.
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Retiring early without medical benefits? That ain't smart.... wife and I started using Tricare at age 60 when I retired from the Navy Reserve. There was an 18 month period before that where I had a catastrophic policy, didn't use it except for the annual physical. She had her employer's insurance plus my retiree status Tricare.
Add that to our medicare at 65, and you can't get better insurance. No copays, no deductibles. Push comes to shove, I could still use the VA. I can't lose my income, wife can't lose hers. We can live quite well on $150K per year, and that much will easily cover both of us in nursing homes if it comes to that....
 
imagep said:
Depends on how we define "wealthy".

The "Millionaire Next Door" isn't typically rich in terms of assets and can often only be considered "secure" if they happen to have a good size guaranteed retirement income. A million dollar net worth is like a nice home, a couple of nice cars and a houseful of nice chattle plus a decent size IRA. That can be lost easily with a small series of catastrophic events beyond ones control.

I once knew this guy who retired early, thought that he had more than enough net wealth, decided to start a business, then had several illnesses one after the other, his business never got past the infancy stage but it was sucking him dry, a year and a half after his early retirement he had filed bankruptcy, lost both his houses,and he had to return to full time employment. $1.5 million gone in a blink of the eye.
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And yet another argument for single-payer healthcare.
 
Carjosse said:
And yet another argument for single-payer healthcare.
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You mean something for nothing? That is what it is to many of my own relatives. They are the ones who just take.
I suppose my younger brother has paid in enough by now, thru the tobacco taxes he has paid most of his life. He is 67 and only worked 9 years (Navy), too stupid and lazy to get one more year paying into SS so he could have the 40 quarters required. So the VA picked up the tab for him, giving him a pension and free health care. He did serve 9 years before they bought out his accrued benefits from those 9 years. He got a new truck and a welder out of it, and went home to live with our parents. Slackers like him refuse to participate up front then demand the same benefits as those of us who pay in for 45-50 years.
If we go to single payer, there should be discounts for healthy living and penalties for being stupid.
 
UtahBill said:
You mean something for nothing? That is what it is to many of my own relatives. They are the ones who just take.
I suppose my younger brother has paid in enough by now, thru the tobacco taxes he has paid most of his life. He is 67 and only worked 9 years (Navy), too stupid and lazy to get one more year paying into SS so he could have the 40 quarters required. So the VA picked up the tab for him, giving him a pension and free health care. He did serve 9 years before they bought out his accrued benefits from those 9 years. He got a new truck and a welder out of it, and went home to live with our parents. Slackers like him refuse to participate up front then demand the same benefits as those of us who pay in for 45-50 years.
If we go to single payer, there should be discounts for healthy living and penalties for being stupid.
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Your discount would come in the form of not paying the 20% fee to insurance companies, the same kind of kickbacks the mafia expects. Seriously, single payer is always cheaper for everyone, and if you do lose your job or hours cut, you aren't screwed

Unemployment hasn't been solely about 'lazy and stupid' as you put it for a while. My uncle for instance just got laid off from his mid sized bank in california. He's had a job in finance since finishing college (20+ years), their top earner as well (we used to get free hand me down front row tickets at pro sports), and before that he had worked going back to age 15 to support the family after their dad died young. He was always as responsible as anyone i'd met, but now he's kind of lost as to what to do next and, because he's unemployed, can only get health care thru the ACA
 
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chromium said:
Your discount would come in the form of not paying the 20% fee to insurance companies, the same kind of kickbacks the mafia expects. Seriously, single payer is always cheaper for everyone, and if you do lose your job or hours cut, you aren't screwed

Unemployment hasn't been solely about 'lazy and stupid' as you put it for a while. My uncle for instance just got laid off from his mid sized bank in california. He's had a job in finance since finishing college (20+ years), their top earner as well (we used to get free hand me down front row tickets at pro sports), and before that he had worked going back to age 15 to support the family after their dad died young. He was always as responsible as anyone i'd met, but now he's kind of lost as to what to do next and, because he's unemployed, can only get health care thru the ACA
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I have no problem with owning your own benefits. Workers are better off not being chained to their jobs based on employer "benefits".
 
UtahBill said:
I have no problem with owning your own benefits. Workers are better off not being chained to their jobs based on employer "benefits".
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except it's the only way insurance companies, if not for the ACA, would be willing to insure a man in his 50s without perfect health. That's why single payer too would be a lifeline for such recently laid off people

at some point you have to ask why the entire developed world, except for the ever compassionate christian america, has a health care system such as that
 
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You can make a damn fine living without college regardless of what others say on here.

You don't have to work for the man either.

Find out what you love to do, and get out there and do it.

If a dumb phluck like me can do 6 figures a year, then everyone else on this forum can too.
 
chromium said:
except it's the only way insurance companies, if not for the ACA, would be willing to insure a man in his 50s without perfect health. That's why single payer too would be a lifeline for such recently laid off people

at some point you have to ask why the entire developed world, except for the ever compassionate christian america, has a health care system such as that
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I retired at age 58, needed coverage until I turned 60 when the Retired Reserve benefits kicked in, got catastrophic coverage for dirt cheap based on being a non-smoker, non-drinker, not obese, but with a family history of colon cancer....
 
RetiredUSN said:
You can make a damn fine living without college regardless of what others say on here.

You don't have to work for the man either.

Find out what you love to do, and get out there and do it.

If a dumb phluck like me can do 6 figures a year, then everyone else on this forum can too.
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The wife and I combined made about $140K at the end of our working days. She taught school and I worked tech jobs, for the MAN as you say.....but on 3 occasions the MAN found out that I had options for when they didn't treat me right. Two times was a transfer within the same company, once was a move from one state to another, at a 50% pay raise.
 
UtahBill said:
The wife and I combined made about $140K at the end of our working days. She taught school and I worked tech jobs, for the MAN as you say.....but on 3 occasions the MAN found out that I had options for when they didn't treat me right. Two times was a transfer within the same company, once was a move from one state to another, at a 50% pay raise.
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Good for you.

Some people enjoy the freedom of not working for the man, and setting their own schedules without repercussions. Some people do not need a boss to tell him/her what they are worth. You chose to work for the man by his rules and it seemed to have worked out to your satisfaction.

Now, back on subject. You don't need a college education to very well for yourself.
 
UtahBill said:
I retired at age 58, needed coverage until I turned 60 when the Retired Reserve benefits kicked in, got catastrophic coverage for dirt cheap based on being a non-smoker, non-drinker, not obese, but with a family history of colon cancer....
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are you under the delusion that insurance companies have your interests in mind, compared to a non profit? Do i really need to cite an endless list of insurance atrocities by people *with* coverage, before ACA, those "preexisting conditions", or do you just want the list of thousands upon thousands who were refused the option to buy coverage?
 
a disdain for education is a common theme among the GOP base.
 
chromium said:
are you under the delusion that insurance companies have your interests in mind, compared to a non profit? Do i really need to cite an endless list of insurance atrocities by people *with* coverage, before ACA, those "preexisting conditions", or do you just want the list of thousands upon thousands who were refused the option to buy coverage?
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I have a grandchild with an inoperable brain tumor....first thing the insurance company tried was to say it was a pre-existing condition. That failed, so they tried to claim the treatment was experimental. That failed as well. Took some lawyers to do it, but we won.
So, we have seen it up close. For every person refused coverage and likely ending up on medicaid, there is probably a larger number who never applied thinking that they don't need it right now. I know some of my kin are taking that chance, saying they can't afford it, but they can afford their cigarettes, beer, dining out a lot, etc.
 
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