• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Wisconsin legislation: Teacher wanted-no degree needed

rabbitcaebannog said:
It is my personal philosophy that teachers should be a master in their trade and while a few operate outside the norm, many more need training. I would expect that same philosophy for my dentist, doctor, lawyer and pharmacist.
Click to expand...

Teachers are every bit a Master in their trade as those you mention already...
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
A new proposal hatched in the Wisconsin legislature would provide significantly more flexibility in teacher hiring, allowing districts to on-board potentially even candidates without a college degrees Teaching in Wisconsin Might Not Even Require a College Degree Soon - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Wisconsin may be the first state in the country to certify teachers who don’t have bachelor’s degrees under a provision put in the state budget, a move that has drawn widespread criticism and that Gov. Scott Walker refused to say Thursday whether he supports.
Under the change, anyone with relevant experience could be licensed to teach non-core academic subjects in grades six through 12. They would not need a bachelor’s degree and they could even be a high school dropout.
Anyone with a bachelor’s degree could be licensed to teach in core subjects of English, math, social studies or science.
The decision on whether to hire someone with the alternative certification would be up to the school district, including private schools that accept voucher students and independent charter schools. Wisconsin may be first to license teachers without degree - Washington Times

Slippery slope or not? Some states no longer require teachers to receive teacher certification anymore? In places like Utah that is because of teacher shortages. Is this the way to go?
Click to expand...

This is not good. Teachers should be a college graduste with teacher training and that training should include more psychology and behaviour strategies. That IS the most important aspect of teaching.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
It is my personal philosophy that teachers should be a master in their trade and while a few operate outside the norm, many more need training. I would expect that same philosophy for my dentist, doctor, lawyer and pharmacist.
Click to expand...

Ah. it's my personal philosophy that we should attempt to hire for the job of teaching that person who would be best at the job. We've become obsessed with credentials to the point of losing sight of what they were supposed to indicate.



Full Disclosure: I have two Masters Degrees, and am currently back in school for an Education degree.
 
Fiddytree said:
I'm sympathetic, because, in part, I was largely aligned with a former state superintendent of public instruction in my state who was quite the maverick. At the time, he was staffing his administration with businessmen, those who had business degrees, or those who had varying levels of exposure to secondary and postsecondary education. At the time, the teacher Union (who was beyond in bed with the Democratic Party-the Dem candidate rented his campaign office from the union) had been quite the credential fetishists. The newly-elected Republican superintendent said something to the effect of, "if I think I could learn from them, I'd get someone with a 4th grade education." Much of it was political, but much of it stemmed from what he viewed as "elitism." Of course, I somewhat disagreed, noticing that the unionsfelt the same way about those with superior educations or acclaim in society, but he was somewhat right.

I'm also the son of a former college drop-out who continues to demonstrate superior knowledge of the law and the various systems that kids and parents find themselves in, than the BA/BS and MA/MS crowd. They looked (and sometimes continued) to look down on her for being a "mere parent," but once the powers that be end up siding with her or find a new piece of information from her, that talking point tends to be erroneous.

I, too, grew to understand the limits of "preferred" educational paths for the teaching profession (and the administrative qualifications for those ambitions later), though in many respects now I have a higher level of education than many of them do. The sins of credentialism need to be guarded against.

Nevertheless, education and exposure matters a great deal, sometimes in some educational areas more than others. If not for subject matter competency, then you have to really keep in mind needing someone who can faithfully execute legal requirements of the post, thereby avoiding legal problems stemming from the administration of educational and supervisional programming.
Click to expand...

Precisely. Which is why a measure aimed at non core academic subjects could be efficacious in expanding the teacher pool.
 
cpwill said:
Precisely. Which is why a measure aimed at non core academic subjects could be efficacious in expanding the teacher pool.
Click to expand...

Presuming they can entice otherwise qualified candidates to those posts, then I would be in agreement. I'm a bit skeptical of that, however.
 
cpwill said:
Ah. it's my personal philosophy that we should attempt to hire for the job of teaching that person who would be best at the job. We've become obsessed with credentials to the point of losing sight of what they were supposed to indicate.



Full Disclosure: I have two Masters Degrees, and am currently back in school for an Education degree.
Click to expand...

A third degree, this time in education? Good. Hopefully you won't be as disillusioned as I currently am. Though, I could use another cyber drinking buddy.

In all actuality, a number of states are having difficulty with their credentialism--not just for want of filling the demand of teachers, but also in terms of relevance And quality. In my state, when it develops the stomach for it, I have been hearing rumblings of wanting to substantially revamp both the credentialing agency as well as the teacher preparation programs. I have been drooling at the prospect of aiding in that pursuit, because our candidates are not being well-served once they get in the programs and, depending on the license, are being filled with dubious requirements on one hand, and then a lack of standards on the other.
 
Fiddytree said:
Presuming they can entice otherwise qualified candidates to those posts, then I would be in agreement. I'm a bit skeptical of that, however.
Click to expand...

$$$$$$

Also, don't underestimate the appeal to some of a secondary career. If I could replace my income, or come close, it would be extremely appealing. Once I pay down a house, it doesn't even need to be that much.


A third degree, this time in education? Good. Hopefully you won't be as disillusioned as I currently am. Though, I could use another cyber drinking buddy.
Click to expand...

Well, it's a Bachelors. My wife told me if I went back for another Masters she was leaving me ("Haha! Kidding!" she said through gritted teeth that indicated maybe a little bit of not-kidding). She's going through a lot of the material with me - the intent is for us to get a better grasp on theory so we can apply it to our home-schooling curricula. So I definitely think that there is value to be had in the teaching degree - I just also am a bit jaundiced on the notion that credentials = capability, especially in the Education field.

In all actuality, a number of states are having difficulty with their credentialism--not just for want of filling the demand of teachers, but also in terms of relevance And quality. In my state, when it develops the stomach for it, I have been hearing rumblings of wanting to substantially revamp both the credentialing agency as well as the teacher preparation programs. I have been drooling at the prospect of aiding in that pursuit, because our candidates are not being well-served once they get in the programs and, depending on the license, are being filled with dubious requirements on one hand, and then a lack of standards on the other.
Click to expand...

This is one of those "boring" areas that are of critical importance. It would indeed be fun to get to play a part in revamping - hope you get a chance to. What are you hoping specifically to aim for?
 
Last edited:
cpwill said:
$$$$$$

Also, don't underestimate the appeal to some of a secondary career. If I could replace my income, or come close, it would be extremely appealing. Once I pay down a house, it doesn't even need to be that much.
Click to expand...

Given that Wisconsin is trying to do something quite extraordinary, I retain a bit o skepticism toward it. But much of me is believing that despite some of the allure, the demands on their time and perhaps less than desirable pay will weigh on them.

I'm all for innovative thinking, but I'm nevertheless wary here.

Well, it's a Bachelors. My wife told me if I went back for another Masters she was leaving me ("Haha! Kidding!" she said through gritted teeth that indicated maybe a little bit of not-kidding). She's going through a lot of the material with me - the intent is for us to get a better grasp on theory so we can apply it to our home-schooling curricula. So I definitely think that there is value to be had in the teaching degree - I just also am a bit jaundiced on the notion that credentials = capability, especially in the Education field.
Click to expand...

Your wife definitely would gain from it, which is why I was surprised you were the one to go for it on the front end. I'm of both minds with credentialism, but what will never leave me was the pervasive anti-intellectualism I encountered not just my prep program, but also some of its seeds in both the field as well as its lingering stains up the administrative chain. So, on one hand, you may be looking at it in terms of them being all too much into their credentials, which is true, but I was astonished with the near lobbing of "egghead" insults that were abundant. At the administrative level, they just tend to see my policy orientation and the interaction of education policy on the student as a sot of playful "philosophical" distraction.

This is one of those "boring" areas that are of critical importance. It would indeed be fun to get to play a part in revamping - hope you get a chance to. What are you hoping specifically to aim for?
Click to expand...

Truth be told, I am mostly interested in reforming preparation programs for special educators and general educators when they come into interaction of that field. While I am of the mind that we stretch our social studies teachers too thin (giving them cursory exposure of content in the social sciences so that they can teach 5 courses), I can make the most impact with what teaching candidates are exposed to for special education purposes. Given that general education and special education teachers alike have to interact with the nation's biggest minority, and that requires some specialized knowledge, they need *much* better exposure to content surrounding that group of students. Most colleges require candidates take *one* course on special education students, but it's like a watered-down abnormal psych course. At that rate, I would have preferred that candidates take an actual abnormal psychology course. However, knowing the definitions and criteria of disorders and disabilities can only go so far, given that they can't make such determinations in the first place. There's almost no exposure to teaching methods and classroom management styles that would serve them best in educating this complicated lot. Most educators have little to no exposure in what they are legally required to do for this population, setting them up for failure immediately. Then, don't get me started on revamping curriculum would-be special educators receive.

There's a lot that needs to be changed, but I would be concentrating my efforts in reforming those aspects of education preparation.
 
cpwill said:
:D I understand the claim. I find it hilarious. :D
Click to expand...

Teachers teach people to learn. We can't force a person to know stuff. That is what you, and many, don't understand.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Teachers teach people to learn. We can't force a person to know stuff. That is what you, and many, don't understand.
Click to expand...

Teachers are supposed to teach material in addition to learning strategies. If anything, the efficacy of teaching learning strategies differentiates across age groups, as students move from more structured and less complex to more self-directed, self-regulated learning in more difficult material. I understand that just fine.

I simply find the claim that teachers are the equivalent of (for example) Lawyers or Dentists to be hilarious. Education majors have the lowest SAT scores, and yet they receive the highest GPA's. As a field, it attracts our lower performers who are seeking easy classes followed by job security and retirement benefits. Education as a Major at the Bachelors' level or as a Masters is in no way the intellectual equivalent of either of those professions. FFS, we have problems getting all our teachers to literacy, and we fail at it.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
This is an absolutely horrible idea that will continue to erode our already miserable education standards. We should be investing more into education and increasing teacher salaries and working conditions in order to get higher quality teachers and thus higher quality education. This is a race to the bottom.

To contrast this with Germany, my wife is finishing up her elementary school teaching degree here. It requires about as much schooling as a master's degree and involves very high level studying in two core subjects that she will be teaching, for her English and Sports. After that she has to take numerous certification exams and do 2 years of internship, just to be allowed to teach elementary school. In Germany it's a very difficult degree that not everyone gets accepted into, much less passes. Teaching should be a highly qualified and honorable position like it is in Finland, Germany, and many of the nordic countries.

tl;dr This attracts the bottom of the barrel, laziest, and lowest educated teachers, which will undoubtedly propagate to his or her students. Shame.
Click to expand...

This is a serious problem in the States. Getting a teaching degree here is MUCH easier than it should be. Potential teachers should be thrown into the crucible while in training, because that's exactly what the classroom is.
 
cpwill said:
Education as a Major at the Bachelors' level or as a Masters is in no way the intellectual equivalent of either of those professions. FFS, we have problems getting all our teachers to literacy, and we fail at it.
Click to expand...

Anecdotally, the advanced programs don't seem to offer much beyond potential method improvements and the more than likely self-fulfilling prophecy that it advances your career in the education field. I've long been in a pickle regarding my future doctoral or second masters program. While conversing with a former department head of history at an Ivy League university turned researcher and advocate in a similar field of interest as mine, he reaffirmed my suspicions that advanced degree work in the education research fields may provide a certification, but will unlikely lead to developing one's intellect. I naturally took this to heart, given his activities in guiding state departments of education to alter existing practices. Of course, when I told him of my interests, he reiterated that it wouldn't do much, perhaps including future job prospects, because I had long chosen a different path. Yet, a history PhD or advanced degree in public administration may also be looked upon with suspicion by the educational leaders, despite my focus (let alone other experiences) being nearly entirely transfixed upon bureaucratic concerns of education policy.
 
Last edited:
earthworm said:
And setting us back centuries .. to David Copperfield's time .. and conservatives cannot see this ..
Click to expand...

I don't believe that is necessarily a bad thing. If a person has the knowledge required to pass certification - and is therefore presumed to have the necessary knowledge to teach - what difference does it make whether or not they have a college degree? Granted, you could point to one extreme and say that someone with only surface knowledge could conceivably pass and go on to teach - however I could point out the opposite extreme and note that many of the scientific greats in the history of Western Civilization wouldn't be qualified to teach by today's standards.
 
cpwill said:
Teachers are supposed to teach material in addition to learning strategies. If anything, the efficacy of teaching learning strategies differentiates across age groups, as students move from more structured and less complex to more self-directed, self-regulated learning in more difficult material. I understand that just fine.

I simply find the claim that teachers are the equivalent of (for example) Lawyers or Dentists to be hilarious. Education majors have the lowest SAT scores, and yet they receive the highest GPA's. As a field, it attracts our lower performers who are seeking easy classes followed by job security and retirement benefits. Education as a Major at the Bachelors' level or as a Masters is in no way the intellectual equivalent of either of those professions. FFS, we have problems getting all our teachers to literacy, and we fail at it.
Click to expand...

Prospective teachers who took state teacher licensing exams from 2002 to 2005 scored higher on SATs in high school and earned higher grades in college than their counterparts who took the exams in the mid-1990s, the report said.

The average SAT verbal scores of prospective teachers passing the Praxis tests to teach English, science, social studies, math and art from 2002 to 2005 were higher than those of prospective teachers in the mid-1990s — and were also higher than the average SAT scores for all college graduates, the report said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/education/12teachers.html?_r=2&ref=education&oref=slogin


The percentage of candidates reporting a 3.5 GPA or higher rose from 27% to 40%

Teacher qualifications improve in the past decade - USATODAY.com

The college grades of prospective teachers has also improved. About 40 percent of the prospective teachers taking the licensing tests from 2002 to 2005 had a grade point average of 3.5 or higher on the traditional 4-point scale during college, up from 26 percent in the 1990s, the report said.

“By this measure, we are witnessing a dramatic improvement in the quality of the teacher pool,” the report said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/ed...on&oref=slogin


• Federal Title II reporting rules, which in 1998 required states and teachers' colleges to report Praxis pass rates.

• No Child Left Behind, which in 2002 forced states to expand teacher licensing testing, just as they were setting higher standards, such as minimum GPA requirements, for teacher education candidates.

ETS: Educational Testing Service ? Home

The most important aspect of this all is something that you are still choosing to ignore, for it is the most glaring flaw in your pathetic theory... The Art of Teaching… Teaching is more than simple knowledge in a field. It is balancing kids, emotions and such, along with classroom management skills and curriculum and much more. I know some "experts" in their fields that have admitted that they could never be a successful teacher. They simply don't have the skills to deal with the stress and the skills it takes to run a class and most importantly, the students in it.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
A new proposal hatched in the Wisconsin legislature would provide significantly more flexibility in teacher hiring, allowing districts to on-board potentially even candidates without a college degrees Teaching in Wisconsin Might Not Even Require a College Degree Soon - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Wisconsin may be the first state in the country to certify teachers who don’t have bachelor’s degrees under a provision put in the state budget, a move that has drawn widespread criticism and that Gov. Scott Walker refused to say Thursday whether he supports.
Under the change, anyone with relevant experience could be licensed to teach non-core academic subjects in grades six through 12. They would not need a bachelor’s degree and they could even be a high school dropout.
Anyone with a bachelor’s degree could be licensed to teach in core subjects of English, math, social studies or science.
The decision on whether to hire someone with the alternative certification would be up to the school district, including private schools that accept voucher students and independent charter schools. Wisconsin may be first to license teachers without degree - Washington Times

Slippery slope or not? Some states no longer require teachers to receive teacher certification anymore? In places like Utah that is because of teacher shortages. Is this the way to go?
Click to expand...

Why not? Illinois has allowed substitute teachers w/o degrees for some time. Maybe that's what Wisconsin is wanting to do.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
A new proposal hatched in the Wisconsin legislature would provide significantly more flexibility in teacher hiring, allowing districts to on-board potentially even candidates without a college degrees Teaching in Wisconsin Might Not Even Require a College Degree Soon - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Wisconsin may be the first state in the country to certify teachers who don’t have bachelor’s degrees under a provision put in the state budget, a move that has drawn widespread criticism and that Gov. Scott Walker refused to say Thursday whether he supports.
Under the change, anyone with relevant experience could be licensed to teach non-core academic subjects in grades six through 12. They would not need a bachelor’s degree and they could even be a high school dropout.
Anyone with a bachelor’s degree could be licensed to teach in core subjects of English, math, social studies or science.
The decision on whether to hire someone with the alternative certification would be up to the school district, including private schools that accept voucher students and independent charter schools. Wisconsin may be first to license teachers without degree - Washington Times

Slippery slope or not? Some states no longer require teachers to receive teacher certification anymore? In places like Utah that is because of teacher shortages. Is this the way to go?
Click to expand...

When it says "non-core acedemic" I'm assuming that they're talking about subjects like shop classes, P.E. etc etc? If so then I have no problem with this. You don't need a degree to be able to teach someone how to cut wood and nail it together to make certain shapes. Nor do you need a degree to tell someone to run 10 laps around a gym or climb a rope. :shrug:

Besides, at one point in our history there were lots of teachers that taught even common core subjects like math and reading without having a degree. :shrug: In fact even right now there are lots of people homeschooling their children and they don't have teaching degrees.
 
Kal'Stang said:
When it says "non-core acedemic" I'm assuming that they're talking about subjects like shop classes, P.E. etc etc? If so then I have no problem with this. You don't need a degree to be able to teach someone how to cut wood and nail it together to make certain shapes. Nor do you need a degree to tell someone to run 10 laps around a gym or climb a rope. :shrug:

Besides, at one point in our history there were lots of teachers that taught even common core subjects like math and reading without having a degree. :shrug: In fact even right now there are lots of people homeschooling their children and they don't have teaching degrees.
Click to expand...

Homeschooling your own children is very different than teaching a class of 30 something students with differing needs from very gifted to severely disabled. Non-core subjects encompassed more than shop or PE. It also encompasses foreign language, the arts, and technology.
 
MaggieD said:
Why not? Illinois has allowed substitute teachers w/o degrees for some time. Maybe that's what Wisconsin is wanting to do.
Click to expand...

I believe they want to do it with teachers and not necessarily those who sub from time to time.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
A new proposal hatched in the Wisconsin legislature would provide significantly more flexibility in teacher hiring, allowing districts to on-board potentially even candidates without a college degrees Teaching in Wisconsin Might Not Even Require a College Degree Soon - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Wisconsin may be the first state in the country to certify teachers who don’t have bachelor’s degrees under a provision put in the state budget, a move that has drawn widespread criticism and that Gov. Scott Walker refused to say Thursday whether he supports.
Under the change, anyone with relevant experience could be licensed to teach non-core academic subjects in grades six through 12. They would not need a bachelor’s degree and they could even be a high school dropout.
Anyone with a bachelor’s degree could be licensed to teach in core subjects of English, math, social studies or science.
The decision on whether to hire someone with the alternative certification would be up to the school district, including private schools that accept voucher students and independent charter schools. Wisconsin may be first to license teachers without degree - Washington Times

Slippery slope or not? Some states no longer require teachers to receive teacher certification anymore? In places like Utah that is because of teacher shortages. Is this the way to go?
Click to expand...
depends upon what they're teaching.

in many cases a college degree is not nessecary to educate. for most of our history as a country educators were not college educated,
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Shop class aside. I want teachers to require a Master's degree in their speciality.
Click to expand...

Why? K-12 children are not generally being educated at a masters degree level. one does not need to know calculus to teach arithmetic.
 
Fiddytree said:
Perhaps I was too subtle. When I meant "priority" I meant in terms of adequately funding X educational program or programs. A lot of state legislators or Governors wouldn't have a grand scheme of trying to starve out the education system so as to proliferate the private sector. Most are simply too short-sighted for that, and demonstrate that when you have to remind them, "that requires training" or whatever else they legislate programs requiring moneys.
Click to expand...

ALEC has a lot more push than you may think.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom