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Should the United States adopt an educational model similar to those of Germany?

Should the United States adopt an educational model similar to those of Germany?

  • Yes. We need this ASAP.

    Votes: 4 25.0%

  • Yes, but let's phase this in carefully.

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • We should only borrow elements of the German systems, not the whole thing.

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • No. Our schools need fixing, but this will not work.

    Votes: 9 56.3%

  • No. The educational problems in our schools are significantly overrated.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    16
Harry Guerrilla said:
Because education isn't a jobs training program.
Teaching people to mentally navigate the world is infinitely superior to jobs training.
A mentally astute person, can learn all those things incidentally, because they are mentally astute.

It goes beyond all that though.
I look at what passes as journalism and politics, on one hand I want to weep, on the other, I want to laugh hysterically.
It's not "hurr durr, people ain't voting libertarian," it's people categorically fall for the most fallacious reasoning and appeals to emotion.

I want real progress from mankind and I think the intellectual "ubermensch" is part of the path to said goal.
Jobs training is such a narrow minded and short term goal, imo.
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Not entirely but it should at least be part of it, especially at a university and college level. We need to teach people employable skills, not just intellectual theory. Even if you do teach them all of that they will just forget it if they do use it. Whether you like it or not employment is a major part of society and we need to prepare people for it.
 
laska said:
A great education system imo does both-lay foundation for lifelong learning and job training.
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Carjosse said:
Not entirely but it should at least be part of it, especially at a university and college level. We need to teach people employable skills, not just intellectual theory. Even if you do teach them all of that they will just forget it if they do use it. Whether you like it or not employment is a major part of society and we need to prepare people for it.
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I'm a purist when it comes to this.
I think that a person who receives a highly intellectual education, will have no issue quickly integrating job skills as they go a long.

Part of the problem with "educational job training" is that it spits out overconfident, but vastly ignorant and unskilled workers.
They tend to favor others with similar credentials, which creates a repeating cycle of mediocre, but credentialed employees.

I see this everyday with management, engineers, HR, etc.
They tend to overvalue their credentials and often pass over much more experienced people who have none, but can do it better or at least provide insight to do things right/better.

Not only that,but I've also observed a rather cowardly style of leadership and carelessness with employees, all done to advance their careers over the health of the business in total.
 
Phys251 said:
From about ten years of age, German school students are tracked according to ability, performance, and teacher recommendation. There are several routes, but in general the three main ones are:

1. Hauptschule, which is the lowest-level track. The emphasis in high school is on practical skills, such as hair styling, carpentry, baking (being a baker is a rather respectable job in Germany), etc. Students occasionally go to college from Hauptschulen, but this is uncommon and requires a fairly extensive process to go through first.
2. Realschule, which is the standard-level track. There is also an emphasis on practical skills, but typically these are more advanced in nature, and the academic curriculum is more intense.
3. Gymnasium, which is the highest level and roughly the equivalent of our college prep schools. Building a foundation for college-level studies is the emphasis of Gymnasium. However, not all German students are expected to go to college, which is quite unlike here in the States.

What do you guys think? Would this be a good system for the US to adopt?
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I'm okay with tracks, just as long as the parents get to choose which track their kid goes to.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm a purist when it comes to this.
I think that a person who receives a highly intellectual education, will have no issue quickly integrating job skills as they go a long.

Part of the problem with "educational job training" is that it spits out overconfident, but vastly ignorant and unskilled workers.
They tend to favor others with similar credentials, which creates a repeating cycle of mediocre, but credentialed employees.

I see this everyday with management, engineers, HR, etc.
They tend to overvalue their credentials and often pass over much more experienced people who have none, but can do it better or at least provide insight to do things right/better.

Not only that,but I've also observed a rather cowardly style of leadership and carelessness with employees, all done to advance their careers over the health of the business in total.
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I currently go to a business school and we recently had a conference for my major and several employers were invited. What they said was the exact opposite of you, universities that focus purely on academic theory tend to produce people who are arrogant, over confident, and unskilled. While my university which focuses more on practical training and experience while being lower ranked tends to produce better more skilled and harder working graduates.
 
Winchester said:
I'm okay with tracks, just as long as the parents get to choose which track their kid goes to.
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I would say the children shoudl probably be able to do that with help from the parents and counselors, after all it is their future.
 
Carjosse said:
I would say the children shoudl probably be able to do that with help from the parents and counselors, after all it is their future.
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Input from kids and counselors, decision at least until HS goes to the parent.
 
Carjosse said:
I currently go to a business school and we recently had a conference for my major and several employers were invited. What they said was the exact opposite of you, universities that focus purely on academic theory tend to produce people who are arrogant, over confident, and unskilled. While my university which focuses more on practical training and experience while being lower ranked tends to produce better more skilled and harder working graduates.
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Generally speaking, management tends to be an insulated group.
They promote "yes men" and people with similar credentials.

I don't know much about Canada (in terms of education) though, I could be wrong.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm a purist when it comes to this.
I think that a person who receives a highly intellectual education, will have no issue quickly integrating job skills as they go a long.

Part of the problem with "educational job training" is that it spits out overconfident, but vastly ignorant and unskilled workers.
They tend to favor others with similar credentials, which creates a repeating cycle of mediocre, but credentialed employees.

I see this everyday with management, engineers, HR, etc.
They tend to overvalue their credentials and often pass over much more experienced people who have none, but can do it better or at least provide insight to do things right/better.

Not only that,but I've also observed a rather cowardly style of leadership and carelessness with employees, all done to advance their careers over the health of the business in total.
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It tends to cut both ways. On one hand a traditional liberal education is lacking in practical application or perhaps the even greater sin of not knowing how to be practical. This I agree with those you disagree with.

However, I too see credentialism as a potential weakness. Of course, one could argue that the pursuit of the degrees themselves is a form of it, but a lot of liberal education believers find that a necessary precondition. But I think it is also true that liberal education helps us think better.

In the public sector, a lot of credentialed professionals I run into aren't interested or don't really know how to step back from a problem and analyze its history or its breadth. In the meanwhile they also ignore what someone else has to say because that person does not have the same [or any] credential, despite other useful experience. These professionals could be working within the same or similar field and their work interacts with multiple separately credentialed professionals. It's not uncommon for one group of professionals to view themselves as having primary authority, despite no real evidence backing that up, and intensely stated requirements to collaborate and cooperate with one another.

Credentialism can lead to unexamined beliefs of superiority.
 
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Fiddytree said:
It tends to cut both ways. On one hand a traditional liberal education is lacking in practical application or perhaps the even greater sin of not knowing how to be practical. This I agree with those you disagree with.

However, I too see credentialism as a potential weakness. Of course, one could argue that the pursuit of the degrees themselves is a form of it, but a lot of liberal education believers find that a necessary precondition. But I think it is also true that liberal education helps us think better.

In the public sector, a lot of credentialed professionals I run into aren't interested or don't really know how to step back from a problem and analyze its history or its breadth. In the meanwhile they also ignore what someone else has to say because that person does not have the same [or any] credential, despite other useful experience. These professionals could be working within the same or similar field and their work interacts with multiple separately credentialed professionals. It's not uncommon for one group of professionals to view themselves as having primary authority, despite no real evidence backing that up, and intensely stated requirements to collaborate and cooperate with one another.

Credentialism can lead to unexamined beliefs of superiority.
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A fair assessment I could agree with.
 
Elon Musk has started a school for his kids and some gifted children of SpaceX employees called Ad Astra which means "To the stars". It incorporates some of the same principles of my education model given earlier in thread where students follow their talents and interests whether music, art, engineering, etc, and work at their own pace without structured grade system. Under my voucher and free choice system, injecting liberty and freedom into K-12 system, Americanizing it, I could see Musk franchising Ad Astra throughout the nation being among a myriad of choices for students/parents to choose from.

Elon Musk creates a grade school - Business Insider
 
Phys251 said:
From about ten years of age, German school students are tracked according to ability, performance, and teacher recommendation. There are several routes, but in general the three main ones are:

1. Hauptschule, which is the lowest-level track. The emphasis in high school is on practical skills, such as hair styling, carpentry, baking (being a baker is a rather respectable job in Germany), etc. Students occasionally go to college from Hauptschulen, but this is uncommon and requires a fairly extensive process to go through first.
2. Realschule, which is the standard-level track. There is also an emphasis on practical skills, but typically these are more advanced in nature, and the academic curriculum is more intense.
3. Gymnasium, which is the highest level and roughly the equivalent of our college prep schools. Building a foundation for college-level studies is the emphasis of Gymnasium. However, not all German students are expected to go to college, which is quite unlike here in the States.

What do you guys think? Would this be a good system for the US to adopt?
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wait I thought liberals were all for education for everyone?
do you realize that the European style of education weeds out students?

it means those poor kids that liberals are always ranting about needing a better education actually get less of one.
as they won't make the grades to get into college at all.
 
ludin said:
wait I thought liberals were all for education for everyone?
do you realize that the European style of education weeds out students?

it means those poor kids that liberals are always ranting about needing a better education actually get less of one.
as they won't make the grades to get into college at all.
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I think many undervalue vocational training. Many enjoy things like welding, carpentry, working on cars, ect, to reading Shakespeare and philosophizing (is that a word) on pi. As a liberty loving Americun I don't like any kind of forced academic route, but having a broad area of studies for students including excellent tech and vocational training is good imo.
 
It is not the educational system which holds back the majority of Americans from finding well-paid jobs but the grip corporations and the moneyed class have on the political system.
 
laska said:
I think many undervalue vocational training. Many enjoy things like welding, carpentry, working on cars, ect, to reading Shakespeare and philosophizing (is that a word) on pi. As a liberty loving Americun I don't like any kind of forced academic route, but having a broad area of studies for students including excellent tech and vocational training is good imo.
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yep those are good jobs and people that are good at those things tend to lean in that direction anyway.

however that is not how Germany works. kids take a series of placement tests unless they pass they do not continue their education.
many kids that could do better things later on don't get the chance.

the only people that get into the good universities are the top 5%-10% of students.
everyone else just to bad.

I hated high school. in fact I despised it. in fact I didn't even like college the first time around.
so I did what I had to in order to get by, however when I went back to college to get my 4 year
I was more motivated. I ended up getting deans list several times and made the national honor society.

in Germany I never would have had that chance.
 
ludin said:
yep those are good jobs and people that are good at those things tend to lean in that direction anyway.

however that is not how Germany works. kids take a series of placement tests unless they pass they do not continue their education.
many kids that could do better things later on don't get the chance.

the only people that get into the good universities are the top 5%-10% of students.
everyone else just to bad.

I hated high school. in fact I despised it. in fact I didn't even like college the first time around.
so I did what I had to in order to get by, however when I went back to college to get my 4 year
I was more motivated. I ended up getting deans list several times and made the national honor society.

in Germany I never would have had that chance.
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We agree, which is a little unusual. The barriers and lack of freedom in the German system Is a negative for me although I like other principles of their system.
 
laska said:
We agree, which is a little unusual. The barriers and lack of freedom in the German system Is a negative for me although I like other principles of their system.
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all of Europe is that way. i just got back from Poland and my PM was shocked that everyone in the US could go to college.
their you can only go to the public university if you score high enough on the test. yes it is paid for but you only have so long to
actually get a degree and you can only change majors if so many of your classes are aligned with the other degree you want.

if you don't make it then you can go but you have to go to a private university and it costs a good bit of money and you have to
pay for it yourself.
 
The beauty of the virtual university on steroids and amazing courses to download for the price of an i-tune is that it gives world class education and jobtraining to anyone, from an out of work 30 yr old who was unmotivated during high school but who is now motivated to a kid in an African village with internet access. It abolishes the ivory tower wall.
 
ludin said:
all of Europe is that way. i just got back from Poland and my PM was shocked that everyone in the US could go to college.
their you can only go to the public university if you score high enough on the test. yes it is paid for but you only have so long to
actually get a degree and you can only change majors if so many of your classes are aligned with the other degree you want.

if you don't make it then you can go but you have to go to a private university and it costs a good bit of money and you have to
pay for it yourself.
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We sort of do that in subsidizing talented students with scholarships. These students have to show ability and talent to receive these subsidized scholarships. Even non scholarshiped students have to be accepted into universities. So we have some similarities. The virtual university on steroids that I imagine would shake things up.
 
If you subsidize all of higher education you would have to have standards or else the taxpayers would be paying a ton of money on students who are bad fits for the education and so money wasted. In the American system where many pay their own way, it solves this problem on its own as most are not going to waste money on bad fits.
 
On higher education, I personally think something like 90% of it can be accomplished magnitudes of order better in qulaity with the virtual university on steroids at a tiny fraction of cost. May cause many of the brick and mortar universities to close or become smaller but it would greatly benefit overall society even if we have many professors and adminastrators going postal to go with all the other terrorists. Woohoo!
 
ludin said:
wait I thought liberals were all for education for everyone?
do you realize that the European style of education weeds out students?

it means those poor kids that liberals are always ranting about needing a better education actually get less of one.
as they won't make the grades to get into college at all.
Click to expand...

Notice that I have my political lean listed as Slightly Liberal. ;) My stances on education and child-rearing, which I believe are near the middle of the road, are a part of why I did so.
 
ludin said:
wait I thought liberals were all for education for everyone?
do you realize that the European style of education weeds out students?

it means those poor kids that liberals are always ranting about needing a better education actually get less of one.
as they won't make the grades to get into college at all.
Click to expand...

It does not weed out students, it gives them an education best suited to their skills.
 
Carjosse said:
It does not weed out students, it gives them an education best suited to their skills.
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how do you know? do you know how well a 10 year old is going to do 10 years later? you don't.
so why would you just basically throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I find that to be a bad idea. pigeon holing kids that could have better potential later on.
of course this is the elitist attitude I expect from liberals.
 
ludin said:
how do you know? do you know how well a 10 year old is going to do 10 years later? you don't.
so why would you just basically throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I find that to be a bad idea. pigeon holing kids that could have better potential later on.
of course this is the elitist attitude I expect from liberals.
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You can move between them, it is not a permanent choice. The alternative is teach everyone the same, to the detriment of everyone.
 
I do feel like germany is better at testing each student to their individual needs better than the US which is proposing the common core. The only thing I don't like is that homeschooling is banned
 
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