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The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

Boo Radley said:
Model? That's intersting. I would love to hear more.
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If only I HAD more. Ha! Seriously, I don't claim to have many answers, but I know what we're doing is just more of the same. And I know we need to try some controversial methods to effect change. I think quickly of The Jesse White Tumblers. Jesse White is Illinois' Secretary of State. The Jesse White Tumblers program has been in existence since 1959. Being a member means you're carrying a C or better average. Kids are lining up to get in. It's the recognition...the accolades from their myriad of public performances all over the world. It's funded by donations, with large corporations carrying the brunt of the load. The kids get college scholarships for "X" participation. If there's a program as successful, well, I'd like to know about it. And yet. There should be thirty programs or more just like it, yes? Why aren't there? How about one for drama? One for would-be rappers? And....

How about the military. Surely there are heroes there. Can't think of a better role model for these guys and gals. I asked a man who, at the time, worked for Union Carbide why he went into the service as a young man. He said, "I knew that if I didn't get out of the neighborhood, I'd be dead or in jail in five years.

I guess my point is we've got to try different things, 'cause what we're doin' ain't workin'. Pay 'em for A's, B's, C's. Pay the D student a bonus to bring his grade up to a C. Pay 'em now and help them become productive members of society....or pay them the rest of their lives.

I completely appreciate what you're saying about teachers being judged by grades. But, if we switch the paradigm and judge them by their successes....well, they are far and few between. Maybe we should judge them by their ideas -- and maybe the administration and the teachers unions should get out of the way and give them autonomy in the classroom.
 
MaggieD said:
If only I HAD more. Ha! Seriously, I don't claim to have many answers, but I know what we're doing is just more of the same. And I know we need to try some controversial methods to effect change. I think quickly of The Jesse White Tumblers. Jesse White is Illinois' Secretary of State. The Jesse White Tumblers program has been in existence since 1959. Being a member means you're carrying a C or better average. Kids are lining up to get in. It's the recognition...the accolades from their myriad of public performances all over the world. It's funded by donations, with large corporations carrying the brunt of the load. The kids get college scholarships for "X" participation. If there's a program as successful, well, I'd like to know about it. And yet. There should be thirty programs or more just like it, yes? Why aren't there? How about one for drama? One for would-be rappers? And....

How about the military. Surely there are heroes there. Can't think of a better role model for these guys and gals. I asked a man who, at the time, worked for Union Carbide why he went into the service as a young man. He said, "I knew that if I didn't get out of the neighborhood, I'd be dead or in jail in five years.

I guess my point is we've got to try different things, 'cause what we're doin' ain't workin'. Pay 'em for A's, B's, C's. Pay the D student a bonus to bring his grade up to a C. Pay 'em now and help them become productive members of society....or pay them the rest of their lives.

I completely appreciate what you're saying about teachers being judged by grades. But, if we switch the paradigm and judge them by their successes....well, they are far and few between. Maybe we should judge them by their ideas -- and maybe the administration and the teachers unions should get out of the way and give them autonomy in the classroom.
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Fair enough. I will say this:

Things are not as bad as many make it out to be. I work with students all then time, from many diffeent places in the country, and largely they are getting a good education. The rethoric is worse than the situation actually is. The problems are more societal than educational.

As for role models, and I speak as an inner city kid who joined the service for the same reasons you related, the kid has to buy into that option. Some do not. Not saying it is right, only that some don't. Finding someone to connect to anyone is rather hit and miss, and often it is someone we never thought of. But I do agree with the effort.

I would only like for reform to be more thoughtful. Less dogmatic, and less aimed at villianizing someone. Teacher for the most part are willing to tackle reform and accept responsibility. They just want it over things they can control.
 
MaggieD said:
Then bring the role models to the school. I'm going to focus on blacks here, without prejudice. Are there no successful black businessmen and women? Are there no personal success stories? Of course there are! Monthly assemblies. Get some of them involved in personal coaching. Ask them to "give back." Look at Judge Greg Mathis. Talk about a role model. He's one of countless others. Find them. Get them involved!

Notice I'm leaving the teachers out of the loop. Teachers alone can't do it. But they can clamor for the change that'll work.


And, as I said earlier, let's look at ways to motivate these kids to want to learn. I don't care if they get a pair of Air Jordans for a B. Find a way.
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You can't just bring in role models though. It doesn't work that way. A role model isn't around for a day or a week. It just isn't really feasable. Plus the "success" stories aren't realistic for most kids. What they need to see is someone who lived in a place like them that didn't turn to crime. It has to be CONSTANT exposure to people day to day. And also...not every community will have those pillars willing to help out. But if a community has kids interact with their teachers and coaches and even the school resource officer...it could be a huge help. That is another thing...police need to take a better standing with kids at a young age so that they can build a positive face with the community. All too often it ends up looking like the bad guys. That is another discussion though.
 
Speaking of "models" there was an interesting article in the NYT Sunday Magazine section about a school that teaches "character". It emphasizes, and incorporates into lessons, character issues like curiousity, determination, creativity, etc
 
SheWolf said:
teaching is not all about test scores. No child left behind is all testing and scoring, but I have never met a teacher who thinks that's a good policy. Teachers are strictly teaching kids how to pass tests now, which isn't really the same as learning or even encouraging well rounded curriculum. Testing doesn't teach kids critical thinking or research skills, nor does it help children realize their strengths. As long as a kid does good enough on a test, that's ok and acceptable now.
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It's true, to some people it's not about test scores or performance, to others it is. How do you solve that with a public education system? A vote hardly seems appropriate, why would 49% of the people have to pay for a system that doesn't meet their needs? For example, I would think many parents involved in their childs education, actually evaluate schools based on...performance.
Newsweek's Annual List: The Best High Schools in America - The Daily Beast

You go for the low performing schools? Given a choice all else similar, you want the school that has half the AP pass rate of students?

After all, children themselves are measured on what SheWolf? Performance? As a matter of fact, yes. Test grades are a big part of that (!). Are there penalties if they do bad? Yes, they may have to repeat a grade, the long-term career implications, the stigma, etc. For private schools, the additional tuition/money the parents would need to pay (if they aren't kicked out). It's good enough for private sector, it's good enough for students, but it's not good enough for teachers? What do teachers want?

How Should Teachers Be Evaluated? Let’s Ask Teachers : NEA Today
“If the intent is to help a teacher improve, I believe that most teachers would welcome it,” said Philip Jack, an instructor at Green River Community College in Washington. “If the intent is to ‘fire bad teachers’ or determine funding, anyone would feel angst.
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So teachers don't want to risk their job if they perform bad!? Doesn't the risk of losing a job, help some people (not everyone) to step-it-up? Why do we have private sector making less, but having more risk? Is that fair to taxpayers who are basically paying extra so that Philip Jack doesn't "feel angst"? I think most non-public workers, with their jobs ALWAYS at risk, would find that absurd. I do.
 
Mach said:
It's true, to some people it's not about test scores or performance, to others it is. How do you solve that with a public education system? A vote hardly seems appropriate, why would 49% of the people have to pay for a system that doesn't meet their needs?
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Most parents are happy with the education of their own children. It's the overblown hysteria about "failing schools" that has everyone in a lather, even though only a small percentage of all schools are doing a poor job.
 
Mach said:
So teachers don't want to risk their job if they perform bad!? Doesn't the risk of losing a job, help some people (not everyone) to step-it-up? Why do we have private sector making less, but having more risk? Is that fair to taxpayers who are basically paying extra so that Philip Jack doesn't "feel angst"? I think most non-public workers, with their jobs ALWAYS at risk, would find that absurd. I do.
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Let me phrase it another way, if you want to help students and improve teaching, step and we'll work together. if you want to go on a witch hunt, we'll pass.

Isn't the point to improve the teaching? Firing should be reserved for when it is necessary and not the first step.
 
stonewall50 said:
You can't just bring in role models though. It doesn't work that way. A role model isn't around for a day or a week. It just isn't really feasable. Plus the "success" stories aren't realistic for most kids. What they need to see is someone who lived in a place like them that didn't turn to crime. It has to be CONSTANT exposure to people day to day. And also...not every community will have those pillars willing to help out. But if a community has kids interact with their teachers and coaches and even the school resource officer...it could be a huge help. That is another thing...police need to take a better standing with kids at a young age so that they can build a positive face with the community. All too often it ends up looking like the bad guys. That is another discussion though.
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Respectfully, I disagree. You get a Navy Seal in front of these kids and watch their eyes open wide. I believe it. I'd like to see it tried. But there are those who, like you respectfully, say, "Nah, that won't work." Constant exposure is certainly the best of all worlds; but, for heaven's sake, the Judge Mathis's of this world...the Navy Seals...the rappers...the sports figures...doctors....lawyers....business owners...the Jesse White's --the Barrack Obama's, for God's sake...all of these people can offer hope. To dismiss this tack as useless is what's held us in the same-old-same-old year after year -- generation after generation.
 
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MaggieD said:
Respectfully, I disagree. You get a Navy Seal in front of these kids and watch their eyes open wide. I believe it. I'd like to see it tried. But there are those who, like you respectfully, say, "Nah, that won't work." Constant exposure is certainly the best of all worlds; but, for heaven's sake, the Judge Mathis's of this world...the Navy Seals...the rappers...the sports figures...doctors....lawyers....business owners...the Jesse White's --the Barrack Obama's, for God's sake...all of these people can offer hope. To dismiss this tack as useless is what's held us in the same-old-same-old year after year -- generation after generation.
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How many Navy Seals are willing to make standing in a classroom a fulltime job?
 
sangha said:
How many Navy Seals are willing to make standing in a classroom a fulltime job?
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She didn't say as a full time job did she? Straw man you liar. lol.
 
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MaggieD said:
Respectfully, I disagree. You get a Navy Seal in front of these kids and watch their eyes open wide. I believe it. I'd like to see it tried. But there are those who, like you respectfully, say, "Nah, that won't work." Constant exposure is certainly the best of all worlds; but, for heaven's sake, the Judge Mathis's of this world...the Navy Seals...the rappers...the sports figures...doctors....lawyers....business owners...the Jesse White's --the Barrack Obama's, for God's sake...all of these people can offer hope. To dismiss this tack as useless is what's held us in the same-old-same-old year after year -- generation after generation.
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I'm not saying that standing people up in front of kids is a bad idea. I am sorry that came out wrong I guess. I am saying it isn't the best sollution. We do in many places stand people in front of kids. I know they do it all the time in my area(which is an at risk area). The problem is that of the teachers at the worst school...maybe 3 of them are male? And then there are coaches, but that is another discussion. In terms of OUR discussion we do need many Black Male teachers, but for now we can deal with more MALE teachers for at risk young men. I hope that doesn't seem sexist? It certainly did when I wrote it.
 
from Mach

It's true, to some people it's not about test scores or performance, to others it is. How do you solve that with a public education system? A vote hardly seems appropriate, why would 49% of the people have to pay for a system that doesn't meet their needs? For example, I would think many parents involved in their childs education, actually evaluate schools based on...performance.
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What is it you are asking here? How do you solve what exactly with a public education system? The perception that test scores are the be all and end all with education? Is that what you are asking?

You are being disingenuous when you claim that 49% of the people are not having their needs met by public education. What do you base this on? What needs are you referring to? Where do you get your data?

from Mach again on evaluating teachers

So teachers don't want to risk their job if they perform bad!? Doesn't the risk of losing a job, help some people (not everyone) to step-it-up? Why do we have private sector making less, but having more risk? Is that fair to taxpayers who are basically paying extra so that Philip Jack doesn't "feel angst"? I think most non-public workers, with their jobs ALWAYS at risk, would find that absurd. I do.
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You are operating from a false premise. A teachers job is always at risk and they can be fired for proper cause. The article you led in with clearly discusses proper ways to evaluate a teacher so that several goals can me met including improving a teachers performance, developing skills, making them more effective in the classroom as well as weeding out the ones who should not be there.

I wonder why you have opted to focus only on the last item?
 
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stonewall50 said:
I'm not saying that standing people up in front of kids is a bad idea. I am sorry that came out wrong I guess. I am saying it isn't the best sollution. We do in many places stand people in front of kids. I know they do it all the time in my area(which is an at risk area). The problem is that of the teachers at the worst school...maybe 3 of them are male? And then there are coaches, but that is another discussion. In terms of OUR discussion we do need many Black Male teachers, but for now we can deal with more MALE teachers for at risk young men. I hope that doesn't seem sexist? It certainly did when I wrote it.
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I think that just about half of our staff is male... along with a couple of really manly looking females...
 
Bodhisattva said:
I think that just about half of our staff is male... along with a couple of really manly looking females...
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Is your school considered an at risk school? And what age range? Sadly if you are above elementary you are PROBABLY too late if you are an at risk school. From my own personal county I can say that they start recruiting kids for gangs in elementary school. They get them to be lookouts and pay for their bikes and things like that. There is actually a system of kids looking up to these guys that do all kinds of cool things for them...but these guys are all gang affilliated and they get these kids involved too. Sadly we are playing catch up in terms of hook em early. Al Capone was in a gang at 14. Sadly now they recruit kids at age 10.
 
sangha said:
How many Navy Seals are willing to make standing in a classroom a fulltime job?
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What exactly don't you understand about special assemblies? Motivational speaking?
 
stonewall50 said:
I'm not saying that standing people up in front of kids is a bad idea. I am sorry that came out wrong I guess. I am saying it isn't the best sollution. We do in many places stand people in front of kids. I know they do it all the time in my area(which is an at risk area). The problem is that of the teachers at the worst school...maybe 3 of them are male? And then there are coaches, but that is another discussion. In terms of OUR discussion we do need many Black Male teachers, but for now we can deal with more MALE teachers for at risk young men. I hope that doesn't seem sexist? It certainly did when I wrote it.
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Ah, I see. You're right, it's not the best solution. But it's a step in the right direction. As for black male teachers, why not special recruitment programs? Why not free college educations for those black males who show promise in grade school? Why not bonuses to black males who teach four years in the inner city? Whatever it takes. Doesn't sound politically correct? Well, neither is unleashing whole generations of young people into the grown-up world without an ounce of hope. We've got to start thinking out of the box.
 
MaggieD said:
What exactly don't you understand about special assemblies? Motivational speaking?
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I'll tell you what I do understand about special assemblies...most kids see them as time to fool around with their friends.

Failing kids need more than a motivational speech. They need hands-on intervention. They need to have the skills they need to succeed drilled into their heads on a daily basis.
 
sangha said:
I'll tell you what I do understand about special assemblies...most kids see them as time to fool around with their friends.

Failing kids need more than a motivational speech. They need hands-on intervention. They need to have the skills they need to succeed drilled into their heads on a daily basis.
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I will say this, while I'm not sure I would do it at an assembly, as sales job of sorts is often needed. If a student doesn't buy into what the teacher is selling, the battle is lost ebfore it begins.
 
MaggieD said:
Ah, I see. You're right, it's not the best solution. But it's a step in the right direction. As for black male teachers, why not special recruitment programs? Why not free college educations for those black males who show promise in grade school? Why not bonuses to black males who teach four years in the inner city? Whatever it takes. Doesn't sound politically correct? Well, neither is unleashing whole generations of young people into the grown-up world without an ounce of hope. We've got to start thinking out of the box.
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Oh don't worry. If anyone is unconcerned with political correctness...it would be me. I like the expression political correctness "tyranny with a happy face." I think that was Charleton Heston.

The problem I do see with the theory is more along the lines of how much do you actually have to pay these guys to teach in these places? They are HELL. Not many people want to teach there. They don't pay well and they don't keep them long either. This is basically the reason why it would be nice to get a community involved in school, but the fact is that the REAL issue behind an education problem in terms of gang violence is poverty. At least that is how I view it.
 
MaggieD said:
Ah, I see. You're right, it's not the best solution. But it's a step in the right direction. As for black male teachers, why not special recruitment programs? Why not free college educations for those black males who show promise in grade school? Why not bonuses to black males who teach four years in the inner city? Whatever it takes. Doesn't sound politically correct? Well, neither is unleashing whole generations of young people into the grown-up world without an ounce of hope. We've got to start thinking out of the box.
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Affirmative action, does not work. Free education for blacks that show promise, why not free education for anyone that shows promise. Why not make college free for all? As far as bonuses they already do that, in all areas where it is hard to get teachers to teach their pay is raised to attract teachers.

As for educating our kids wherever they are starts with the parents.
 
Born Free said:
Affirmative action, does not work. Free education for blacks that show promise, why not free education for anyone that shows promise. Why not make college free for all? As far as bonuses they already do that, in all areas where it is hard to get teachers to teach their pay is raised to attract teachers.

As for educating our kids wherever they are starts with the parents.
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In an odd way, your post makes sense
 
sangha said:
In an odd way, your post makes sense
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That is because Affirmative Action in its base form IS not only descrimination, but hinders the ability of the best to rise to the top because of quota because AA only applies in a vaccum.
 
Born Free said:
Affirmative action, does not work. Free education for blacks that show promise, why not free education for anyone that shows promise. Why not make college free for all? As far as bonuses they already do that, in all areas where it is hard to get teachers to teach their pay is raised to attract teachers.

As for educating our kids wherever they are starts with the parents.
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This isn't AA though. This is a discussion of role models for inner city minority children. Does a kid look up to a Small framed, rich, white, college girl? Maybe if it is another female. But does an inner city minority at risk male look up to this woman? Or would he identitfy with someone his same race that has made it out?
 
MaggieD said:
Ah, I see. You're right, it's not the best solution. But it's a step in the right direction. As for black male teachers, why not special recruitment programs? Why not free college educations for those black males who show promise in grade school? Why not bonuses to black males who teach four years in the inner city? Whatever it takes. Doesn't sound politically correct? Well, neither is unleashing whole generations of young people into the grown-up world without an ounce of hope. We've got to start thinking out of the box.
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The Detroit Public School did have programs like the ones you describe Maggie. What they found out is that those who took the bait, rarely stayed on the hook. In other words, they got the college paid for, stayed the minimum time necessary, then split in much higher numbers than the average teacher.
 
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