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Coronavirus Economy will bring Inflation

cpwill

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Claim:

If you think too much money creation causes inflation, we will get inflation. If you think budget deficits cause inflation, we will get inflation. If you are old-fashioned enough to think that rising costs and increasing economic inefficiency cause inflation, we will get inflation. It really doesn’t matter which economic theory you subscribe to, they all arrive at the same destination — more inflation.

...“Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output,” said Milton Friedman in 1970... For the ten years before the coronavirus, Friedman’s central principle did not work; we should have had about 4 to 5 percent inflation rather than the 2 percent we actually got. Since February, it’s a different story, however. In the six weeks to April 6, M2 money supply has increased by 7.7 percent, an annual compounded rate of 90.4 percent....

Maynard Keynes would tell you that this is all good, and Keynesians appear to be running our lives right now. [But] That’s not what we have here. There are not long lines of pathetic, 1930s unemployed fathers of families laid off by the Great Depression, who can easily be put to work. Here we have around 20 million people who have been forcibly prevented from working by the government and the coronavirus. At least in the short term, there is no way to put them back to work and make them productive. The output they would have produced is lost forever; a restaurant meal not served in April cannot be served in August. Hence the extra money inserted into the economy has no goods to buy. That is the position we had in World War II — “too much money chasing too few goods.” It caused inflation...

Okay, take away the monetary and the fiscal arguments... If you think of the world economy as a gigantic machine, it will no longer be operating smoothly; horrible grinding noises will emit from its innards, and smoke will billow everywhere. Inevitably, that will cause increased costs; it has to. Then there are the costs of shortening the global supply chains and perhaps re-domesticating some production. Entirely without economic theory, simply from observing how the world economy will operate for the rest of 2020 and probably 2021, you come to an inevitable conclusion: There will be inflation....


Inflation would have a positive effect on government debt, but.... rising interest rates on that debt as a result get pretty ugly pretty fast, as I recall. It would also be somewhat disastrous for our Boomers as they head into retirement.
 
To me this is down on the priority list of immediate concerns, and/or an acceptable risk, considering it's fiscal and can be overcome with some time and a glorious return to work. I doubt anyone can quantify this to any great statistical certainty...it's something to watch, but I don't see any great concern compared to CV19 personally.

That written, I think it's hard to predict what an economy will do...it's not a machine that either operates smoothly or doesn't. It's dynamic, and it responds to the market. If workers cannot go physically t easily today, then people are looking for ways to resume business without that. Or to isolate workers. Many stores have gone fully online they were most in person before. Other business has boomed. I don't think we can turn on a dime..I mean, 8-18 months might be too short of a time to do all that much...but I don't know. I recall we had no real military, but during WWII we became a world powerhouse, transforming our economy back in the old days into something none had considered.

Can we do the same here? Or are we just gonna have half the nation only focused on a return to the past, rather than navigating a way forward. Time will tell.
 
The ultra low price of oil is going to help.

Heating oil, fuel for cars, plastics, oil is everywhere.
 

It is really hard to predict things like that. It is certainly a possibility, but I don't think I would call it a probability. The ballooning deficit of the last couple years can and will have some significant negative effects in conjunction with the virus bailouts and likely GDP shrinking however, and we should be concerned. We have to fix how we do things going forward, as the current model is quite possibly going to blow up in our faces, and the usual methods of handling things like a recession are less politically viable, and less effective(eg diminishing returns on tax cuts). My biggest worry is that what we normally do to get out of a recession(cutting taxes and infrastructure spending) will be less effective and less possible to do politically, resulting in an extended time with negative GDP growth. Again, probably not a probability, but certainly a possibility.

How you been doing cp? You and your family staying healthy I hope.
 
Economic sanity is always down list for liberals.

Do you have anything to add on the topic other than juvenile namecalling?
 
Economic sanity is always down list for liberals.

You constantly omit (deny?) that 100% of republicants in congress are voting for this massive federal deficit spending and money printing (creating?).
 
We'd have been in a hell of a lot better position to deal with this without Bush and Trump's tax handouts for the richest. Could easily drop a cool 10 trillion on it. Instead we've got to flail around, risking inflation among any number of things. Without the Bush deregulation, the mortgage bubble would not have gotten anywhere near as big as it was, and any recession from its bursting would have been far smaller. Without the pointless Iraq war based on WMDs that never existed, we'd be even further ahead.

Thanks, people who vote for the GOP (note: your stated principles are irrelevant. All that matters is the practical effect of your voting history).
 
You constantly omit (deny?) that 100% of republicants in congress are voting for this massive federal deficit spending and money printing (creating?).

It seems we don't have a lot of choice right now. Do you think it's more or less down on the list of their concerns? Sounds like in general liberals take these kinds of things way less seriously.
 
What name did I call and at whom?

You didn't call liberals "economically insane"?

Then what explains this:

Economic sanity is always down list for liberals.

Involuntary spasm that improbably resulted in a complete sentence, if a stupid and dishonest one. You - the fake "small government" conservatives - are the ones who had us borrowing over a trillion a year in what you told us was the best economy ever. And now look where we are.

Thanks, GOP voters. Thanks a whole lot.
 
It seems we don't have a lot of choice right now. Do you think it's more or less down on the list of their concerns? Sounds like in general liberals take these kinds of things way less seriously.

More nonsense from you. How was it wrong for liberals to have done that which you now assert had little (no?) alternative?
 
More nonsense from you. How was it wrong for liberals to have done that which you now assert had little (no?) alternative?

I think you're failing to understand what I'm saying. Attempt reading it 15 or 20 more times.
 
I think you're failing to understand what I'm saying. Attempt reading it 15 or 20 more times.

I completely understand what you are saying: when liberals (demorats?) do (or vote for) the same thing that conservatives (republicants?) do (or vote for) that only the liberals have done something wrong.
 
It is really hard to predict things like that. It is certainly a possibility, but I don't think I would call it a probability. The ballooning deficit of the last couple years can and will have some significant negative effects in conjunction with the virus bailouts and likely GDP shrinking however, and we should be concerned. We have to fix how we do things going forward, as the current model is quite possibly going to blow up in our faces, and the usual methods of handling things like a recession are less politically viable, and less effective(eg diminishing returns on tax cuts). My biggest worry is that what we normally do to get out of a recession(cutting taxes and infrastructure spending) will be less effective and less possible to do politically, resulting in an extended time with negative GDP growth. Again, probably not a probability, but certainly a possibility.

I don't think we usually get the kinds of multipliers out of infrastructure builds that their proponents claim - I've noticed they tend to leave out what the same money would have otherwise been doing when they run those projections. Actual infrastructure-driven multipliers tend to be infrastructure of the annual, boring, regular-upkeep kind.

I'm still chewing on the OP link, tbh.

I think that the whole "well supply chains will become deliberately less efficient in order to be more secure" is.... well, it sounds like something we are all saying now, but that won't be pursued once we get there. Competition is a bear, and it is merciless in forcing providers to find the best way to get the best products to the consumer in the most convenient way at the lowest cost. It's hard to see the world turning its back on just-in-time logistics or a global supply chain. I think that the shutdowns themselves will force some price hikes in the short term (I'm already seeing some at the local grocery store), but am uncertain about its long-term effect.

But we've been buffing up the monetary supply for a while now. Hard to see how that doesn't, eventually, come back to haunt. Between that, the way our debt payments skyrocket if interest rates go back to historic norms, and our built-in Entitlement shortfalls.... My biggest worry is that one problem triggers another, which triggers another, leading each to be more damaging in concert than any would be separately. :-/

And, dammit, here I am trying to save up cash to buy and build on land (I've decided I like individuals, but not being surrounded by people). Simma down now and hold off on that inflation for about 36 months, willya folks? :p

How you been doing cp? You and your family staying healthy I hope.

So far :) This whole thing has been mandated vacation for me, as everyone is healthy and I still have a job. Makes me worried about becoming blase about it, tbh; we have friends who are now unemployed, who are potentially about to lose their house, etc.. It's easier for me to shrug this off as "well, something we just all have to go through" than it is for them :(. The family is actually headed down to your state today. How are you and yours doing with opening-ish back up?
 
I don't think we usually get the kinds of multipliers out of infrastructure builds that their proponents claim - I've noticed they tend to leave out what the same money would have otherwise been doing when they run those projections. Actual infrastructure-driven multipliers tend to be infrastructure of the annual, boring, regular-upkeep kind.

Mostly that money is simply manufactured, more debt vs taking it from somewhere else. I will grant the multiplier is at least in part based on best guesses. I do think that spending does have a higher multiplier over tax cuts, but by how much is a guess. What we need to learn to do is save things that stimulate the economy for when there is an actual recession and it is needed, because, like with most things, there are limits to what can be done. Once taxes are low, and debt above a certain point, you really do not have much options to artificially boost the economy.

I'm still chewing on the OP link, tbh.

I think that the whole "well supply chains will become deliberately less efficient in order to be more secure" is.... well, it sounds like something we are all saying now, but that won't be pursued once we get there. Competition is a bear, and it is merciless in forcing providers to find the best way to get the best products to the consumer in the most convenient way at the lowest cost. It's hard to see the world turning its back on just-in-time logistics or a global supply chain. I think that the shutdowns themselves will force some price hikes in the short term (I'm already seeing some at the local grocery store), but am uncertain about its long-term effect.

But we've been buffing up the monetary supply for a while now. Hard to see how that doesn't, eventually, come back to haunt. Between that, the way our debt payments skyrocket if interest rates go back to historic norms, and our built-in Entitlement shortfalls.... My biggest worry is that one problem triggers another, which triggers another, leading each to be more damaging in concert than any would be separately. :-/

And, dammit, here I am trying to save up cash to buy and build on land (I've decided I like individuals, but not being surrounded by people). Simma down now and hold off on that inflation for about 36 months, willya folks? :p

There are consequences to everything the government does, which is why I am a proponent of incremental change. Do something, see the effects, let things smooth out, then do some more. Not everything needs to be done overnight. Which should tell you everything you need to know about who I will vote for in November...

So far :) This whole thing has been mandated vacation for me, as everyone is healthy and I still have a job. Makes me worried about becoming blase about it, tbh; we have friends who are now unemployed, who are potentially about to lose their house, etc.. It's easier for me to shrug this off as "well, something we just all have to go through" than it is for them :(. The family is actually headed down to your state today. How are you and yours doing with opening-ish back up?

I am doing well. Things are opening up slowly. Hopefully slowly is not still too fast. Alot of restaurants are staying closed awhile longer as they simply think that is the wiser choice for them. Traffic is still down nicely(in Henry county, the population has grown way faster than the infrastructure to handle it, so traffic is a ****ing nightmare at times).
 
The right does not understand economics or inflation.
 
The right does not understand economics or inflation.

Anyone who engages in massive deficit spending believing in the unevidenced assumption that the future's uninterrupted growth will make up for it does not understand economics or inflation.
 
Anyone who engages in massive deficit spending believing in the unevidenced assumption that the future's uninterrupted growth will make up for it does not understand economics or inflation.

You should have told VP Cheney that.
 
Anyone who engages in massive deficit spending believing in the unevidenced assumption that the future's uninterrupted growth will make up for it does not understand economics or inflation.

That is not always true. But either way, we'd be in a far better position if the GOP had not repeatedly passed tax cut packages which, whether or not they slightly raised tax revenue, always required so much more borrowing that our yearly deficit exploded. Each time they promise that revenue will increase so much it will reduce the deficit, and each time it does not. (Because why would any company use tax cut profits to invest in building more widgets for which demand does not exist?).

Yes, I know there are other factors in play, but each time in the last few decades a GOP president got a tax cut package through, deficits exploded. I swear, this would be a far easier thing to deal with if we hadn't been an extra ten trillion in the hole (if not more) from the last two decades' recklessness.




The next question becomes: ignoring the past, might it not still be true that deficit spending in a crisis like this might produce a better - if still very crappy - outcome than doing nothing at all. The question Hoover faced. I'd say that one was already answered. Even despite the GOP's reckless tax policies of the past and even despite the increased danger of inflation they created were we to deficit spend, it seems likely better to do something rather than nothing.

The real problem here is human short-sightedness and greed. Yet there were other factors, but Clinton left us with a surplus. We then had two rounds of tax cuts, a pointless Iraq war on top of a justifiable Afghan war, Medicare D (which maybe is justified, but cost money), so on and so forth. That left us borrowing over 1 trillion a year in the best economy ever. And look where we are now. Even without the bailout, our deficits for the next few years would be in multiple trillions.

But, what if we did nothing and everything snowballed even more, a la Great Depression? The damage would likely be more.

What we really need to do once we are out of this is incrementally raise taxes across the board so that we are actually paying for what we spend, and only then talk about whether or not we want to cut spending. But we're not going to do that because in general, people are greedy and short-sighted. They'll vote out politicians who raise taxes. But politicians won't cut spending because everyone has their sacred cows and quite frankly I don't think it should be cut. I would prefer to pay a larger chunk of my income in taxes in exchange for the kind of security that most European countries provide their citizens.




Right now, we're still roughly around a 1:1 Debt:GDP ratio. We know that done properly, a country might even maintain a 2:1 ratio (see Japan). But we also know the end of the line is out there, somewhere, and things will get rougher the closer we get.

Here's my prediction: we kick the can down the road. We will not raise taxes to pay for what we spend. Some new disaster will be the last straw. The house of cards will tumble. True catastrophe will occur, spreading globally. Human advancement will be stalled if not knocked back for quite a while. Then we'll repeat it. Every single time the new generations will say "how could they do that?! The IDIOTS!", and they'll do better. But once they do better, their descendants will say "see, we got out of it. Let's push things". So on and so forth. So the wheel turns.

Cynical manifesto nobody will read complete.
 
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Without the Bush deregulation, the mortgage bubble would not have gotten anywhere near as big as it was.

What deregulation was that? I didn't think people still believed this stuff and that it was pretty well known that it was artificially low interest rates from the Federal Reserve that caused the mortgage bubble.
 
raising interest rates on that debt as a result get pretty ugly pretty fast

This is a nuanced statement based on a faulty assumption: interest rates are a function of supply and demand for loanable funds. Interest rate increases cannot be accompanied with inflation.

It would also be somewhat disastrous for our Boomers as they head into retirement.

Another false statement. Higher inflation would be a positive for those holding dollar (non-fixed income) denominated assets like equities and real estate. Higher inflation can be a problem for people on fixed incomes, as declines in purchasing power eat up disposable income. However, most fixed incomes include cost of living adjustments, which are often higher than inflation.

Is this another prediction thread? Every single prediction you've made so far has not come to pass. However, you've not evolved from this deficiency, and therefore your latest prediction will not come to pass.

That doesn't mean the economy would not benefit from some modest inflation (3% - 5%) in the short and medium turn... it's just not going to happen in this environment. Disinflation (even deflation) is on the horizon, and interest rates will go negative long before we see anything mentioned above.
 
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I've noticed they tend to leave out what the same money would have otherwise been doing when they run those projections.

I've already addressed this false narrative in multiple threads and you always cut and run. The same money wouldn't have been borrowed and then subsequently wouldn't have entered the economy. The opportunity cost of government spending, most commonly referred to as crowding out private investment, can be both identified and measured.

Crowding out is most likely to occur when deficit growth accompanies declines in the unemployment rate.
 
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