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Poverty is about mindset !!!

FinnFox

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I like to know what you think about poor people? Are they just stupid and lazy? And rich guys are all smart ones? (having lot of money is proof of being hard-working genius?)

I can imagine fancy ways to reduce poverty by making their lives even more miserable and increasing desperation to level where suicide is lovely relief. So that way poor people have built-in fix in their "bubble" and it's shrinking naturally every day.

Another way is just jail them all, make it illegal to be poor - so you can clean up your streets and let shiny stuff shine.

or

Socialist way is increasing equality by setting up needed standards / rights (education, healthcare, bernie stuff), but that isn't popular way to do it - I guess.
 


I like to know what you think about poor people? Are they just stupid and lazy? And rich guys are all smart ones? (having lot of money is proof of being hard-working genius?)

I can imagine fancy ways to reduce poverty by making their lives even more miserable and increasing desperation to level where suicide is lovely relief. So that way poor people have built-in fix in their "bubble" and it's shrinking naturally every day.

Another way is just jail them all, make it illegal to be poor - so you can clean up your streets and let shiny stuff shine.

or

Socialist way is increasing equality by setting up needed standards / rights (education, healthcare, bernie stuff), but that isn't popular way to do it - I guess.


Poverty needs to be better defined in order to discuss it. In its most basic terms, poverty is having an (annual household?) income below some threshold, for example the federal poverty level (FPL).

2019 Poverty Guidelines | ASPE

Let's use an example of a single person working full-time and earning $10/hour ($20K/year). As a single person they are not in poverty (below the FPL). Add a (non-working) spouse and their "household" is still not in poverty. Add one (or more) dependent child and suddenly they (or rather their household) are in poverty.

At least on paper that is the way it works. But add in the various "safety net" programs and that (3 or 4 person) "household" is making 40% or more over their stated income without anyone working for a higher wage or working any more hours. Medicaid alone adds (or makes unnecessary) about $8K/year. Of course, to supply those "safety net" benefits means reducing the (net) pay of others and/or increasing the cost of everything that those in poverty must buy.
 
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It's pretty easy to set some goals and follow them.

Military > GI Bill > education > good job

For example. It's just some of our sub cultures don't favor education, or the military for that matter.
 


I like to know what you think about poor people? Are they just stupid and lazy? And rich guys are all smart ones? (having lot of money is proof of being hard-working genius?)

I can imagine fancy ways to reduce poverty by making their lives even more miserable and increasing desperation to level where suicide is lovely relief. So that way poor people have built-in fix in their "bubble" and it's shrinking naturally every day.

Another way is just jail them all, make it illegal to be poor - so you can clean up your streets and let shiny stuff shine.

or

Socialist way is increasing equality by setting up needed standards / rights (education, healthcare, bernie stuff), but that isn't popular way to do it - I guess.




It is not socialism that we take care of each other. That's what's called a society. A society is lacking that does not do so. If pure capitalism/private industry is unable to provide the basic needs for survival of food, shelter, clothing and healthcare, then our social structure needs support from the whole of society via government involvement that makes up for where private enterprise is failing to meet the needs of the many. We've started to do that with healthcare, but still have a system that costs nearly twice as much as those countries with universal-type systems with outcomes no better or below theirs. The math is obvious that if they can do it, we can. It is democracy that calls for such action when the need is obviously there and there is otherwise nothing being done for a relatively long period of time to so prove-out. If you want to call that socialism to make yourself fell better or worse, fine. But we did the same thing with Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. The government has stepped-in to subsidize oil, coal, renewable energy, our high system, airports, bailouts and other many and ongoing subsidies of for-profit private enterprise.

We shouldn't wait until people have become homeless and then have shelter/internment facilities for them. That's a safety net laying on the ground to scoop them up and dump them into such a facility. It's all about being a society that has a system to be sure there are the means to provide for mere safe and healthy existence. If we can contribute so much as we have to private enterprise, the rich and large corps, then we can for people to have a cost of living existence.
 
It's pretty easy to set some goals and follow them.

Military > GI Bill > education > good job

For example. It's just some of our sub cultures don't favor education, or the military for that matter.

I guess being potentially sent off to fight someone else's war doesn't appeal to everyone.
 
I guess being potentially sent off to fight someone else's war doesn't appeal to everyone.

I can see that too, but maybe some people can see military as a tool to get other things happen - it's not 100% sure way but can increase your chances? (for better life / higher standards of living)
 
It is not socialism that we take care of each other. That's what's called a society. A society is lacking that does not do so. If pure capitalism/private industry is unable to provide the basic needs for survival of food, shelter, clothing and healthcare, then our social structure needs support from the whole of society via government involvement that makes up for where private enterprise is failing to meet the needs of the many. We've started to do that with healthcare, but still have a system that costs nearly twice as much as those countries with universal-type systems with outcomes no better or below theirs. The math is obvious that if they can do it, we can. It is democracy that calls for such action when the need is obviously there and there is otherwise nothing being done for a relatively long period of time to so prove-out. If you want to call that socialism to make yourself fell better or worse, fine. But we did the same thing with Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. The government has stepped-in to subsidize oil, coal, renewable energy, our high system, airports, bailouts and other many and ongoing subsidies of for-profit private enterprise.

We shouldn't wait until people have become homeless and then have shelter/internment facilities for them. That's a safety net laying on the ground to scoop them up and dump them into such a facility. It's all about being a society that has a system to be sure there are the means to provide for mere safe and healthy existence. If we can contribute so much as we have to private enterprise, the rich and large corps, then we can for people to have a cost of living existence.

WTF? Are you now saying that we must treat (any an all of?) those who fail to support themselves and their dependents as if they were elderly and/or disabled? How, exactly, would you fund such a system? Are you talking about a UBI/BIG system for everyone (like Yang has proposed) or only a much larger "safety net" for the loafing class?

Once you make working necessary only to obtain luxuries (all basic needs being provided by the state) then you have created widespread poverty (more and more folks not earning enough to support themselves and their dependents) - not solved it.
 
It is nothing new for those on the right to ignore economics, sociology, just about every academia known just to reduce poverty as nothing more than something to blame on the poor.

Nothing in the clip was even original... just more nonsense.
 
Capitalism requires a reserve army of labor to function.

This is typically expressed as the "natural rate of unemployment", which is formulated as some arbitrary threshhold - generally, although not always, around 3% - beyond which any further gains in employment will drive up inflation etc. as the much-increased ranks of the working-class demand higher wages. And this is necessary for less esoteric reasons - a reserve army of labor dissipates the organized power of unions, creates a mass which can be drafted either into the military or the productive economy during war or disaster, etc. Unemployment gives the capitalists 'flexibility'.

This is, to some degree, an actual recognition of class conflict: labor can never be too strong, or else they'll make demands of us we cannot possibly hope to meet. To a much greater degree however it is merely structural, and advantageous to capitals which exist to deal with the issues produced by the unemployed (temp services, State bureaucracies, the penal system, &etc.). Indeed, in a genuine full-employment economy it is no guarantee that interests lime agribusiness, which depend on programs like EBTT for regular infusions of profit, would not fail.

The Keynesian solution to this has been to turn the government into the employer of last resort. Which works -- for a time, until the private capitals necessary to fund the State are crowded out and exhausted by the entrance of the government into the field of competition. This largely accounts for the stagflation of the 1970s, incomprehensible to the bourgeois orthodoxy of Keynesianism.

Capitalism, in fact, has nothing against the lumpenproletariat as such; this is more a concern for the petit-bourgeois, themselves only ever a handful of steps from proletarianization. And being incapable of materially analyzing the society around them, this class turns to moralistic jeremaiads to explain endogenous occurrences within Capital, whether in defense of or in opposition to the lumpen.
 
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It is nothing new for those on the right to ignore economics, sociology, just about every academia known just to reduce poverty as nothing more than something to blame on the poor.

Nothing in the clip was even original... just more nonsense.

And it is nothing new for democrats to make excuses for the poor. Neither one address the issues.
 
And it is nothing new for democrats to make excuses for the poor. Neither one address the issues.

Then do so, address the issues... we’ll wait.
 
I repeat:

Capitalism requires a reserve army of labor to function.

This is typically expressed as the "natural rate of unemployment", which is formulated as some arbitrary threshhold - generally, although not always, around 3% - beyond which any further gains in employment will drive up inflation etc. as the much-increased ranks of the working-class demand higher wages. And this is necessary for less esoteric reasons - a reserve army of labor dissipates the organized power of unions, creates a mass which can be drafted either into the military or the productive economy during war or disaster, etc. Unemployment gives the capitalists 'flexibility'.

This is, to some degree, an actual recognition of class conflict: labor can never be too strong, or else they'll make demands of us we cannot possibly hope to meet. To a much greater degree however it is merely structural, and advantageous to capitals which exist to deal with the issues produced by the unemployed (temp services, State bureaucracies, the penal system, &etc.). Indeed, in a genuine full-employment economy it is no guarantee that interests lime agribusiness, which depend on programs like EBTT for regular infusions of profit, would not fail.

The Keynesian solution to this has been to turn the government into the employer of last resort. Which works -- for a time, until the private capitals necessary to fund the State are crowded out and exhausted by the entrance of the government into the field of competition. This largely accounts for the stagflation of the 1970s, incomprehensible to the bourgeois orthodoxy of Keynesianism.

Capitalism, in fact, has nothing against the lumpenproletariat as such; this is more a concern for the petit-bourgeois, themselves only ever a handful of steps from proletarianization. And being incapable of materially analyzing the society around them, this class turns to moralistic jeremaiads to explain endogenous occurrences within Capital, whether in defense of or in opposition to the lumpen.
 
Then do so, address the issues... we’ll wait.

Your response reflects the typical democratic mentality: I will sit here and do nothing and expect someone else to spoon feed me.
 
Your response reflects the typical democratic mentality: I will sit here and do nothing and expect someone else to spoon feed me.

We are waiting... still.
 


I like to know what you think about poor people? Are they just stupid and lazy? And rich guys are all smart ones? (having lot of money is proof of being hard-working genius?)

I can imagine fancy ways to reduce poverty by making their lives even more miserable and increasing desperation to level where suicide is lovely relief. So that way poor people have built-in fix in their "bubble" and it's shrinking naturally every day.

Another way is just jail them all, make it illegal to be poor - so you can clean up your streets and let shiny stuff shine.

or

Socialist way is increasing equality by setting up needed standards / rights (education, healthcare, bernie stuff), but that isn't popular way to do it - I guess.
And yet every socialist country so far has collapsed into totalitarian disasters. You do know that the countries Bernie idolizes deny being socialist, right?
 
We could bring back the poor houses of the 1920s.
 
We could bring back the poor houses of the 1920s.

That's great idea! Poor houses should be in desert or in country side so rich people can't see them. Hiding poverty is way to go, maybe rich folks forget those completely (life goal for the rich).
 
It's pretty easy to set some goals and follow them.

Military > GI Bill > education > good job

For example. It's just some of our sub cultures don't favor education, or the military for that matter.

Not a bad formula. A job training camp with assistance on future education plus in some cases affirmative action points for being a veteran when you compete for govt jobs.

Seriously, my mom used to preach that as a path to a sustainable future. Absent war, that is.
 
Unfortunately, there are people in society who cannot fend for themselves, either because of physical, mental, or emotional handicaps. It's funny how some Right-Wing political idealists simply want to deny that these people exist.
 
You are correct about mindset: About 9% of the population is borderline retarded and capable of only menial tasks, they account for a large portion of the poor. Whatever extra income they do get will go to low-income wastes of money like lottery tickets, alcohol and cigarettes.
 
WTF? Are you now saying that we must treat (any an all of?) those who fail to support themselves and their dependents as if they were elderly and/or disabled? How, exactly, would you fund such a system? Are you talking about a UBI/BIG system for everyone (like Yang has proposed) or only a much larger "safety net" for the loafing class?

Once you make working necessary only to obtain luxuries (all basic needs being provided by the state) then you have created widespread poverty (more and more folks not earning enough to support themselves and their dependents) - not solved it.



SS, etc., are paid-in by all of us and we are due what is agreed. It’s the law. Do you wish to change that arrangement? If so, in what way?

I said “be sure there are the means to provide” a “cost of living existence”. IMO, that would be COL wages determined by region and adjusted annually based on CPI, subsidized by the federal government through a more progressive tax system than we have now, until private industry can handle the whole of COL wages.

Such would leave very fewer people left leading a poverty or near-poverty existence requiring government assistance than we have now.

The point is, private enterprise has proven incapable of providing COL existence to all Americans willing to work. This is when, and only when, the government should step-in and provide for the whole what private industry/capitalism cannot w/o government support.
 
SS, etc., are paid-in by all of us and we are due what is agreed. It’s the law. Do you wish to change that arrangement? If so, in what way?

I said “be sure there are the means to provide” a “cost of living existence”. IMO, that would be COL wages determined by region and adjusted annually based on CPI, subsidized by the federal government through a more progressive tax system than we have now, until private industry can handle the whole of COL wages.

Such would leave very fewer people left leading a poverty or near-poverty existence requiring government assistance than we have now.

The point is, private enterprise has proven incapable of providing COL existence to all Americans willing to work. This is when, and only when, the government should step-in and provide for the whole what private industry/capitalism cannot w/o government support.

The problem with your call for a "living wage" (or federal assistance to artificially create one) is that it's very definition is dependent, as is the federal poverty level, on household size and total (including that from other sources) thus household income.

Assume that you have two workers (A and B), toiling side by side, at the same entry level task for the same employer.

1) Does the employer pay both worker A and worker B same hourly wage?

2) Is that hourly wage to be based on the financial need of worker A (with two minor dependents and no other household income) or on the financial need of worker B (with no minor dependents and a spouse currently making $15/hour)?

3) Is it "fair" that one worker (or worker's household) receive a net difference in household income via public assistance?
 
The problem with your call for a "living wage" (or federal assistance to artificially create one) is that it's very definition is dependent, as is the federal poverty level, on household size and total (including that from other sources) thus household income.

Assume that you have two workers (A and B), toiling side by side, at the same entry level task for the same employer.

1) Does the employer pay both worker A and worker B same hourly wage?

2) Is that hourly wage to be based on the financial need of worker A (with two minor dependents and no other household income) or on the financial need of worker B (with no minor dependents and a spouse currently making $15/hour)?

3) Is it "fair" that one worker (or worker's household) receive a net difference in household income via public assistance?



Is it fair to subsidize multi-billion-dollar corps to in turn give their executive level employees millions of dollars while workers at the bottom of the pile struggle to make ends meet?

Is it fair to subsidize the rich and big business with tax cuts that increase their wealth w/o them having done a single thing for that money while the average American who were promised a 10% tax cut didn’t get it?

Assume that you have a system of capitalism which allows people to gain in wage through merit that though their productivity increases they still don’t get a matching increase in wage, while those at the top continue to get increases at a greater rate getting money beyond need while the rest try to figure out how to pay the bills. Oh, wait, that’s not an assumption, that’s a reality. That is fact.

So, you tell me. What is your solution? Or, do you believe there is no problem and what is happening, as I just described, is perfectly fair?
 
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