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Thread: Poverty is about mindset !!!

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Unfortunately, there are people in society who cannot fend for themselves, either because of physical, mental, or emotional handicaps. It's funny how some Right-Wing political idealists simply want to deny that these people exist.

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    You are correct about mindset: About 9% of the population is borderline retarded and capable of only menial tasks, they account for a large portion of the poor. Whatever extra income they do get will go to low-income wastes of money like lottery tickets, alcohol and cigarettes.
    Let's treat ourselves like we treat our fellow man. I'm moving my family to the Pine Ridge reservation. Who's with me?

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    WTF? Are you now saying that we must treat (any an all of?) those who fail to support themselves and their dependents as if they were elderly and/or disabled? How, exactly, would you fund such a system? Are you talking about a UBI/BIG system for everyone (like Yang has proposed) or only a much larger "safety net" for the loafing class?

    Once you make working necessary only to obtain luxuries (all basic needs being provided by the state) then you have created widespread poverty (more and more folks not earning enough to support themselves and their dependents) - not solved it.


    SS, etc., are paid-in by all of us and we are due what is agreed. It’s the law. Do you wish to change that arrangement? If so, in what way?

    I said “be sure there are the means to provide” a “cost of living existence”. IMO, that would be COL wages determined by region and adjusted annually based on CPI, subsidized by the federal government through a more progressive tax system than we have now, until private industry can handle the whole of COL wages.

    Such would leave very fewer people left leading a poverty or near-poverty existence requiring government assistance than we have now.

    The point is, private enterprise has proven incapable of providing COL existence to all Americans willing to work. This is when, and only when, the government should step-in and provide for the whole what private industry/capitalism cannot w/o government support.

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    SS, etc., are paid-in by all of us and we are due what is agreed. It’s the law. Do you wish to change that arrangement? If so, in what way?

    I said “be sure there are the means to provide” a “cost of living existence”. IMO, that would be COL wages determined by region and adjusted annually based on CPI, subsidized by the federal government through a more progressive tax system than we have now, until private industry can handle the whole of COL wages.

    Such would leave very fewer people left leading a poverty or near-poverty existence requiring government assistance than we have now.

    The point is, private enterprise has proven incapable of providing COL existence to all Americans willing to work. This is when, and only when, the government should step-in and provide for the whole what private industry/capitalism cannot w/o government support.
    The problem with your call for a "living wage" (or federal assistance to artificially create one) is that it's very definition is dependent, as is the federal poverty level, on household size and total (including that from other sources) thus household income.

    Assume that you have two workers (A and B), toiling side by side, at the same entry level task for the same employer.

    1) Does the employer pay both worker A and worker B same hourly wage?

    2) Is that hourly wage to be based on the financial need of worker A (with two minor dependents and no other household income) or on the financial need of worker B (with no minor dependents and a spouse currently making $15/hour)?

    3) Is it "fair" that one worker (or worker's household) receive a net difference in household income via public assistance?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The problem with your call for a "living wage" (or federal assistance to artificially create one) is that it's very definition is dependent, as is the federal poverty level, on household size and total (including that from other sources) thus household income.

    Assume that you have two workers (A and B), toiling side by side, at the same entry level task for the same employer.

    1) Does the employer pay both worker A and worker B same hourly wage?

    2) Is that hourly wage to be based on the financial need of worker A (with two minor dependents and no other household income) or on the financial need of worker B (with no minor dependents and a spouse currently making $15/hour)?

    3) Is it "fair" that one worker (or worker's household) receive a net difference in household income via public assistance?


    Is it fair to subsidize multi-billion-dollar corps to in turn give their executive level employees millions of dollars while workers at the bottom of the pile struggle to make ends meet?

    Is it fair to subsidize the rich and big business with tax cuts that increase their wealth w/o them having done a single thing for that money while the average American who were promised a 10% tax cut didn’t get it?

    Assume that you have a system of capitalism which allows people to gain in wage through merit that though their productivity increases they still don’t get a matching increase in wage, while those at the top continue to get increases at a greater rate getting money beyond need while the rest try to figure out how to pay the bills. Oh, wait, that’s not an assumption, that’s a reality. That is fact.

    So, you tell me. What is your solution? Or, do you believe there is no problem and what is happening, as I just described, is perfectly fair?

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    Is it fair to subsidize multi-billion-dollar corps to in turn give their executive level employees millions of dollars while workers at the bottom of the pile struggle to make ends meet?

    Is it fair to subsidize the rich and big business with tax cuts that increase their wealth w/o them having done a single thing for that money while the average American who were promised a 10% tax cut didn’t get it?

    Assume that you have a system of capitalism which allows people to gain in wage through merit that though their productivity increases they still don’t get a matching increase in wage, while those at the top continue to get increases at a greater rate getting money beyond need while the rest try to figure out how to pay the bills. Oh, wait, that’s not an assumption, that’s a reality. That is fact.

    So, you tell me. What is your solution? Or, do you believe there is no problem and what is happening, as I just described, is perfectly fair?
    Toads, fruit loops and cinder blocks for sure. As you can see, it's easy to quote a post and not reply to any questions in it.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Toads, fruit loops and cinder blocks for sure. As you can see, it's easy to quote a post and not reply to any questions in it.


    I am saying that those who are getting the least, just crumbs from the pie, have every right to get whatever they can, whether you believe fairly or not, as do the rich and corps. I’m not arguing against the scenario you give, which is a dodge from the bigger argument. I’m just saying if one side gets away with it, why can’t the other? At least those that receive a living wage will spend that money on product and service that profits business and employs workers as opposed to the $1,000,000,000,000 that the rich and corps got for doing nothing that just goes into their own wealth. Until you can justify the subsidizing of the rich and large corps, I don’t see why I need to justify giving people enough wage to live without having to scrape to put food on the table because employers aren’t paying them enough.

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    I am saying that those who are getting the least, just crumbs from the pie, have every right to get whatever they can, whether you believe fairly or not, as do the rich and corps. I’m not arguing against the scenario you give, which is a dodge from the bigger argument. I’m just saying if one side gets away with it, why can’t the other? At least those that receive a living wage will spend that money on product and service that profits business and employs workers as opposed to the $1,000,000,000,000 that the rich and corps got for doing nothing that just goes into their own wealth. Until you can justify the subsidizing of the rich and large corps, I don’t see why I need to justify giving people enough wage to live without having to scrape to put food on the table because employers aren’t paying them enough.
    The problem with the many "safety net" programs is that they also apply downward pressure on wages. If one needs $X/month in order to meet their household's living expenses, then they likely don't much care how much of that $X comes from their meager paycheck and how much is added (or made unnecessary) by their "safety net" assistance.

    As I stated before, household income is a totally different thing than a worker's wage - unless you assume that each household is limited to and mandated to have one full-time worker. It is simply unrealistic to pay an entry level worker (e.g. a GS-2 now earning from about $21K to $25K annually) enough to support themselves, a spouse and 5 minor dependent children.

    General Schedule (US civil service pay scale) - Wikipedia
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 11-06-19 at 02:23 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The problem with the many "safety net" programs is that they also apply downward pressure on wages. If one needs $X/month in order to meet their household's living expenses, then they likely don't much care how much of that $X comes from their meager paycheck and how much is added (or made unnecessary) by their "safety net" assistance.

    As I stated before, household income is a totally different thing than a worker's wage - unless you assume that each household is limited to and mandated to have one full-time worker. It is simply unrealistic to pay an entry level worker (e.g. a GS-2 now earning from about $21K to $25K annually) enough to support themselves, a spouse and 5 minor dependent children.

    General Schedule (US civil service pay scale) - Wikipedia


    It is simply unrealistic to not pay living wages and expect Americans to get by without too much struggle and sacrifice. THAT’S unrealistic.

    It’s unrealistic to pay for the “safety net” of golden balloon lifts to the rich and corps to fly higher while refusing those with the least more than mere crumbs from the pie of wealth distribution that Trump gave away to his buddies.

    Real median household income, besides per capita, is a much better indicator of how well Americans are doing by income than measuring by wages. It is not unusual for wages to go up and hours worked to go down, resulting in no real gain.

    You keep avoiding the fact that wealth distribution favors the rich and large corps. I don’t even know what your position is on that. At least you know where I stand. Please let me know your position on that subject. Spam not necessary.

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    Re: Poverty is about mindset !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post


    I like to know what you think about poor people? Are they just stupid and lazy? And rich guys are all smart ones? (having lot of money is proof of being hard-working genius?)

    I can imagine fancy ways to reduce poverty by making their lives even more miserable and increasing desperation to level where suicide is lovely relief. So that way poor people have built-in fix in their "bubble" and it's shrinking naturally every day.

    Another way is just jail them all, make it illegal to be poor - so you can clean up your streets and let shiny stuff shine.

    or

    Socialist way is increasing equality by setting up needed standards / rights (education, healthcare, bernie stuff), but that isn't popular way to do it - I guess.
    Since 60% of the nations wealthy inherited it....I'd say we know why there are rich and poor. It has little to do with mindset, hard work or bootstraps.
    If you want something bad enough, just take it.

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