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Minimum wage, a character issue.

Aristaeus said:
How, if government welfare has been eliminated?
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By a law specifically for that purpose alone.

But it might also be that the number of such persons would be so few that charities alone could provide necessary assistance without any government involvement, leaving people to put their money where their mouth is.
 
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Individual said:
By a law specifically for that purpose alone.

But it might also be that the number of such persons would be so few that charities alone could provide necessary assistance without any government involvement, leaving people to put their money where their mouth is.
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replacing it with charity is a terrible idea. You're removing the certainty of a fixed income from the government, and replacing it with uncertainty that results from relying on other people's charity. They will never know from one month to the next if the charity has been given enough money to help everyone that relies on them.
 
I'm Supposn said:
Eriech, eliminating the federal minimum wage would increase USA jobs, but those additional jobs would almost entirely be performing tasks that previously did not justify the minimum wage rate at extremely lower than the eliminated federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power.

Due to the elimination of the enforced definite federal minimum rate, the indefinite market determined minimum rate will “race to the bottom”, somewhat reducing all other USA wage rates.

Despite the increased jobs that may, (or may not) slightly increase our GDP the reduced purchasing powers of all job's wage rates will increase incidences of poverty and needs for public assistance. Our nation's living standards and the purchasing powers of our governments' tax revenues would also then be reduced.

What did you mean when you wrote, "and creates a maximum wage for others"?

Respectfully, Supposn
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Say a small business is currently paying $10-$15 with opportunities for over time. Budget for payroll is 20% of sales.

Raise the minimum to $15 dollars what will happen?

The real minimum wage is and will always be $ 0


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Aristaeus said:
replacing it with charity is a terrible idea. You're removing the certainty of a fixed income from the government, and replacing it with uncertainty that results from relying on other people's charity. They will never know from one month to the next if the charity has been given enough money to help everyone that relies on them.
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No one should become dependent upon a fixed income provided by government.
Which is why I suggested "leaving people to put their money where their mouth is".
The charities along with the people will know, and make their needs known.
 
Eriech said:
Say a small business is currently paying $10-$15 with opportunities for over time. Budget for payroll is 20% of sales.
Raise the minimum to $15 dollars what will happen?
The real minimum wage is and will always be $ 0
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I'm Supposn said:
Federal minimum wage rate.
I'm a proponent of the federal minimum wage be increased12.5% annually until it achieves no less than 125% of February 1968 cost price indexed value. Thereafter the monitored minimum rate should annually (when necessary), be modified to retain that purchasing power. ...
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I'm Supposn said:
Eriech, eliminating the federal minimum wage would increase USA jobs, but those additional jobs would almost entirely be performing tasks that previously did not justify the minimum wage rate at extremely lower than the eliminated federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power.

Due to the elimination of the enforced definite federal minimum rate, the indefinite market determined minimum rate will “race to the bottom”, somewhat reducing all other USA wage rates.

Despite the increased jobs that may, (or may not) slightly increase our GDP the reduced purchasing powers of all job's wage rates will increase incidences of poverty and needs for public assistance. Our nation's living standards and the purchasing powers of our governments' tax revenues would also then be reduced. ...
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Respectfully, Supposn
 
Individual said:
No one should become dependent upon a fixed income provided by government.
Which is why I suggested "leaving people to put their money where their mouth is".
The charities along with the people will know, and make their needs known.
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If you can never work, then they should become dependent for a fixed income. Charities cannot guarantee a fixed income to those who can never work because they cannot guarantee donations.
 
Aristaeus said:
If you can never work, then they should become dependent for a fixed income. Charities cannot guarantee a fixed income to those who can never work because they cannot guarantee donations.
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How many persons can never work? But just putting those who can work, to work, would be a major accomplishment.
 
I'm Supposn said:
Respectfully, Supposn
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I guess I was too subtle. You asked:
" What did you mean when you wrote, "and creates a maximum wage for others"?

I was trying to get you to the answer on your own with the scenario.

If you artificially raise the per hour costs of labor it has to come from somewhere. Reduced hours, no overtime, reduced increases in pay for existing employees. Increased automation.

I have never thought much about an hourly rate. Week total, monthly total, annual net. I have always received a salary......made the mistake of figuring the hourly equivalent once. It was ugly. Lol

Most of the country has a much higher minimum wage than the federal. I noticed New Hampshire eliminated their minimum wage (now at the federal level) in 2011. No minimum wage, no income tax, no sales tax......live free or die







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I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, U.S. states with higher wage rates are at a price disadvantage due to cheaper goods from other lower wage rate states.
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I thought we were talking about minimum wage states, not low wage states? West Virginia has the lowest median income, and minimum wage of $8.75/hr. While next door, Virginia has the tenth highest median income (and 5 of the ten richest counties in the country) and a minimum wage set to the federal rate.

While there is some correlation with low income and low minimum wage, it is clearly not the case that a low minimum wage rate leads to low median income.

And Keep in mind that of the 156 million employed in 2018, 1.7 million worked for at or below federal minimum wage. That’s 1% and includes waiters and waitresses who make more than minimum wage after tips. Minimum wage cannot have a large effect on overall wages.

Due to technological advances, particularly increased and improved communications at lesser costs, more service products no longer require they be performed at or nearer the purchasers or users sites. Higher wage states loss of service products production will increase as has losses of goods production.
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Except minimum wage and below tend to be jobs like food service, and sales. And low wage states are rural and agricultural.

These trends to the extents of labor cost differences between the states are detrimental to the economies of higher wage rate states.
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Except there is no empirical evidence that supports that claim. The economies of higher wage states are much better than lower wage.

The federal minimum wage does not explicitly, but effectively reduces differences between higher and lower rate states by establishing a minimum rate beyond which the lower wage rate state cannot pass.
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Where is your evidence for that?

Eliminating or reducing the federal minimum rate would leave states higher minimum wage rates less enforceable, sustainable, and effective.
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And you still have not supported that claim.

Sources:
State minimum wages
Characteristics of minimum wage workers 2018
State income
 
pinqy said:
I thought we were talking about minimum wage states, not low wage states? ...
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Pinqy, I don't know what you mean by “minimum wage states”.

FYI, just so we understand each other: Throughout the world, labor markets within every political jurisdiction have in effect what we in the USA consider as a “minimum wage rate”, (i.e. a rate applicable to the very least capable or desirable employee or job applicant.

USA's federal minimum wage rate is an explicit, definite rate determined and legally reasonably enforced by our federal government.

In the USA, wherever there are multi minimum wage rates, the greatest rate that is effectively enforced, is the applicable minimum rate; but in the USA a minimum wage rate is inconsequential if there's a shortage of available labor to perform any particular task or job. I suppose these two stipulations hold true in most, if not in all of the world's labor markets.

There are various differences of minimum wage rate concepts and methods throughout the world; such as:

Indefinite and market determined rates.

Definite rates determined by some non-government or quasi-government entities such as labor unions.

Definite or indefinite rates determined by social customs some other than a government.

If the U.S. federal minimum wage rate were eliminated, a state's minimum rate would be much more difficult to enforce and sustain, thus reducing its effectiveness.
To the extent that a state's minimum rate exceeds the federal minimum wage rate, the state's rate is somewhat less sustainable and to a lesser degree, somewhat more difficult to enforce; all of which somewhat hinders those higher rate's effectiveness.

In all cases, difficulties for states with higher minimum wage rates. There are particular difficulties for higher minimum rate political jurisdictions, to the extents of differences where they border other lower minimum rate political jurisdictions.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Individual said:
How many persons can never work? But just putting those who can work, to work, would be a major accomplishment.
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What is your solution to a future with less of a need for human labor?
 
Kushinator said:
What is your solution to a future with less of a need for human labor?
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You're on my ignore list, probably for good reason, but I viewed your response out of curiosity and feel it is an excellent question to ask if, and only if, the intent is to actually work toward achieving a viable solution. So if you truly see this as an issue we should resolve, how would you suggest we might begin solving it? And if you respond in a way that shows an honest attempt to reach a consensus I will remove you from my ignore list and see if we and others can engage in finding a rational solution to the issue.
 
pinqy said:
... Keep in mind that of the 156 million employed in 2018, 1.7 million worked for at or below federal minimum wage. That’s 1% and includes waiters and waitresses who make more than minimum wage after tips. Minimum wage cannot have a large effect on overall wages. ...
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Pinqy, I'm not a statistician but I would suppose for the bottom fifth of USA's full-time employees' portion of USA's population, the federal minimum wage rate's effects upon their employment earnings ranges from extremely-critical to critical.
[That would include the waitresses you mistakenly believe are not affected by the federal minimum wage rate. Due to the economic concept of wage differentials, all USA wages are somewhat affected by the federal minimum wage rate].

There are more employees earning lesser rather than greater wage rates. Due to the mathematical concept of the median value, reducing or increasing the minimum wage rate causes the median rate to also reduce or increase.

I suppose that among the 2nd lowest fifth of USA's full-time employees, the federal minimum wage rate's effects upon their employment earnings ranges from very-important for those within the
21-30% bracket, and substantial (rather than very important), for those within the 31-40% bracket of full-time employees.

Among the bottom half of the middle fifth, (the 41-50% bracket), I suppose the federal minimum wage rate's effects upon those employees' earnings range from more or less perceivable.

[The (49.99-50.01%) sub-bracket are those employees earning at or approximately the median rate].

So in my unprofessional opinion, the federal minimum wage rate affects 20% of USA's full-time employees' wages as more or less critically or affects 30% of them as ranging from extremely critical to very important.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
pinqy said:
... West Virginia has the lowest median income, and minimum wage of $8.75/hr. While next door, Virginia has the tenth highest median income (and 5 of the ten richest counties in the country) and a minimum wage set to the federal rate.

While there is some correlation with low income and low minimum wage, it is clearly not the case that a low minimum wage rate leads to low median income. ...
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Pinqy, I'm discussing how, why, and to what extent minimum wage laws affect jobs' wages for workers within a state or our nation. Minimum wage laws are not the only factors that effecting jobs' wages.
Do you attribute Virginia individual counties high median wage to their lesser minimum wage rate, or possibly their proximity to our nation's capital and its jobs is a more contributing factor?

Note that median “income” and “wage” differ. Their aggregate effects upon their state's or nation's economies somewhat differ. Respectfully, Supposn
 
Individual said:
You're on my ignore list, probably for good reason, but I viewed your response out of curiosity and feel it is an excellent question to ask if, and only if, the intent is to actually work toward achieving a viable solution. So if you truly see this as an issue we should resolve, how would you suggest we might begin solving it? And if you respond in a way that shows an honest attempt to reach a consensus I will remove you from my ignore list and see if we and others can engage in finding a rational solution to the issue.
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Who you have on ignore isn't the subject of the thread nor does it pertain to my question (which you choose to not answer in your response) in any possible way.

With that type of attitude, you might as well put me back on ignore.
 
Kushinator said:
Who you have on ignore isn't the subject of the thread nor does it pertain to my question (which you choose to not answer in your response) in any possible way.

With that type of attitude, you might as well put me back on ignore.
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Done!
 
pinqy said:
... there is no empirical evidence that supports that [supposn's] claim. The economies of higher wage states are much better than lower wage [states]. ... Where is your evidence for that? ... And you still have not supported that claim. ...
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Pinqy, I agreed (as you pointed out), we should be try to be more careful not to confuse our use or refences to the words “income, minimum wage, or minimum wage-rate” with each other.

I'm discussing how, why, and to what extent minimum wage laws affect jobs' wages for workers within our nation or its states. Minimum wage rates are not the only factors that affect jobs' wages.

If the federal minimum wage rate were eliminated, some state would choose not to have any legally enforceable minimum, some states would choose to have a much lesser legal minimum than its neighbors, and regardless of state minimums, some states may not effectively enforce their own minimum rate.

Its politically more difficult for a state to sustain and enforce their legal minimum, to the extent that other U.S. states effectively have lesser minimums; this is particularly the case for legal higher minimum counties bordering other counties, (including those in their own state), to the extents that the other counties' minimum rates are effectively less.

You do not understand why I believe this to be true? You believe this to be entirely or partially false? I don't know what it is that you doubt or why you doubt it; if you answer that you doubt it all, (I.e. “everything”), then I can tell you nothing more.

It's your opinion these arguments are logically weak, and you may choose not to logically confront them. That's yours, (rather than my) choice.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
I'm Supposn said:
Too many people consider economics as always a “zero-sum game”;(i.e. one's gain must be at the expense of other's losses). It ain't necessarily so, and it is specifically not so with regard to the U.S. federal minimum wage rate. [Paul Wellstone was a U.S. Senator from Minnesota]. ....
... The progressive vision: We all do better when we all do better | MinnPost
The rallying cry of the labor movement is “an injury to one is an injury to all.” The Bible teaches us that “I am my brother’s keeper.” Benjamin Franklin implored fellow delegates to sign the Declaration of Independence saying, “We must hang together or most assuredly we will all hang separately.” And Paul Wellstone used to always say, “We all do better when we all do better.”
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Respectfully, Supposn
 
I'm Supposn said:
Respectfully, Supposn
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Reasons intelligent people oppose minimum wage:

1) MW it illegal to employ people not worth minimum wage
2) raise prices for poor people who often shop where minimum wage folks work
3) speeds up automation and replacement of minimum wage jobs
4) teaches workers that you get ahead with govt violence rather than being worth more
5) raises prices, reduces demand, and thus reduces employment
6) makes American workers even less competitive with foreign workers
7) makes a huge % of work force (42%) minimum age workers with no incentive to improve their skills.
8) speeds up transition from high density brick and mortar employment to low density on line employment
9) encourages govt to enact similar libsocialist policies to get more votes from the supposed beneficiaries
10) a higher minimum wage encourages higher skilled workers to take jobs that were once held by mimimum wage workers.
11) nothing is free.MW encourages employers to extract more in productivity, conditions, fringe benefits, scheduling, vacation/sick days, overtime, etc etc.
 
James972 said:
Reasons intelligent people oppose minimum wage:
(1) MW it illegal to employ people not worth minimum wage ...
... (5) raises prices, reduces demand, and thus reduces employment ...
... (8) speeds up transition from high density brick and mortar employment to low density on line employment ...
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James972, I already responded to these 3 questions. Respectfully, Supposn
I'm Supposn said:
James972:
(1) What did you mean by this sentence, “MW it illegal to employ people not worth minimum wage”?
(8) What did you mean by this sentence, “Speeds up transition from high density brick and mortar employment to low density on line employment?

5) Eliminating the federal minimum wage rate would increase jobs of extremely lesser than our current minimum wage rate's purchasing power. Because there would be no legaly enforced “bottom” to wages, at any given time the indefinite market determined minimum wage rate would be the extremely poorest possible purchasing power then possible. Due to the economic concept of wage differentiation, the purchasing powers of all other wage rates would also be somewhat adversely effected.

It's not a certainty, because many enterprises are dependent upon the financial well being of those in the lower and/or the middle income earning brackets, but it likely that the nation's jobs will increase.

The nation's GDP may slightly increase. The GDP increase would be small because the additional jobs would almost entirely be tasks that previously did not justify the cost of having them done.

But due to the reduced purchasing power of the nation's market determined effective minimum wage rate and our median wage rate, our nation's incidents of poverty will increase. Specifically, both the proportion of our workforce that are the working poor, and the proportion of the working poor in need of public assistance will both be significantly increase. Thus due to the elimination of the federal minimum wage rate, the purchasing powers of our wages and our living standard will be reduced.
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James972 said:
Reasons intelligent people oppose minimum wage: ...
... (2) raise prices for poor people who often shop where minimum wage folks work
3) speeds up automation and replacement of minimum wage jobs
4) teaches workers that you get ahead with govt violence rather than being worth more ...
... (6) makes American workers even less competitive with foreign workers
7) makes a huge % of work force (42%) minimum age workers with no incentive to improve their skills. ...
... (9) encourages govt to enact similar libsocialist policies to get more votes from the supposed beneficiaries
10) a higher minimum wage encourages higher skilled workers to take jobs that were once held by mimimum wage workers.
11) nothing is free.MW encourages employers to extract more in productivity, conditions, fringe benefits, scheduling, vacation/sick days, overtime, etc etc.
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James972, I already responded to these 8 questions. Respectfully, Supposn
I'm Supposn said:
James972:
(2) Does the minimum wage rate raise prices only for poor people who often shop where minimum wage folks work? You mean that prices don't rise if the minimum wage rate doesn't rise? If we eliminated the federal minimum wage, the consumer price indexes would remain static? The minimum wage is among the primary causes of U.S. Dollar's rate of inflation and those price increases are only or more applicable to products that are primarily sold to poorer purchasers?

(3) The minimum wage does promote automation and replacement of many jobs including minimum wage jobs. We know that's to our nation's economic advantage and promote better living standards.
Among the characteristics of the worlds poorest nations is their inability to enforces anything that performs a function similar to the U.S. federal minimum wage rate, which would bolster all of their wage scales purchasing powers. Due to lower wage purchasing powers, the nation is slower to adopt automation which would otherwise improve their nations' economies.

(4) Due to the federal minimum wage rate, workers are induced to riot?

(6) Yes, if you reduce USA's wages' purchasing powers and our living standards, our products could become so cheap that other nations may further restrict USA goods from entering their markets because our prices would be too competitive.

(7) You contend that 42% of USA workforce now refrains from improving their ability to earn more because they're entirely satisfied with their present wages?

(9) Encourages govt to enact similar* libsocialist policies to get more votes from the supposed beneficiaries? I think I understand what you meant and I wish it were true.

(10) A higher minimum wage encourages higher skilled workers to take jobs that were once held by minimum wage workers? You mean that if the minimum wage is increased, the foreman is not going to get a raise. He's going to quit and work somewhere else as a mens' room attendant?

11) You mean if we eliminate the federal minimum wage rate, workers will have it easier? No one will have to work as hard as they currently do? Free beer in the break room? More paid holidays and longer paid vacations? Why go on vacation. It's more fun to stay at work?
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