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Minimum wage, a character issue.

PIPEWRENCH said:
No Mexico on their southern border driving wages down by working for less money, no benefits, and with no concern for job safety.
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So then how do you explain why Australia has a minimum wage when they don’t border anyone?

Although I assume you were joking. I would be terrified if I thought you honestly believed that’s why we have a minimum wage.
 
pinqy said:
So then how do you explain why Australia has a minimum wage when they don’t border anyone? ...
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Pinqy, you asked the same question regarding Sweden and my answer was that each of the world's industrial nations have something similar to USA's minimum wage rate or they have something that provides a similar cosequence. Permitting what's effectively the nation's minimum wage rate to race down to the least possible market determined purchaing power, would be net detrimental to the individual nations' economic and social well being.

Do you intend to go down the list of UN membership and ask the same question regarding each modern industrial nation? Respectfully, Supposn
 
I'm Supposn said:
OrphanSlug, Correction: What's "PPI"? My interest is for what you mean rather than what you ean. Respectfully, Supposn
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PPI= Producer Price index.
 
I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, you asked the same question regarding Sweden and my answer was that each of the world's industrial nations have something similar to USA's minimum wage rate or they have something that provides a similar cosequence. Permitting what's effectively the nation's minimum wage rate to race down to the least possible market determined purchaing power, would be net detrimental to the individual nations' economic and social well being.

Do you intend to go down the list of UN membership and ask the same question regarding each modern industrial nation? Respectfully, Supposn
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My point, which you seem to have missed, is that claiming the reason for opposing a minimum wage is character deficiency is just weird. As you are now admitting, a national minimum wage is not strictly necessary. In Norway and Sweden it is Union negations that set wage floors.

And in the US, only a minority of states use the Federal minimum wage.

It just bothers me when people over-simplify a complex problem, and it really bothers me when people demonize those who disagree with their political opinion by falsely ascribing evil motives. Many of the arguments against minimum wage are just wrong. But that doesn’t mean the people proposing them are dishonest or have a secret agenda: people can be honestly wrong.

Personally I’ve found most arguments for or against minimum wage to be crap. There are two many variables and sets of circumstance for any generic one-size-fits-all answer.
 
pinqy said:
So then how do you explain why Australia has a minimum wage when they don’t border anyone?

Although I assume you were joking. I would be terrified if I thought you honestly believed that’s why we have a minimum wage.
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I am not joking about Mexico driving down wages. That is a fact not a joke. The rich and powerful have always exploited immigrants in this country to get around paying a decent wage or provide safe working conditions. They did it to my ancestors. My grandfather lost 3 brothers in the mines before they reached the age of 18. My grandfather was injured when rocks from the ceiling fell on him during blasting. Open your eyes and take a look at the real world.

children in the mines.jpg
 
pinqy said:
... As you are now admitting, a national minimum wage is not strictly necessary. In Norway and Sweden it is Union negations that set wage floors. ...
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Pinqy, you are attributing your words to me. I never wrote that the minimum wage rate was unnecessary.
I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, you asked the same question regarding Sweden and my answer was that each of the world's industrial nations have something similar to USA's minimum wage rate or they have something that provides a similar consequence. Permitting what's effectively the nation's minimum wage rate to race down to the least possible market determined purchasing power, would be net detrimental to the individual nations' economic and social well being. ...
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Apparently Norway and Sweden have something that provides a similar consequence as does the federal minimum wage rate. You interpret that to mean the critical need for something such as the minimum wage rate or something that consequentialy provides the consequences of of a minimum wage as unnecessary. Every industrial nations' government's policy, including U.S. federal policy, is based otherwise to your opinion.

[The Union negotiated wages of Norway and Sweden are dependent upon government's enforcing those union's rights to in turn enforce those union contracts. Their unions could not well function if (as in the United States), the national government doesn't protect their rights to organize employees and function on those employees behalf. Some USA's state governments policies are to hinder or prevent labor unions from defending employees interests].

People can and have existed without many things we now consider as important or critical. We could continue existing without our system of roads, or electrical grids, or hospitals; but I wouldn't advocate that our nation should attempt to do so.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
pinqy said:
... And in the US, only a minority of states use the Federal minimum wage. ...
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Pinqy, I suppose you're referring to states that have their own minimum wage rate which exceeds the federal rate?
A state's higher minimum wage rate would be less sustainable, enforceable, and effective if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced or eliminated.

The U.S. Congress did not determine a rate to punish some states; but it prohibits enterprises within the 50 states and the District of Columbia from paying a lesser rate and undermining the economies of any other of those jurisdictions.

The federal minimum wage rate is of use within all U.S. States and the District of Columbia. Respectfully, Supposn
 
I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, you are attributing your words to me. I never wrote that the minimum wage rate was unnecessary.
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I thought you had agreed that the systems in Sweden and Norway adequately protect workers in lieu of a national minimum wage.
To say a minimum wage is strictly necessary means there are no substitutes that could accomplish the same thing.

Apparently Norway and Sweden have something that provides a similar consequence as does the federal minimum wage rate. You interpret that to mean the critical need for something such as the minimum wage rate or something that consequentialy provides the consequences of of a minimum wage as unnecessary.
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And you accused me of putting words in your mouth? That’s almost the opposite of what I’ve been saying, which is: that alternatives that provide the same or similar protections exist means that the the specific solution of a national minimum wage is not strictly necessary to protect workers.


Every industrial nations' government's policy, including U.S. federal policy, is based otherwise to your opinion.
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My actual opinion, or your bizarrely twisted interpretation?
 
I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, I suppose you're referring to states that have their own minimum wage rate which exceeds the federal rate?
A state's higher minimum wage rate would be less sustainable, enforceable, and effective if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced or eliminated.
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I would love to hear your support for that.
 
pinqy said:
I thought you had agreed that the systems in Sweden and Norway adequately protect workers in lieu of a national minimum wage.
To say a minimum wage is strictly necessary means there are no substitutes that could accomplish the same thing.

And you accused me of putting words in your mouth? That’s almost the opposite of what I’ve been saying, which is: that alternatives that provide the same or similar protections exist means that the specific solution of a national minimum wage is not strictly necessary to protect workers. ...
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Pinqy, I did state the reasons why I believe every modern industrial nation should and does have somethings similar to, or provide similar consequences as does USA's minimum wage rate law.

I didn't use the words “necessary” or “not necessary” or “absolute” “or “strictly” regarding a federal minimum wage rate. I later explicitly stated that I did not use the word “unnecessary”.
Your interpretations of my posts are your interpretations of my posts. I'm thankful you're not a judge of any legal case that may be of concern to me.

I did state the reasons why I arrived at those conclusions. Your contention is as you posted, my "bizarrely twisted interpretation" of other nation's laws and practices? In that case I also conclude your opinion is as I posted, based otherwise to that of all those nations including the United States.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
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I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, I suppose you're referring to states that have their own minimum wage rate which exceeds the federal rate?
A state's higher minimum wage rate would be less sustainable, enforceable, and effective if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced or eliminated.

The U.S. Congress did not determine a rate to punish some states, but it prohibits enterprises within the 50 states and the District of Columbia from paying a lesser rate and undermining the economies of any other of those jurisdictions.

The federal minimum wage rate is of use within all U.S. States and the District of Columbia. Respectfully, Supposn
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pinqy said:
I would love to hear your support for that.
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Pinqy, what argument do you make that's contrary to my post #33? Respectfully, Supposn
 
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I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, what argument do you make that's contrary to my post #33? Respectfully, Supposn
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No, that’s not how it works. You made the claim “A state's higher minimum wage rate would be less sustainable, enforceable, and effective if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced or eliminated.” What is your argument to support that claim? I am not aware of anything that has ever happened to support the idea that stricter State protections would be weaker or less effective without weaker Federal law.

Specifically in labor law, there are no federal requirements for breaks, or maximum work hours in a day, or any vacation or leave (other than military service, jury duty, or family medical reasons). But many states have such requirements which are completely enforceable an effective.

So what leads you to the conclusion that if the Federal minimum wage were to disappear, that those state minimum wage laws not dependent on Federal law would be in any way affected?
 
pinqy said:
No, that’s not how it works. You made the claim “A state's higher minimum wage rate would be less sustainable, enforceable, and effective if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced or eliminated.” What is your argument to support that claim? I am not aware of anything that has ever happened to support the idea that stricter State protections would be weaker or less effective without weaker Federal law.

Specifically in labor law, there are no federal requirements for breaks, or maximum work hours in a day, or any vacation or leave (other than military service, jury duty, or family medical reasons). But many states have such requirements which are completely enforceable an effective.

So what leads you to the conclusion that if the Federal minimum wage were to disappear, that those state minimum wage laws not dependent on Federal law would be in any way affected?
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Pinqy, other benefits not grantedby federal law may or may not disappear. Regarding the definite legally enforced federal minimum wage rate: If it were eliminated, experiences within poorer nations lacking any thing that's consequentially similar to USA's effectively enforced minimum rate has demonstrated, (exluding jobs for which theres a scarcity of available and suitable labor), the indefinite market determined minimum wage rate's purchasing power will race to the bottom. Due to the economic comcept of wage differentials, and the mathematical definition of the median value, and the fact that there are generally more employees earning lesser and less employees earning greater wage rates within ours and most other nations, the median wage rate and in aggregate all other all other wage rates' purchasing powers will also be adversely affected.
Furthermore, a USA state's higher definite legal minimum wage is less enforceable, or sustainable, or effective to the extent that other USA states definite or indefinite minimum rates are less.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, other benefits not grantedby federal law may or may not disappear. Regarding the definite legally enforced federal minimum wage rate: If it were eliminated, experiences within poorer nations lacking any thing that's consequentially similar to USA's effectively enforced minimum rate has demonstrated, (exluding jobs for which theres a scarcity of available and suitable labor), the indefinite market determined minimum wage rate's purchasing power will race to the bottom. Due to the economic comcept of wage differentials, and the mathematical definition of the median value, and the fact that there are generally more employees earning lesser and less employees earning greater wage rates within ours and most other nations, the median wage rate and in aggregate all other all other wage rates' purchasing powers will also be adversely affected.
Furthermore, a USA state's higher definite legal minimum wage is less enforceable, or sustainable, or effective to the extent that other USA states definite or indefinite minimum rates are less.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Let’s try again:

You stated: “A state's higher minimum wage rate would be less sustainable, enforceable, and effective if the federal minimum wage rate were reduced or eliminated.” What is your argument to support that claim?

That claim...not the idea that there would be other bad effects......not a restatement of the same claim...the specific bad effect that state minimum wage laws that are not tied to the federal minimum would be less enforceable and effective. What is your evidence for that?

“a USA state's higher definite legal minimum wage is less enforceable, or sustainable, or effective to the extent that other USA states definite or indefinite minimum rates are less.” is just another assertion. What are you basing that claim on??????
 
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pinqy said:
My point, which you seem to have missed, is that claiming the reason for opposing a minimum wage is character deficiency is just weird. ... It just bothers me when people over-simplify a complex problem, and it really bothers me when people demonize those who disagree with their political opinion by falsely ascribing evil motives. Many of the arguments against minimum wage are just wrong. But that doesn’t mean the people proposing them are dishonest or have a secret agenda: people can be honestly wrong.

Personally I’ve found most arguments for or against minimum wage to be crap. There are two many variables and sets of circumstance for any generic one-size-fits-all answer.
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SDET said:
... Your disparaging of people of a different opinion than you is low.
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Pinqy, SDET, and WashUNut, the U.S. Supreme court has upheld the federal minimum wage rate. The U.S. Congress has determined the federal minimum wage rate should be the minimum rate to be enforced equally and throughout the entire USA. They did not choose a rate with the intention of punishing any state's economy and the federal minimum wage rate has not harmed any state.

I have political opinions regarding many issues. Funding is a critical issue regarding many other than economic issues, and economic issues are of my particular political interests. It's not unusual for questions of ethics and morality to become entwined within some political issues. I do not question the patriotism of others because they harbor opinions contrary to my own.

I've reached conclusions regarding topics other than the minimum wage rate, (for examples: national policies regarding gun control, right to life, free speech, medical insurance and its funding, international trade, funding of Social Security retirement benefits). I suppose that I have and I may in the future question some individual's motives, but I haven't arrived at broad discriminatory conclusion with regard to the characters of those opposing my conclusions regarding any issues other than the minimum wage rate.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
I'm Supposn said:
Pinqy, SDET, and WashUNut, the U.S. Supreme court has upheld the federal minimum wage rate. The U.S. Congress has determined the federal minimum wage rate should be the minimum rate to be enforced equally and throughout the entire USA. They did not choose a rate with the intention of punishing any state's economy and the federal minimum wage rate has not harmed any state.
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Did I claim it was unconstitutional or harmful in any way? I have not. So what the hell are you responding to?

You are failing the Turing test...you responses are only loosely related to what I have actually said, so that I really can’t tell if you are a human or a machine.


I suppose that I have and I may in the future question some individual's motives, but I haven't arrived at broad discriminatory conclusion with regard to the characters of those opposing my conclusions regarding any issues other than the minimum wage rate.
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But since that’s the topic we are discussing, it doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do on other topics.
 
I'm Supposn said:
Minimum wage, a character issue. That's the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.
The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation. It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. dollar’s inflation; on the contrary, it’s certainly among inflation's victims.

No employees are poorer and no enterprises suffer any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.

[there’s no doubt that USA’s higher wage rates are among the causes of our products’ price disadvantages in comparison to products from lower-wage nations; but although the elimination of our minimum wage laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic well-being, eliminating it would accomplish extremely little to remedy our products’ global price disadvantages.]

I suppose most USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are much fewer among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.

A great proportion of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge even to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status. That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Lack self esteem? Lol

I want everyone to be able to work. Minimum wage prices some out and creates a maximum wage for others.



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
 
Pinqy, U.S. states with higher wage rates are at a price disadvantage due to cheaper goods from other lower wage rate states. Due to technological advances, particularly increased and improved communications at lesser costs, more service products no longer require they be performed at or nearer the purchasers or users sites. Higher wage states loss of service products production will increase as has losses of goods production.

These trends to the extents of labor cost differences between the states are detrimental to the economies of higher wage rate states. The federal minimum wage does not explicitly, but effectively reduces differences between higher and lower rate states by establishing a minimum rate beyond which the lower wage rate state cannot pass. Eliminating or reducing the federal minimum rate would leave states higher minimum wage rates less enforceable, sustainable, and effective.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
pinqy said:
Did I claim it was unconstitutional or harmful in any way? I have not. So what the hell are you responding to?
You are failing the Turing test...your responses are only loosely related to what I have actually said, so that I really can’t tell if you are a human or a machine. ...
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although my response is addressed to you,it is a publicly published response. You may not question the federal minimum wage rate's constitutionality, but there are others that do not acknowledge it.

Pinqy, I was responding to what you posted as what “really bothers” you.
pinqy said:
My point, which you seem to have missed, is that claiming the reason for opposing a minimum wage is character deficiency is just weird. ...
... and it really bothers me when people demonize those who disagree with their political opinion by falsely ascribing evil motives. Many of the arguments against minimum wage are just wrong. But that doesn’t mean the people proposing them are dishonest or have a secret agenda: people can be honestly wrong. ...
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pinqy said:
But since that’s the topic we are discussing, it doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do on other topics.
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Pinqy, people who know the federal minimum wage rate has been challenged and found to be constitutional;
know it has not harmed any state;
understand how due to the economic concept of wage differential, it affects USA's median wage rate;
understand the mathematical concept of the median value;
but then continue to disregard all of this, (i.e. their knowledge and understanding), and instead continue to be opposed to the federal minimum wage rate, would all be due to their defect of character.

Ignorance can be remedied with information. Our deficiency of character may or may not be overcome in particular instances, almost all of us have sometimes been foolish or even stupid, but there are some that go through their entire lives stupidly unaware and regreting little or nothing they have or have not done.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Eriech said:
Lack self esteem? Lol
I want everyone to be able to work. Minimum wage prices some out and creates a maximum wage for others.
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Eriech, eliminating the federal minimum wage would increase USA jobs, but those additional jobs would almost entirely be performing tasks that previously did not justify the minimum wage rate at extremely lower than the eliminated federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power.

Due to the elimination of the enforced definite federal minimum rate, the indefinite market determined minimum rate will “race to the bottom”, somewhat reducing all other USA wage rates.

Despite the increased jobs that may, (or may not) slightly increase our GDP the reduced purchasing powers of all job's wage rates will increase incidences of poverty and needs for public assistance. Our nation's living standards and the purchasing powers of our governments' tax revenues would also then be reduced.

What did you mean when you wrote, "and creates a maximum wage for others"?

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Raise the minimum wage, but at the same time require everyone to find employment as the sole means of producing their support by completely eliminating government welfare assistance funded by income tax. Only Social Security and Medicare would remain as they have their own revenue source.
 
Individual said:
Raise the minimum wage, but at the same time require everyone to find employment as the sole means of producing their support by completely eliminating government welfare assistance funded by income tax. Only Social Security and Medicare would remain as they have their own revenue source.
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What about people who can't work due to disability from birth?
 
Aristaeus said:
What about people who can't work due to disability from birth?
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Those who in fact are truly incapable of providing their own support due to a physical/mental disability could then be better taken care of.
 
Individual said:
Those who in fact are truly incapable of providing their own support due to a physical/mental disability could then be better taken care of.
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How, if government welfare has been eliminated?
 
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