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Automation

If automation takes all or most of the jobs away and no one has a job, then no one is going to make any money (including manufactures). Perhaps its time to talk about leaving behind wage slavery and looking towards something a bit better? To be clear though, that would not be socialism since socialism centers around workers, and there would be none (or very few at first). Eventually technology will make our current understanding of how an economy works meaningless and frankly primitive.

The transitional period between such societies might be the toughest part. Hah unless thats automated as well. Seriously, I think that working for someone is primitive and just a form of slavery. Total automation of industry would break those chains of slavery. But would be a hard sell to those who own it and those who cannot think outside the box and like giving up their time to get money.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
If automation takes all or most of the jobs away and no one has a job, then no one is going to make any money (including manufactures). Perhaps its time to talk about leaving behind wage slavery and looking towards something a bit better? To be clear though, that would not be socialism since socialism centers around workers, and there would be none (or very few at first). Eventually technology will make our current understanding of how an economy works meaningless and frankly primitive.

The transitional period between such societies might be the toughest part. Hah unless thats automated as well. Seriously, I think that working for someone is primitive and just a form of slavery. Total automation of industry would break those chains of slavery. But would be a hard sell to those who own it and those who cannot think outside the box and like giving up their time to get money.
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Capital will always make money. Everything requires it, and lending it out yields returns. I'm not sure your post has thought that through.

Bottom line, capital will thrive under an automated society. Labor will become evermore less valuable, however. Hence, the need for stiff capital gains taxes.
 
calamity said:
Capital will always make money.
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most people lose money by investing capital so people need a huge potential return before they will take the risk
 
calamity said:
. Labor will become evermore less valuable, however.
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very illiterate of course. We have huge waves of illegals coming across our southern border yet labor in America is making more not less money( more valuable) as automation happens all around us. Isn't thinking fun?
 
FreedomFromAll said:
If automation takes all or most of the jobs
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dear, we have seen new tools being invented for 5000 years and still all 7 billion us have jobs so there is no chance automation tools will take our jobs away. Do you understand?
 
James972 said:
dear, we have seen new tools being invented for 5000 years and still all 7 billion us have jobs so there is no chance automation tools will take our jobs away. Do you understand?
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Yes I understand that you are pretty ignorant on this subject of automation/autonomous manufacturing. We are not talking about a fancy new tool or even millions but, systems and advanced AI's. There will be no need for tool makers or people to work on them. Nor will there be a need to have people manage them. The entire operation will eventually be autonomous.

Reinventing manufacturing with autonomous factories | Genpact

"Example 2: An autonomous self-learning ai-driven steel mill fulfills custom orders without any human intervention"



The world will move on whether you accept it or not.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Okay.

Our issue is still going to be the same with the inverse, or raising federal minimum wage to whatever number. It is reasonable to conclude that automations will continue no matter what labor costs are, but it is also reasonable to conclude that another artificial inflation of those costs will provoke businesses to respond perhaps that much faster with automations making way for needing less labor. We saw this with both the automotive and major appliance industries to the point that automations *and* offshore labor costs ended up being the answer, similar story with basic materials productions.

Our challenge is the assumption that eliminating federal minimum wage will mean automations will stop, we already know that is not a very reasonable conclusion. Take most of the top 10 employers today, arguably 6-7 of which pay at the lower income quintiles. Removing federal minimum wage does not mean those employers will quit looking at these employee less options to doing business.
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OrphanSlug, I contend, and hope you agree, the reducing of the minimum rate's purchasing power, proportional to that of a jobs' rate, more greatly reduces lower-wage, and lesser reduces higher-wage rates.

Your post, (#21), touches, but doesn't explicitly state the economic issues it's referring to.
I concur with many of what I suppose are your post's implied or referred to opinions.

There are generally more of lesser earning and/or qualified people, and less high earners and/or qualified people in the pool of applicants and workers for any specific job, or for any homogeneous jobs' classifications.
Due to the economic concept of wage differentials, reduction of the nation's minimum wage rate to some extent is detrimental to the median-rate and all other of the nation's wage rates.

Eliminating or permitting the federal minimum wage rate to lose purchasing power, will to some extent reduce the purchasing powers of all USA' wages, and will slow, but not stop the progressive drive for a nation to automate. Increased cost of labor does induce more automation and automation is net beneficial to its nation's economy.

Do you agree that we concur? Respectfully, Supposn
 
This is all very well and good, but what will you do when AI-mediated automation decides to go on strike or refuses to do as it's told? Remember, these will be self-learning machines and they may come to very different conclusions than those their creators intended for them to make, concerning their own AI self-interests.

On the other side of the coin, how many humans can realistically be expected to become first-rate designers and technicians of AI-mediated automation? If half the population has an IQ less than 100 then you're going to have some pretty poor designers and technicians or you're going to have to exclude a very large chunk of the population from this new sector of employment while simultaneously unemploying many of these less capable in readily automated jobs in production, management and services.

Then, if self-learning machines can surpass the best of our human thinkers, there is a case to be made for having them design future modes of automation and do technical support for automation which will further marginalise human labour.

AI-mediated automation may also be making decisions which effect our lives personally. Medical decisions, insurance and actuarial decisions, probation and incarceration decisions are already being made by primitive AI and as the field progresses, more and more decisions about our lives will be made for us and without our consent by AI.

This is a Pandora's Box we are prying open right now, one which may have very dire consequences for billions of people around the globe. What price progress?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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KevinKohler said:
I agree.

We need some sort of system that offers a job guarantee, with wages. Tax capital gains and wealth at a specific rate beyond a set amount, tbd by each state, and each state uses that money to ensure a wage guarantee, or a living standard, etc.
With the caveat that that money, or those benefits, must be earned if you are able bodied, doing low skill work involving state/town infrastructure and beautification.
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EvilRoddy, FreedomFromAll, James972, Calamity, and KevinKohler, regarding, the taxing of capital gains: refer to this thread:
I'm Supposn said:
Long term capital gains and income averaging.

Profits due to the sale of anything owned by the seller for at least the full year prior to the sales transaction are granted extraordinary and unjustified tax reductions for their long term capital gain incomes.

I do not argue that incomes of those who continuously reinvest into and strive to nurture their enterprises are MORE worthy but they are CERTAINLY NOT LESS economically worthy than those who choose to “take the money and run”.

Income is income; reduced rates for long term capital gains are unjustified.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

There was an “income averaging” provision within our income tax regulations that mitigated progressive tax rate’s excesses when applied to the filing’s year’s taxable income but only IF the filing year’s taxable income was significantly greater than that of the prior year.

This tax reduction rewarded but was not limited to wealthy investors or those that sold their homes. It benefitted lottery or quiz program winners, sport or entertainment figures, inventors or anyone else that hit ANY KIND of financial jackpot within the taxable year for which they were filing an income tax return. It compensated those who were lucky or daring or devoted years for study or practice of their chosen professions.

It was of no particular benefit to those with comparatively level annual incomes; (such as a Buffett, Romney or your mailman).

I advocate elimination of the long term capital gains tax loophole.
If the U.S. Congress’s opinion a similar tax reduction is called for, I suggest restoring the income averaging provisions within our tax regulations.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Evilroddy said:
This is all very well and good, but what will you do when AI-mediated automation decides to go on strike or refuses to do as it's told? Remember, these will be self-learning machines and they may come to very different conclusions than those their creators intended for them to make, concerning their own AI self-interests.

On the other side of the coin, how many humans can realistically be expected to become first-rate designers and technicians of AI-mediated automation? If half the population has an IQ less than 100 then you're going to have some pretty poor designers and technicians or you're going to have to exclude a very large chunk of the population from this new sector of employment while simultaneously unemploying many of these less capable in readily automated jobs in production, management and services.

Then, if self-learning machines can surpass the best of our human thinkers, there is a case to be made for having them design future modes of automation and do technical support for automation which will further marginalise human labour.

AI-mediated automation may also be making decisions which effect our lives personally. Medical decisions, insurance and actuarial decisions, probation and incarceration decisions are already being made by primitive AI and as the field progresses, more and more decisions about our lives will be made for us and without our consent by AI.

This is a Pandora's Box we are prying open right now, one which may have very dire consequences for billions of people around the globe. What price progress?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I bet the machines would recognize global warming and solve it by eliminating the problem.


Guess who that is.



:)
 
Automation will not destroy the job market.

Automated machinery parts wear out and the industry will require parts, machine shops, programmers, operators, mechanics, warehousing, logistics, transportation, etc. etc. etc.
 
calamity said:
I bet the machines would recognize global warming and solve it by eliminating the problem.


Guess who that is.



:)
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Calamity:

? :shock:

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
This is all very well and good, but what will you do when AI-mediated automation decides to go on strike or refuses to do as it's told?
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see why we say liberalism is based in 100% pure ignorance? OF all the things we have to worry about machines taking refusing to do as they are told is probably dead last. THe liberal IQ is really that low. What hope is there for the planet when democracy gives a voice to liberalism?
 
FreedomFromAll said:
The entire operation will eventually be autonomous.
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wow no people needed at all. What year will it happen? See why we are 100% positive that liberalism is based in 100% ignorance?
 
James972 said:
wow no people needed at all. What year will it happen? See why we are 100% positive that liberalism is based in 100% ignorance?
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The irony is that I am not a liberal or even on the left. ANd quite frankly it has has nothing to do with politics, its just the obvious track that technology is on. You should have read the link that I provided, it was from the industry that I spoke of. In it you would have learned that they have already begun making autonomous factories. But none of that matters to you if this is just an opportunity to attack those damn liberals.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
its just the obvious track that technology is on.
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technology has been skyrocketing for 3000 years replacing 95% of the jobs on earth 10 times over and yet, despite record recent surges in technology, 97% of us are still employed. Now do you see the obvious track??????????????????????
 
FreedomFromAll said:
they have already begun making autonomous factories.
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and yet the stock market is hitting record highs despite 1000's of semi autonomous factories filled with robots as far as the eye can. THe sky is falling the sky is falling!!
 
James972 said:
technology has been skyrocketing for 3000 years replacing 95% of the jobs on earth 10 times over and yet, despite record recent surges in technology, 97% of us are still employed. Now do you see the obvious track??????????????????????
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Also during those 3000 years many jobs and industries died. And other things happened that short sighted ignorant people never thought would ever happen.
 
James972 said:
and yet the stock market is hitting record highs despite 1000's of semi autonomous factories filled with robots as far as the eye can. THe sky is falling the sky is falling!!
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Dude no one is saying that the sky is falling get a grip.
 
calamity said:
I'll run with it :)

Automation is not a boogie man, and it certainly can employ millions of people in high paying professions. I'd much rather see our country full of robot programmers, technicians, engineers and other highly skilled professionals than a hundred guys standing up and down an assembly line tightening screws.
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Me too. But I work maintenance in the photo department of semiconductor manufacturing. And I have to work daily with people who do not possess the proper motivation or attitude to be a programmer, technician, or engineer.
 
I'm Supposn said:
I posted this thread, “automation”, in response to nonsensical assertions that the federal minimum wage should be eliminated because it encourages increasing introduction of automation within our nation.
Respectfully, Supposn
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Except your post does not argue against that. It argues the opposite. Where the lowest wages are there is less need to automate. By increasing the labor costs with the minimum wage the opposite motivation exists.
 
I'm Supposn said:
I posted this thread, “automation”, in response to nonsensical assertions that the federal minimum wage should be eliminated because it encourages increasing introduction of automation within our nation. ...
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Aberration said:
Except your post does not argue against that. It argues the opposite. Where the lowest wages are there is less need to automate. By increasing the labor costs with the minimum wage the opposite motivation exists.
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Aberration, you quoted from my post correctly. Your mind reversed the meaning of my post. You're dyslexic, or simply read too quickly?

I attribute the minimum wage rate and its consequential encouraging introduction of automation within our nation to both be economically beneficial. Respectfully, Supposn
 
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OrphanSlug said:
... and?
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Some ignorant alarmists think automation is going to steal their jobs. Fear of losing their jobs and other irrational fears, like being frightened that the weather is going to change, cause some ignorant fearful people to desperately want to eliminate modern conveniences and comforts, like air conditioning, cars, buses, trains, airplanes, machinery and, in AOC's case, cows which fart.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Also during those 3000 years many jobs and industries died.
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they all died millions of times thanks to new inventions and still we have 97% employment despite, now, more rapid technological advancement than ever in human history so there in 0 evidence to support your libcommie alarmism.
 
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